finding traction tires for older / out-of-production locomotives

I pulled this off a forum post last year.  

EDIT:  No guarantees of accuracy.  Pat has pointed out errors in at least the Williams, Weaver, and 3rd Rail  listings.

Bob

Replacement rubber tires

TYPE	MAKER	ENGINE P/N	WHEEL DIAMETER	MTH TT P/N	LIONEL TT P/N	ATLAS TT P/N
0-6-0	MTH	30-1500-1	27mm	DE0000023
2-8-0	MTH		32mm	DE0000023
2-8-0	MTH		32mm	DE0000023
2-8-2	Williams/Samhongsa	brass	33mm	25
2-8-2	Williams/Samhongsa	brass	33mm	25
4-6-0	Weaver chassis		35mm	27
4-6-2	Williams/Samhongsa	brass	39mm	31
4-6-2	Williams/Samhongsa	brass	39mm	31
4-6-2	Williams by Bachmann		35mm	27
4-8-2	Lionel	diecast	35mm	27	6000242206 1"d.048"t.118"w
4-8-4	Williams/Samhongsa	brass	38mm	31
NW2	MTH	30-2669-1	22mm	DE0000018
RS3	Weaver		21mm	DE0000018
RS3	MTH	30-2235-0	22mm	DE0000018
F3A	Atlas O	1647-1	21mm	DE0000018		680505
GP9	Lionel		21mm	DE0000018	600022108
GP9	Atlas O		21mm	DE0000018		680505
E7	3rd Rail		18mm	DE0000018
E7	Williams		22mm	DE0000018

Here is a better chart.  It lists dimensions of all the MTH Traction tires and the wheel diameter ranges that they will fit. So you just measure the driver and select the proper size.

Bob

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MTH P/N	DE-0000014	DE-0000015	DE-0000018	DE-0000023	DE-0000025	DE-0000027	DE-0000031	DE-0000036	DE-0000041
TIRE O.D.	14.0mm	15.0mm	17.0mm	22.1mm	24.4mm	26.9mm	30.3mm	36.0mm	41mm
TIRE WIDTH	4.0mm	4.0mm	4.0mm	3.5mm	3.5mm	3.5mm	3.5mm	3.4mm	3.4mm
Wheel Diameter	17mm	18mm	22mm	27-30mm	32-33mm	35-37mm	38.5-42mm

@Mallard4468 posted:

Seeing recent want-to-buy posts about finding traction tires got me to thinking...

Considering that finding parts is becoming more difficult and there might be a concern about new-old-stock traction tires deteriorating over time (not looking to restart that conversation), I'm wondering what options are available for older or out-of-production locomotives.  Does a cross-reference or size chart exist that shows what tires will fit other engines?  Are there any non-train products that can be substituted?

Sorry if this has already been covered, but searching the forum for "traction tire" yields an unmanageable number of results.  Hoping that some of the parts gurus can chime in.

What I have started to do is take a wheel measurement than look for aftermarket, it should be just below in size. If the only one’s available are one size too small than but them in hot water for about 10 minutes. Than stretch them on. I have found it works fine.

I think if MTH ever does close up shop then it would be wise for Lionel to buy the rights to the MTH traction tire supplier.

@romiller49 posted:

I think if MTH ever does close up shop then it would be wise for Lionel to buy the rights to the MTH traction tire supplier.

I think the real issue is none of these manufacturers really care one way or another if you can get parts. The whole mantra has become buy new buy new.

I've cut down a few sets of tires for stuff like Williams and Weaver brass.  It's almost always the width that's the issue, so I trim them to fit.

@RRDOC posted:

I pulled this off a forum post last year.  

