Erie Triplex Weak Whistle Steam - Resolved!

You’re my Hero!!!!!.      Mine has the same issue.

I can live with it but,  for $2200 you really expect better, especially with a technology that has been used over and over.  

That being said, Lionel did GREAT with the Wheel Slip.

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

So, I would say some type of design issue with Whistle side.  Seems like resister is not staying hot enough.

Guess the triplex will just have weak whistle steam.  What do you want for 2200.00!   HAHA.

The logic is supposed to keep the whistle smoke resistor preheated so you get smoke right away.  One other point is I've found the length of the tubing from the whistle side has an effect on the smoke volume.  The Triplex has one of the longest tubing runs I have seen, that probably accounts for some of the whistle smoke issues.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The logic is supposed to keep the whistle smoke resistor preheated so you get smoke right away.  One other point is I've found the length of the tubing from the whistle side has an effect on the smoke volume.  The Triplex has one of the longest tubing runs I have seen, that probably accounts for some of the whistle smoke issues.

So it must not be keeping it preheated enough. If you keep blowing the whistle then it gets stronger.

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

So it must not be keeping it preheated enough. If you keep blowing the whistle then it gets stronger.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The logic is supposed to keep the whistle smoke resistor preheated so you get smoke right away.  One other point is I've found the length of the tubing from the whistle side has an effect on the smoke volume.  The Triplex has one of the longest tubing runs I have seen, that probably accounts for some of the whistle smoke issues.

Seems the thermistor must play an important part here, depending on its function.  Perhaps if it is more distant from the resistor, the resistor would get hotter in preheat?

Is there enough real estate to stick a small extra smoke unit in there?

So, I decided to go back in.  I moved the Thermistor farther away from the Resister and that in combo with realigning the seal and now the whistle Steam is on par with my other Legacy Engines.  So happy everything works now!

Right now, this is as good as she gets.      An additional Smoke Unit would certainly not hurt.  

using compressed air to clear the tube and running constant whistle for 30-60 seconds ( until my wife said enough) this is what she would do.

You moved the Thermistor? Can you describe to a novice how you did this?

Great tip, and admirable persistence Sean. You mentioned taking the beast apart was quite the adventure, what all is involved? I give up on these things...other than checking to ensure everything is plugged in and there's no pinched wires...am always afraid I'll break something or won't be able to put it back together, like the bipolars for example.

BTW: you and Joe have great-looking layouts!

@Paul Kallus posted:

Great tip, and admirable persistence Sean. You mentioned taking the beast apart was quite the adventure, what all is involved? I give up on these things...other than checking to ensure everything is plugged in and there's no pinched wires...am always afraid I'll break something or won't be able to put it back together, like the bipolars for example.

BTW: you and Joe have great-looking layouts!

Bipolar engines are somewhat of a PITA, especially if you actually have to do real work in there.  I think most recent Lionel Legacy steam is considerably easier to work on.  There are a few that are stinkers, the Vision Line CC2 from 2008 comes to mind.   OTOH, the Vision Line Big Boy is a piece of cake to crack the boiler and get to the smoke units.

@Sean's Train Depot Mabuchi 385 or something bigger? Or Pittman?

How does the gearbox setup look?

@Alabama Joe posted:

You moved the Thermistor?   Can you describe to a novice how you did this?

You remove the PCB from the smoke unit and adjust the spacing of the thermistor to the smoke resistor.  It should be around 3mm to 4mm from the resistor.  If you don't have enough smoke, move it slightly farther away.

@rplst8 posted:

@Sean's Train Depot Mabuchi 385 or something bigger? Or Pittman?

How does the gearbox setup look?

I’d like to know too,….I think the the first two engines are probably powered by a single Cannon, and the engine under the tender is powered by a single 385,…..remember, Pittman hung our hobby out to dry, and raised their prices through the stratosphere, leaving the model makers scrambling for alternatives…..

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You remove the PCB from the smoke unit and adjust the spacing of the thermistor to the smoke resistor.  It should be around 3mm to 4mm from the resistor.  If you don't have enough smoke, move it slightly farther away.

Thank you @gunrunnerjohn

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You remove the PCB from the smoke unit and adjust the spacing of the thermistor to the smoke resistor.  It should be around 3mm to 4mm from the resistor.  If you don't have enough smoke, move it slightly farther away.

Is there a possibility moving the thermistor further away from the heating element will create a situation that can melt stuff?

@MichaelB posted:

Is there a possibility moving the thermistor further away from the heating element will create a situation that can melt stuff?

I suspect there is, but so far I've avoided that.

