Help On Bracket Spacing For Shelf Layout & Shelf Thickness

I'm not that familiar with using a composite board for shelving.  But, for example, if you were using plywood I would use a ripped 3/4" sheet 13" deep you could probably get away with 2' wide spacing for the supports.

Rick

My personal choice is 5/4" x 10" bull nose yellow pine that's used for stair treads.  My brackets are spaces @ 32" with ZERO flex.  This isn't the pressure treated wood that you find at the big box store.  Most lumber yards carry it. Mine carries it in lengths to 16'.  

You may find this of help.  

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/

You can play with the numbers to figure out what you need for any bracket spacing or shelf material.  

Generally speaking a solid wood will be stronger than a ply, OSB, or MDF product for shelving.  

You can also look into using a simple edging strip to substantially increase the load the shelf will take and/or the distance between supports.  

An option could also be to use brackets that mount to the top side of the shelf if having nothing below is the goal.  You may have to custom build something such that the trains cam pass through the bracket, but it would clean up the look from below.  

JGL

This is particle board shelving, 12 " X 10', a standard product, used mostly for residential closet shelving.  The brackets are closet brackets, the hook would be  a center support for a  the hanger rod.

The brackets are adjustable to allow for the wall cleat, or it can be set for a straight wall without the cleat.  We did get some larger shelving, (23 1/2"), for the closet, we installed in the garage, when the train room was done.   My contractor was a kitchen/bathroom remodeler, who had access to cabinet material.   

While I don't have a shelf layout, I have plenty of shelves around the house and in the garage. Some of the shelves are 7' long 1x12 MDF planks supported by 2 brackets in the middle 4' apart and a 1x2 strip along the back edge for strength. They have been loaded with stuff a lot heavier than trains for over 20 years with no sign of sagging. There are also similar shelves in the pantry that are 5' long with 1x2 strips along the back and sides for support. I believe the key is the 1x2 strip, so if you use manufactured material, I suggest you consider modifying your bracket to incorporate such a strip.

The biggest problem I see is your desire to use 13" wide shelves. How do you intend to get to 13"? Rip 3/4" plywood and add a edging to make it look nice? Add a wider edge to a 1x12? Join 2 boards and rip them to 13"? I think the simplest way is to rip plywood, add an edging strip and modify your bracket to include the 1x2 support along the back so you can space the brackets further apart or simply space the brackets closer together. If you add the support strip along the back, I don't see why you couldn't space brackets 4'-6' apart with 3/4" plywood.

I get wanting dual tracks, but I have 10' ceilings, so I'm trying to envision how much of the train along the wall I'd be able to see on a lower 13" shelf, especially while sitting. You didn't say how high your ceilings are, but based on the photos I assume they're 8'.

the inside train would have to be elevated I would think about 4" so your shelf would have to be at least 10" from the ceiling I would say. 

On a side note...where did you get that bridge? I really like it.

luvtrains posted:

On a side note...where did you get that bridge? I really like it.

I've had it for about 18 years.  I purchased it at a hobby shop in the west suburbs of St. Louis.

DoubleDAZ posted:

 

I get wanting dual tracks, but I have 10' ceilings, so I'm trying to envision how much of the train along the wall I'd be able to see on a lower 13" shelf, especially while sitting. You didn't say how high your ceilings are, but based on the photos I assume they're 8'.

The ceilings are 9'.  I'm afraid this will sound odd, but I've actually wondered if I could have some sort of tall stool or something similar created that would allow me to sit at eye level to the track.   You simply have to be creative with a smaller house, two adults and four children.  It's a shelf or nothing but the Christmas tree circle 6 weeks a year.

Nine foot high triple tracks are "stair-stepped" so small types could view trains from floor level. Dual track shelf  below is 7'-6" high. Ceiling is 18' h.

mopac01 posted:

The ceilings are 9'.  I'm afraid this will sound odd, but I've actually wondered if I could have some sort of tall stool or something similar created that would allow me to sit at eye level to the track.   You simply have to be creative with a smaller house, two adults and four children.  It's a shelf or nothing but the Christmas tree circle 6 weeks a year.

I feel your pain. I'm finally getting a 10x12 space for a layout and can't wait to get started. There's a lot of good info being posted here, especially the suggestion to raise the inside track. Dewey's photo shows what a difference raising one track would make.

I was looking at MDF but had a woodworking friend tell me he'd be worried about sagging over time.  He recommended for only slightly more cost than MDF I go with baltic birch plywood.  Locally I can get it in 4'x8' sheets at a 5/8" thickness.  I can only get 3/4" thickness in 5'x5' sheets locally.  I'm thinking about going with the 5/8" thickness and having the sheets ripped to 13" deep planks and I'll space the supports at 4' intervals.