Bob

Replacement rubber tires

TYPE	MAKER	ENGINE P/N	WHEEL DIAMETER	MTH TT P/N	LIONEL TT P/N	ATLAS TT P/N
0-6-0	MTH	30-1500-1	27mm	DE0000023
2-8-0	MTH		32mm	DE0000023
2-8-0	MTH		32mm	DE0000023
2-8-2	Williams/Samhongsa	brass	33mm	25
2-8-2	Williams/Samhongsa	brass	33mm	25
4-6-0	Weaver chassis		35mm	27
4-6-2	Williams/Samhongsa	brass	39mm	31
4-6-2	Williams/Samhongsa	brass	39mm	31
4-6-2	Williams by Bachmann		35mm	27
4-8-2	Lionel	diecast	35mm	27	6000242206 1"d.048"t.118"w
4-8-4	Williams/Samhongsa	brass	38mm	31
NW2	MTH	30-2669-1	22mm	DE0000018
RS3	Weaver		21mm	DE0000018
RS3	MTH	30-2235-0	22mm	DE0000018
F3A	Atlas O	1647-1	21mm	DE0000018		680505
GP9	Lionel		21mm	DE0000018	600022108
GP9	Atlas O		21mm	DE0000018		680505
E7	3rd Rail		18mm	DE0000018
E7	Williams		22mm	DE0000018

Whoever made this chart is wrong, and it will steer folks to parts that won’t exactly fit ….Both Williams & Weaver ( some 3rd Rail ) brass engines use an extremely narrow tire. As mentioned by John, trimming MTH tires to fit does work, but it’s tedious, and you’ll need to have a few spares to get it right. You can stretch them over a socket, and trim them, but as is they will not fit right …….

Pat

Well, many moons ago, on this forum, a fellow suggested using high temperature RTV, the kind you get at an auto parts store.  Even though it is red, I tried it and it does work.  Use a pop-sickle stick or toothpick to smooth it into the groove and give it plenty of time to set up.  Don't try and clean it up if you make a minor mistake, when it is dry it is easy to cut out any sloppiness and leave a nice, albeit red, tire, which does get black as you make miles.

I've perfected my trimming technique and it works pretty well.  I start with a pair of side cutters and cut a chunk the right width off the tire.  Then I use my little scissors to carefully cut around the tire at the same width.  It actually works better than I expected when I first did it.  They don't have to be truly perfect, but the closer to filling the groove, the better and longer they'll last.

I agree, do not stretch the tire before you put it on, and then only stretch it as much as required to get it on.

I 3D print my own out of TPU filament. I changed my slicer program over to Cura and now have much nicer prints (no nubs) after my first few experiments. My Legacy Y6b has a full set of my TPU tires with many, many laps around the layout pulling a decent consist of heavy diecast hoppers with no problems. 3rd Rail has many odd size tires and Scott wants $20 a set if he has them. The ability to make my own has been pretty cool!

Thanks to all who chimed in, with special appreciation to those who have found "non-train" solutions.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Sorry if this has already been covered, but searching the forum for "traction tire" yields an unmanageable number of results.  Hoping that some of the parts gurus can chime in.

I hear ya, but ...

It does for a reason: There is no consensus, and none has ever been built over the life of our forum, as you can see by the number of hits that the search function returns and their non-converging responses.

You can also see, from the additional responses you've received to your original post above, that nothing's changed recently.

Then why did you ask?  Were you hoping for miracle?

Unfortunately, there is none.

In fact it's actually worse than it seems.  There are plenty of folks who suggest that traction tires are evil, that manufacturers use them to cover their design flaws, and that if they did their job correctly traction tires wouldn't be necessary.

With this line of thought your only solution is to replace your grooved wheels with new ones having no grooves.

Sorry that there's been no consensus -- it seems that we'll just have to keep muddling through.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

I hear ya, but ...

It does for a reason: There is no consensus, and none has ever been built over the life of our forum, as you can see by the number of hits that the search function returns and their non-converging responses.

You can also see, from the additional responses you've received to your original post above, that nothing's changed recently.

Then why did you ask?  Were you hoping for miracle?

Unfortunately, there is none.

In fact it's actually worse than it seems.  There are plenty of folks who suggest that traction tires are evil, that manufacturers use them to cover their design flaws, and that if they did their job correctly traction tires wouldn't be necessary.