Not a bad bit of fixin'. Glad you all got this thing figured out so it works as it should. Triplex is not my cup of tea, but I can admire it working as it should can't I?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I suspect there is, but so far I've avoided that.

Then I probably will avoid doing the fix as if it ends up melting something, they will not warranty it. One thing I would do is add zip ties to the hose on the barb end to ensure it will not slip off over time and not cause any leaks

@MichaelB posted:

Then I probably will avoid doing the fix as if it ends up melting something, they will not warranty it. One thing I would do is add zip ties to the hose on the barb end to ensure it will not slip off over time and not cause any leaks

The other end of that spectrum is if the factory spaced the sensor too far away out the gate, …..99% of the scorched legacy smoke units I’ve either rebuilt or replaced due to heavy damage was due to the sensor a mile away from the heating resistor,…….I just repaired a legacy engine with a violently roasted smoke unit, and a dead RCMC, ……the dual smoke unit was just a blob of molten plastic with a couple motors dangling by ooze….

Pat

@MichaelB posted:

Then I probably will avoid doing the fix as if it ends up melting something, they will not warranty it. One thing I would do is add zip ties to the hose on the barb end to ensure it will not slip off over time and not cause any leaks

lol you are only moving it slightly like 1-2mm.  It’s not getting any where close to hot enough originally, so now it’s at right temp.  You could send it in to Lionel I guess.   Hose is tight no need to zip ties.

@harmonyards posted:

The other end of that spectrum is if the factory spaced the sensor too far away out the gate, …..99% of the scorched legacy smoke units I’ve either rebuilt or replaced due to heavy damage was due to the sensor a mile away from the heating resistor,…….I just repaired a legacy engine with a violently roasted smoke unit, and a dead RCMC, ……the dual smoke unit was just a blob of molten plastic with a couple motors dangling by ooze….

Pat

That had to be a major blunder lol.  

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

That had to be a major blunder lol.  

Sean, how’s the driveline built on that Teiplex? ….what’s the magic they do on the engine under the tender?….did you open that up too?..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Sean, how’s the driveline built on that Teiplex? ….what’s the magic they do on the engine under the tender?….did you open that up too?..

Pat

No, I did not open the tender, only worked on what I needed to fix.

The main engine has a single motor on rear wheel set and a drive shaft that drives the front wheels.

The shell splits in 2 and top comes off.  Kind of like the TMCC Hiawatha. 

Once shell is off smoke unit is very easy to remove.

@harmonyards posted:

The other end of that spectrum is if the factory spaced the sensor too far away out the gate, …..99% of the scorched legacy smoke units I’ve either rebuilt or replaced due to heavy damage was due to the sensor a mile away from the heating resistor,…….I just repaired a legacy engine with a violently roasted smoke unit, and a dead RCMC, ……the dual smoke unit was just a blob of molten plastic with a couple motors dangling by ooze….

Pat

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

That had to be a major blunder lol.  

Maybe they are erroring on the side of caution now?

Got my custom run one from Mr Muffins, didn't last 30 minutes before failure, the tender smoke fan stopped as well as the whistle steam, Ended up replacing all 3 smoke fan motors with MTH longer motors and now finally works every time.

Again, to be clear, this was not low smoke fluid or a drop or bubble blocking, the fan motor stopped and was on a dead segment of the armature and no longer self starting. I confirmed using a 5V source after removed. If you spun them by a finger flick they would start and run but not just applying power.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Got my custom run one from Mr Muffins, didn't last 30 minutes before failure, the tender smoke fan stopped as well as the whistle steam, Ended up replacing all 3 smoke fan motors with MTH longer motors and now finally works every time.

Again, to be clear, this was not low smoke fluid or a drop or bubble blocking, the fan motor stopped and was on a dead segment of the armature and no longer self starting. I confirmed using a 5V source after removed. If you spun them by a finger flick they would start and run but not just applying power.

I wonder if it's a lack of lubrication from the factory. With as noisy as the fans are in my new PRR M1, I wonder if it might be a good idea to lube them before they fail like yours did.

@rplst8 posted:

I wonder if it's a lack of lubrication from the factory. With as noisy as the fans are in my new PRR M1, I wonder if it might be a good idea to lube them before they fail like yours did.

Doubt it, the more than likely cause is a low bid vendor.

Pat

@rplst8 posted:

I wonder if it's a lack of lubrication from the factory. With as noisy as the fans are in my new PRR M1, I wonder if it might be a good idea to lube them before they fail like yours did.

