Feedback wanted: 30x24.5 club layout project

The storage on plan 1 is hard to beat. Plan 3 does look fun though, maybe add a TT to the blue loop for some engine storage.

Looks like your club is only into loop running.  I would have thought a club would be able to do realistic operations with industrial switching destinations.

Looks good!!! My two cents try to make everything easily accessible!!! You won't regret it.

@ogaugenut posted:

Looks like your club is only into loop running.  I would have thought a club would be able to do realistic operations with industrial switching destinations.

Well, we can add industries later. This is just to get the basic track plan down.

My 2c...any kind of duck under is either going to keep the public out of an area as theyll be unsure if they're supposed to be in there, or its going to be bonked ALOT unless its of sufficient height.  I would consider making the duck under unnecessary for public running but could be in place for club running only.

Well, I've cooked up a fourth plan, and it may be my favorite! I wanted to experiment with utilizing the full 12-foot width on the East end, and I really, really like the result! I was even able to include a removable Thomas layout for shows.

Stats:
- Dogbone (Yellow): 88ft
- Super Oval (Blue): 114.5ft
- Loop (Red): 81ft
- Ramp Grade: 4.0%
- Yard (Purple): 72.5ft

- Thomas Figure 8 (Black): 20ft
- Thomas Loop (Orange): 21.5ft

Pros:
- Thomas show layout is integrated
- MASSIVE Walk-in area
- Natural Tunnel returns!
- Two loops on the upper level, which I think I like better for balancing reasons
- The swooping curves on the West side of the layout are really mesmerizing, especially when you're going across the bridge on the Super Oval, through Natural Tunnel, up the Ramp, and back across the bridge on the Dogbone.
- Bridge actually goes over the Yard
- Every switch except for the reverse loop on the West wall is within 3 feet of the layout edge (so likely only need one access hole)

Cons:
- Steep ramp
- Relatively small yard
- Each track requires a liftout bridge
- City space will likely bite into the Yard walk-in significantly

Honestly, this is probably the plan I'm going to push with my club. Let me know what y'all think!

What are the curve sizes?

Aside from the Thomas bit, everything is O-72 minimum!

For club running if you plan on having a lot of visitors, I suggest you not have any duck-unders or lift-bridges that visitors have to access!  You're just asking for trouble.

Not a good idea to have a bridge over the yard.  People are always placing or removing cars from a yard and no one wants to work around a bridge to place cars in a yard.

I'm in full agreement with @gunrunnerjohn and @John Cubic.  Very good and wise advice.

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

Well, I've cooked up a fourth plan, and it may be my favorite! I wanted to experiment with utilizing the full 12-foot width on the East end, and I really, really like the result! I was even able to include a removable Thomas layout for shows.

Stats:
- Dogbone (Yellow): 88ft
- Super Oval (Blue): 114.5ft
- Loop (Red): 81ft
- Ramp Grade: 4.0%
- Yard (Purple): 72.5ft

- Thomas Figure 8 (Black): 20ft
- Thomas Loop (Orange): 21.5ft

Pros:
- Thomas show layout is integrated
- MASSIVE Walk-in area
- Natural Tunnel returns!
- Two loops on the upper level, which I think I like better for balancing reasons
- The swooping curves on the West side of the layout are really mesmerizing, especially when you're going across the bridge on the Super Oval, through Natural Tunnel, up the Ramp, and back across the bridge on the Dogbone.
- Bridge actually goes over the Yard
- Every switch except for the reverse loop on the West wall is within 3 feet of the layout edge (so likely only need one access hole)

Cons:
- Steep ramp
- Relatively small yard
- Each track requires a liftout bridge
- City space will likely bite into the Yard walk-in significantly

Honestly, this is probably the plan I'm going to push with my club. Let me know what y'all think!

Could move the green line closer to the blue line so that a) it doesn't pass over the yard and b) both lines could use one bridge.

I'm assuming that visitors would move around the outside and members would be inside to operate the trains, so having duckunders for visitors shouldn't be a problem.  If you're planning to have visitors duck to step inside, expect accidents. 

I like the oval and figure 8 at the end for running Thomas stuff.  It can also be used for old or unusual items.

Just curious - where is your club located?

My major reservation with the the 4th plan is the lack of yard space.  I think you'll find that you never have enough yard space.

Thanks all for the feedback! I've tweaked the plan to try to mitigate some issues. I also went into Photoshop for a quick mockup of the room. Black trim/area are external walls, dark grey areas are other layouts.

Changes:
- Made the Blue Super Oval not require a liftout bridge.
- Reworked the Yard to both A) be more focused on spur tracks than the yard lead and B) be more easily accessible (Arr/Dep and first 2 tracks reached from Operator Area, longer tracks from Public area. Since the flyover bridge is a specific request of one of the members (note that we only have five O Gauge members), it has to stay.
- This also gives a designated Operating Area
- Note that the Red track becomes an alternate mainline during open houses (realized I forgot the second crossover required for this on the West Wall), turning the yellow track from a true dogbone to a dogbone-esque loop. This should allow four-train operation during open houses (two on the Blue and two on the red/yellow combo)
- Also noted access holes and general scenery plans
- Industries will be added later

New Stats:
- Dogbone (Yellow): 89ft
- Super Oval (Blue): 107ft
- Loop (Red): 81.5ft
- Alternate Dogbone (Red-Yellow Combo): 109ft

Mallard: We're based in Worthington, Ohio, north of Columbus

Along with others, I recommend absolutely no duckunders or lift bridges, etc. Any plan for group or public viewing must have totally walk-in access to all areas.

If you don't want to do away with the route across the aisle, go for something really spectacular.