Hmmmm!!!!  I agree with whoever said about the rear cleat especially if you are going to go 4' wide on your bracket spacing with 5/8" plywood and not 3/4" ply.  You only need 1 x 2 or 1 x 3 wood for the cleat.  You would need to modify the bracket you showed in your pics by cutting out a space for the cleat on the top rear of your bracket.  Or just run the cleat up to each side of the bracket but not behind the bracket.

Good luck,  Rick

JohnGaltLine posted:

You may find this of help.  

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/

You can play with the numbers to figure out what you need for any bracket spacing or shelf material.  

Generally speaking a solid wood will be stronger than a ply, OSB, or MDF product for shelving.  

 

I was really encouraged by this sagulator.  However I was originally looking at MDF until a woodworking friend strongly cautioned against MDF based on the weight of it and a concern he had that it would tend to sag over time.  He was a big proponent of baltic plywood, which a little Googling has suggested is baltic BIRCH plywood.  Unfortunately, I can't find baltic birch in the sagulator above.

The other question is how many pounds per running foot?  My pullmor NW2 is probably 3-4 lbs.  If doubled that for 2 engines and added some margin for the Atlas O track (two tracks side by side) I would think 15 lbs per running foot would be sufficient.   Thoughts?

And I'd love to do solid wood, but I can't afford that - not at 50' of 13" wide 5/8"or 3/4" thick solid wood.  The baltic plywood seems like a reasonable compromise.  And if I can put the brackets with a max distance apart of  4' with it I think that would satisfy my wife on avoiding the clutter factor.   Keeping the brackets about a foot off the end of the walls (since they are 11" deep) I think I'd need 4 brackets for a 12.5' wall and 3 brackets for a 10' wall.  I don't think that would add too much visual clutter below the shelf.  She also wants to paint the underside of the shelf the color of the wall, so it would seem a waste to spend the extra $ on solid wood and then paint it rather than stain it.  

If you haven't already done so, you might want to download SCARM and enter your room dimensions and layout plan so you can see how much wood you need for the corners, at what angles, etc. I don't think you mentioned what size curves you plan to use and they affect how you do the corners. Even though you're just doing simple ovals, the larger the curves, the further into the room the pieces across the corners will jut out. In my mind, the corners are probably going to be the part of this that your wife is not going to be too happy with.

I Have Those Signals on Shapeways .com in kit form

Ditto on the Baltic Birch.

You can eliminate the brackets and make good use of the horizontal boards within the walls, although the vertical studs will suffice.

Attach a piece of baseboard to the top rear edge of the shelf board. Screw and glue. Then, screw through the baseboard to attach to the wall.

No brackets at all underneath. The finished edge on the top of the baseboard gives it a sort of crown molding look behind the train. Placing the attaching screws from middle to low on the baseboard visually hides them.

I really liked this method and the finished look.

Photos of such an installation were in a recent post. Very clean. I'll see if I can find it.

See Vadarthdad's post on 7/31/15 in this thread. layout #2

That is nice and clean-looking Carl. I wouldn't have thought to try a ceiling layout without support brackets, but it obviously works. 

I do like the look, although I think it would be too much to cantilever the 13" I'm planning on that way. I could go with the 2 tracks on 2 separate shelves but my vision was to more like a "real" layout than not.  For instance, not having 2 tracks all the way around but more like sidings in various places and in spots with only one "main line" be able to do a passenger station or a water tower or gantry crane.  Doing something like that with some scenery on the wall behind it would "feel" more like the full blown table top layout I'd like but simply don't have room for.

That certainly makes sense then.

A 5" x 6" stamped metal bracket will hold a 100lbs. One every 24" is good.

The baseboard at 11/16" thick at the bottom and 5 1/4" is a typical piece.

Your are only inverting the cantilever. The weight will be were the shelf touches the wall and the pull on the baseboard.

Why do think a couple of screws or a screw and a heavy nail won't hold it? You may put 50lbs on it with 2 BigBoys.

I don't know. Do it whichever way you are comfortable. The bride will love no brackets.

calling all engineers, Mopac01 needs a consultation.

MOPAC1,

I found a Sagulator to calculate shelf loading. A thirteen inch wide piece of 1" longleaf pine with a vertical support of 6" high and 3/4" thick(molding) can easily handle 30lbs/ft with the ends secured every two feet or a two foot span attached at the wall studs.

If you doubt the ability of screws, check it out. A screw can handle a lot of force. (#8 deck screw) Shear, withdrawal, and pull through are the figures that you want.

So, it's not the shelf, but the fasteners that make it all work.

The no bracket L-shape shelf is really dependent upon fastening the vertical piece and getting a good bite in the wall with the screws in the studs. You have additional fastening capability with the internal ledger board that you installed. You could also pocket screw the shelf into the ledger board.

If brackets make you feel secure and you don't mind that look, bracket it up. Just some engineering to show why Vadarthdad's works.