They're supposed to have oilite bearings, and require no lubrication.  It can't hurt to put a drop of oil on them, but the bearing that really needs it is inside the smoke unit, so you have to remove the PCB, yank the impeller, and then you can put that drop of oil on that bearing.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Got my custom run one from Mr Muffins, didn't last 30 minutes before failure, the tender smoke fan stopped as well as the whistle steam, Ended up replacing all 3 smoke fan motors with MTH longer motors and now finally works every time.

Again, to be clear, this was not low smoke fluid or a drop or bubble blocking, the fan motor stopped and was on a dead segment of the armature and no longer self starting. I confirmed using a 5V source after removed. If you spun them by a finger flick they would start and run but not just applying power.

I have never had to replace a motor.  I have had noisy ones and ones giving the cab blink.  It is always just a fan that is stuck.  They do not have enough torque to overcome any resistance.  So either dirt, gummed up smoke fluid, dry shaft, etc.  All I do is take a can of Deoxit, slide the spray tube over the shaft, give it a burst.  The I do same with wd40.  Works every time.  I had my legacy M1a and hadn’t run it in a year.  Getting the Cab blink. Did the above and it’s was working again. Has worked ever since.

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

I have never had to replace a motor.

I've replaced a number of smoke motors.  If the motor draws more than around 40-45ma, it'll start tripping the Legacy fault detector in never Legacy engines.  I've also had them squealing so loud, even after some lube they needed to be replaced.

Never say never!

@gunrunnerjohn had to replace my new legacy L1 Mikado smoke fan motor,  it started off quiet then would squeal like a stuck pig.  Noisy smoke units & lionel go together like peanut butter & jelly.  I really loathe getting a new lionel engine because I know ill get a noisy smoke unit.  If its a diesel ill usually lube it, but steam engines I won't attempt.

@tom21pa posted:

@gunrunnerjohn had to replace my new legacy L1 Mikado smoke fan motor,  it started off quiet then would squeal like a stuck pig.  Noisy smoke units & lionel go together like peanut butter & jelly.  I really loathe getting a new lionel engine because I know ill get a noisy smoke unit.  If its a diesel ill usually lube it, but steam engines I won't attempt.

For most Lionel smoke I can use the MTH smoke motors, they seem to be a better quality.  There are some Lionel steam that has the short motor and the longer one won't fit, so you have to use the Lionel motor.  Lionel smoke motors have improved, there was a run of them around 10 years ago that I swear that at least half of them failed right out of the box!  I was buying MTH motors 25 at a time to keep up with the demand!

@Sean's Train Depot or @gunrunnerjohn when you have time can you post some pictures showing how to open the triplex's engine shell (screw locations)?

@ntn-pa posted:

@Sean's Train Depot or @gunrunnerjohn when you have time can you post some pictures showing how to open the triplex's engine shell (screw locations)?

I haven't opened mine yet, so I haven't looked.

It's 6 screws. 2 under the cab area, and then 2 more up front on the boiler. You have to swing the front engine drive set to access those 2 front screws. It's the one that is recessed, and then the top half of the boiler and cab lift off. You can unplug the TMCC/Legacy antenna 2 wire connector and then the other connector at the distribution board in the boiler shell.

The screws circled in red are the 6 screws holding the upper shell and cab to the lower chassis. The ones at the front with the X are just to show that is not the correct screw for the boiler shell- they are the trim pieces/piping.

EDIT- this picture for the right front (when upside down) did not upload the first time.

The tender is also 6 screws, 4 are relatively obvious, the 2 are hidden and need a longer #2 screwdriver to poke down between the crosshead and the wheel. You may also need to rotate the wheels to clock it so the connecting rod is out of the way (it is back driveable gearing).

Again 6 for the engine, and 6 for the tender.

Soooooooooooo, ……what’s in the tender!?….how did they make the slipping engine work?….inquiring minds wanna know!…

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Soooooooooooo, ……what’s in the tender!?….how did they make the slipping engine work?….inquiring minds wanna know!…

Pat

Hey Pat, please contact me about my project. I've sent you multiple emails...Just looking for an update.

@harmonyards posted:

Soooooooooooo, ……what’s in the tender!?….how did they make the slipping engine work?….inquiring minds wanna know!…

Pat

Ditto! I still won't have mine for a few days. It looks simple enough to open but the extra wheel set on the tender has me second guessing myself.

@BillYo414 posted:

Ditto! I still won't have mine for a few days. It looks simple enough to open but the extra wheel set on the tender has me second guessing myself.

It’s like these cats are teasing us, …..no??……enough of the growing pains, let’s see the baby!!?

Pat