With this line of thought your only solution is to replace your grooved wheels with new ones having no grooves.

Sorry that there's been no consensus -- it seems that we'll just have to keep muddling through.

Mike

I'm actually very pleased with the responses.  3-D printing, RTV, etc. - never would have thought about those ideas.  A creative bunch here...

My comment about difficulty searching wasn't related to the lack of consensus - "traction tire" just appears in too many posts because it's such a common phrase, and I didn't want to sift through hundreds of posts about "how do I replace a traction tire on a (insert engine name here)?".

Rubber tires are evil! Evil, I tell ya! 

I would give a Nobel Prize in Chemistry to someone who comes up with a metal filler (ok, probably not JB Weld) that you could pack into the groove where the rubber tire used to go, that would set up smooth and hard.  +Prototypical wheelspin, better electrical pickup, less slowing on tight curves, and no more tire replacements--EVER!

Of course, if the locos were designed a little differently and the manufacturers supplied a metal-tired replacement wheelset in the box (as MTH has done with its HO steam locomotives since they were first offered), you could just use that and we wouldn't be having this conversation over and over.  Come on Lionel and MTH, give us a choice in this matter!!

@harmonyards posted:

Whoever made this chart is wrong, and it will steer folks to parts that won’t exactly fit ….Both Williams & Weaver ( some 3rd Rail ) brass engines use an extremely narrow tire. As mentioned by John, trimming MTH tires to fit does work, but it’s tedious, and you’ll need to have a few spares to get it right. You can stretch them over a socket, and trim them, but as is they will not fit right …….

Pat

Thanks Pat.   I didn't intend to repeat mis-information.   Or is it Dis-information?  

Words are very confusing these days . . .

Post is updated.

Bob

@RRDOC posted:

Thanks Pat.   I didn't intend to repeat mis-information.   Or is it Dis-information?  

Words are very confusing these days . . .

Post is updated.

Bob

That’s cool Bob!…..nice job!….now folks are informed when they use the search engine in the future……😉

Pat

@Ted S posted:

I would give a Nobel Prize in Chemistry to someone who comes up with a metal filler (ok, probably not JB Weld) that you could pack into the groove where the rubber tire used to go, that would set up smooth and hard.  +Prototypical wheelspin, better electrical pickup, less slowing on tight curves, and no more tire replacements--EVER!

Here I didn't realize that you were in charge of awarding the Nobel Prizes, learn something every day.

Actually, handing out the prizes is my job, and my Nobel Prize in Chemistry would be for someone that would invent a permanent traction tire that never needs replacement.

Your idea has already been done, look at most of the wheels on your locomotives, no grooves!   No prize material there...

@romiller49 posted:

I think if MTH ever does close up shop then it would be wise for Lionel to buy the rights to the MTH traction tire supplier.

Maybe now? I have seen many Lionel engines where the tires are so thick they rub on the fake brake shoes. The last ones we received for an F3 were so thick they were instead immediately replaced with MTH ones which seem to be much, much thinner.

Yep, it's been stated many times here, some of the Lionel tires are really way too thick.  I've had multiple instances with both steam and diesel where the Lionel tires were rubbing on the brake shoes and causing issues.  I stock lots of MTH tires, I normally don't bother with the Lionel tires.

here is a great traction tire chart!

Alan

@Alan Mancus posted:

here is a great traction tire chart!

Alan

How about the latest one from MTH?

MTH TRACTION TIRE CHART_REVISED_ALL

I simply cannot understand why Lionel engineers would tolerate the embarrassment of using another train company’s product to fix a Lionel problem. I don’t know how some of these people keep their jobs.

@romiller49 posted:

I simply cannot understand why Lionel engineers would tolerate the embarrassment of using another train company’s product to fix a Lionel problem. I don’t know how some of these people keep their jobs.

I don't understand why they make some of the tires so fat, this has been an ongoing issue for years.