Make the bridge across the aisle tall enough for an adult to walk under without crouching.  Think more vertical. This would give you the opportunity for truly impressive scenery.

Jim

@Jim Policastro posted:

Along with others, I recommend absolutely no duckunders or lift bridges, etc. Any plan for group or public viewing must have totally walk-in access to all areas.

Jim

For the sake of clarity, here's my plan for the Open House configuration. Note that the area behind the yellow lift bridge would be members only.

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

...

Mallard: We're based in Worthington, Ohio, north of Columbus

Thanks.  Not nearby, but close enough for a visit down the road - please post updates regarding your progress.

One of the members wanted to see a version using Atlas track instead of FasTrack, so here is that.

I commend your intent to use Lionel's FasTrack. That system offers a variety of track sections and curvatures.  I know, FasTrack is difficult to custom cut "fitter" pieces, if needed.  Tip: to enhance the look of the roadbed of FasTrack,  apply a thinned-down wash of India Ink to the roadbed then wipe it off, leaving enough ink to accent the "gravel" of the roadbed.

There are many hobbyists who favor Atlas O track, probably for its realism -- especially if/when ballasted. My local train club used Atlas track, but the spring-loaded switches were sometimes a source of derailments. However, a "kit" can electrify a switch for goof-proof anti-derail operation.  IMHO, well worth the added expense.

Layout height:  decide the height of the layout platform, bearing in mind the viewing perspective of kids in families: probably 36 to 42 inches at Level  One.

To optimize viewing for visitors, provide adequate aisle space all around the layout.  I predict your proposed layout (whichever one you construct) will become a major attraction for families - especially at Christmas time. Santa knows Christmas and toy trains go together; like the cookies and milk set out for his visit.

Make it easy for visitors to take photos of the layout with their kids included in the shots.  Photo tip: mount some small PHOTO OPP signs at best sites around the layout.

The THOMAS layout will be an attraction for youngsters. The track plan is appropriately simple, so consider making control of those trains a hands-on experience for kids. The THOMAS trains are available with LionChief technology and the hand-held, color-coded  controllers are easy to use.  Kids will love being a JUNIOR ENGINEER during their visit - much more engaging than passive watching trains going around in circles.  PR tip: create a JUNIOR ENGINEER ID card with punch-outs and give a card to each visiting kid to show their experience operating all four THOMAS series trains:  Thomas,  James, Percy, Diesel.  At each Open House event, change the locos in use that day, so families are incentivized to return so that their kid can punch-out his card with all four trains, as: "collect them all" -- a marketing tactic borrowed from cereal box top offers.  When the ID card is completed, the kid gets a modest prize. The more return trips, the more likely that families may consider JOINING the club (paying dues, doing volunteer work, helping out, advancing the hobby in mid-Ohio).

Carry on, regardless ...

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394
Former Resident of Columbus, OH

Your space invites a conflict over curve radii/diameters.  Wider values allow more realistic operation, yet restrict the complexity and variations of the track plan.  Narrower values allow more route variation within the given space, but discourage use of larger locomotives and passenger cars.  So an early question in this is what your maximum locomotive and passenger car sizes will be.  As you approach 21" car length, 96 inch diameter curves and larger become a necessity to minimize toy-like appearance.  But 72" diameter is practical with 15" cars. They won't be prototypical, but they won't seem so toy-like in operation.  A compromise is to use wide radii/diameters for outer loop(s) and lesser for inner loops, assigning trains accordingly.  That would facilitate the use of the layout by the widest variety of club members.  But if your membership is mostly of the "traditional O gauge" and collector variety, the larger radii/diameter curves may not matter.

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

Well, we can add industries later. This is just to get the basic track plan down.

BIG MISTAKE. If you want to run protoypically with industries and switching, that must be designed in from the beginning. You cannot take a layout designed for Loop Running and magically make it into a switching  layout.

Since you are planning to use Fastrack, and all your designs are based on Loop Running, focus on that and make it a good Loop Running layout.

One more operational detail you should consider, and that is making sure your main yard has a switching lead. It will add a lot of operational enjoyment to the layout.

Watch this video…

Mike: Thanks for the affirmation! I also personally love FasTrack, and if it were up to me, we would use it. It's just good to also have this option in our back pocket. One additional downside of Atlas is the lack of 11.25° curves in higher radii, which was actually decently limiting in trying to recreate the FasTrack plan

@Mike H Mottler posted:

My local train club used Atlas track, but the spring-loaded switches were sometimes a source of derailments. However, a "kit" can electrify a switch for goof-proof anti-derail operation.  IMHO, well worth the added expense.

Thanks for the tip! I'll be sure to mention this if we move forward with Atlas.

Karl: Appreciate the input! My goal is O-72 minimum, but using wider radii when possible. I agree that even O-72 curves can be "too tight," but considering we're upgrading from O-36 maximum, I'll take what I can get. I'll look for ways to sneak more high-radius stuff in there.

Rich: I plan on using the curved entrance to the yard on the East side as the Switching Lead. It's 11 feet long, and the longest yard track is 12 feet, so it should be a good fit! Also, operationally, it is intended to primarily be a loop layout; the industries are more of a secondary attraction.

Hey all, just wanted to share the semi-final track plans! Ended up making both an Atlas and FasTrack version.

Differences from last version:
- Removed Thomas section; that'll be in another room.
- Added Subway line
- Added four hidden storage tracks, two in the skinny peninsula, with a ramp behind where the town will be, and two inside the main mountain
- Added industries! Note that I'm imagining a street-running scene for the large one by the yard.

Atlas:

FasTrack: