Hi I'm just wondering why there is such a big difference in volume on MTH engines weather it be ps 2 or ps 3!

Which ones louder, ps2 or ps3?

Rick O,

   From what I have seen it has nothing to due with whether the engine is a P2 or P3.

It seems to be the size and quality of the individual speaker that really makes the difference in the sound volume and quality.  My P2 NASA Switcher needs to have the volume turned way up to almost max to hear it decently, my 263E P2 needs to be turned 3/4 of the way up also.  My P2 GG1 PRR one stripers volume is so great it only needs to be turned up less than 1/2 way to hear it all over the house.  The P3 stuff acts very similar from what I can see.

PCRR/Dave

Rick, I have the MTH Hudson from 2008 you posted the video of. It still has the cheap flat 25 cent speaker in it and sounds tinny. I plan to upgrade to another speaker I have used in other MTH engines which should make sound at least as good if not better than a Lionel single speaker RS5 setup. It will take some surgery though as controls in the top of the water deck will have to be relocated.

Hopefully with the smaller PS3 electronics the yet to be released Hudsons will have corrected this. No excuse for these chintzy speakers in todays market.

Pete

actually that's exactly what i thought the issues were that the speaker is either  to small or just a cheap cheap speaker. I'm thinking of covering my speaker wit a cap like off of a paint ,hopping the speaker's back pressure would help the volume be louder. another words its like putting a speaker in a sealed  box.I do believe It would improve the volume and maybe even help it sound more BASSEY like the song goes b"Give me some BASE"

Alan

Mth sound has always been poor compared to lionel legacy.  I been told lionel uses 8 bit sound and mth only 4 bit.

The sounds are there. Its the speakers that are the main problem. Also not all the sound sets are created equal. Sometimes loading a different file can make a big difference.

Pete

Speakers can make a difference, and so can sound files. It could be either one or both. I have some MTH engines that sound pretty darn good, but I think Lionel still has a slight lead in the sound department, to my old ears anyway.

It's been my experience that the 5-Volt PS2 engines are often considerably louder than the 3-Volt PS2 engines.  In some cases, the difference in volume is not due entirely to a difference in electronics or speakers, and is instead partially attributable to the sound files themselves.  I say this because I have sometimes had good luck replacing the original sound files in my 3-Volt engines with compatible 3-Volt versions of 5-Volt files.  (For example, I replaced the original file in my 20-3128 P&LE Berkshire with the 3-Volt "upgrade" version of the sound file for the 20-3065 Erie Berkshire, and have been very happy with the results.)

yes i noticed that to i have switches some five volt boards out to 3 volt boards and on some engine the sound is much louder then others, especially wondered if the sound file is the main issue?what do you think.I wonder how much time mth really takes when creating there sound files!At least the 3 volt boards seem to last longer then the 5 volt overheating boards in which the 330 uf 35 volt capacitor usually bulges out and then the boards develop problems!

alan

I have Southern Crescent, 4-6-2 in PS2 and PS3.  Both of them are Premier engines and look almost identical.  The PS2 is much louder than the PS3.  This is very noticeable when I double head them with PS3 engine as the lead engine.  I have the volume on both engines turned all the way up and it sounds strange that the trailing PS2 engine is louder.  I have always wondered why PS3 has softer volume as Alan is asking above.  Even my PS3 MTH GE Demonstrator seems to have softer volume compared to other PS2 diesels.   However, the overall sound on the PS3 is much clearer.   Ken

The earlier PS3 had a software problem that noticeably lowered the engine volume. MTH techs told me to download a new sound file with a different suffix code which would correct the problem. That didn't work. After going back and forth, the only remedy for some, not all, of my PS3 engines (C408W & 9s) was to install a 4ohm 3watt PS2 Veco speaker. MTH seems to have fixed the problem as the newer PS3 engines have better volume and bass.

Did you get the speakers from MTH? Do you have a part number and place of purchase? I had some speaker info at one time for MTH engines, but I can't find it now.

I will note the enclosed in a cap idea has merit. Speakers need a baffle/enclosed area to work best.

And yes, MTH speaker quality has varied over the years. I'm not sure but I'll bet they get 'taken' occasionally by a good sales rep, just like the rest of us.

Face it, everyone rates the speakers at 8 to 80Khz but many of them are lousy for most of that range. Sure they will make sound at the ends of the range, but what does it sound like? Step on a cat or violin? It makes a big difference in our trains as we have very wide range of sounds.

I have a Premier GP7 with PS3 and a Railking GP9 with PS2 and the PS2 is much louder than the PS3.

@ rtr12    I bought them from MTH. The part number for the speaker is BF0000034, 4ohm 3watts, made by VECO for MTH. I don't remember how much they were apiece. 

 MTH Parts: 410-381-2580 ext. 516 Midge Wilburn.

* You may have to use the older type speaker hold-downs in the fuel tank. The top ring of the one piece PS3 speaker hold-down was to small to fit around the VECO PS2 speaker.

I just received an MTH KCS SD40-2 PS3 and the sounds would blow your socks off! 

I have at least 6 of those lousy sound engines, I will try using some of these speakers that Paul mentioned. 4ohm 3watt PS2 Veco speaker.

I do not understand the speaker problem, MTH make a great engine but why do they use such a cheap speaker? I know MTH can get this issue fixed so lets get'r done.

Thanks Paul!

there 15.00 each for the speaker form mth

alan

My PS2 and PS3 engines have varied across the board.  I've had PS3 engines that were barely audible, and PS2 engines that rattle the walls.  A lot of it comes down to the sound set believe it or not.  On my M1a, the original passenger sound set was soft to the point of utter aggravation.  When I upgraded to the latest and greatest PS3 freight set, it rattled the walls.  I have a PS2 engine (PS2 SD70ACe) that remains my loudest engine - it is uncomfortably loud at full volume, but I have a few PS3's that are right behind it.  

I appreciate, but have no respect for, the "we got scammed on bad speakers from the salesmen" excuse.  In my line of work, if we incorporate substandard components into our solutions, it is incumbent upon us to rectify the situation, which usually involves swapping out components at our expense.  I'm a speaker geek - I've owned speakers that cost as much as a decent car - and yes, the advertised range is usually BS (on the really good stuff its closer to the truth...), but they have to perform reasonably well across the USEFUL range or they don't sell.   Most normal people can't afford a good full range speaker that truly recreates GOOD sound across the entire audible spectrum - that's why things like subwoofers exist - but.... the industry has proven that you can still get great sound out of very small speakers, and you can pack a lot of amplification into a small space as well, so IMO there's no excuse for weak sound.  

Bad recordings?  Well... that's another issue entirely 

Paul, would it possible to post a pic with dimensions of the Veco speaker? I have been using a 4 ohm speaker from XUMP that I have had good results with but its fairly tall, about the size of a Lionel Fatboy, and usually requires some surgery to install even in a lot of tenders.

Pete

Norton, I don't have any loose Veco speakers at present. All my MTH engines are at the NJ Hirailers Club, (locked up). I'll reach out to a member who recently purchased the speaker in question and maybe he can post it if he hasn't already installed it.

I can tell you that it is smaller than the one you have pictured and it fit into the fuel tanks without any problems other than the hold-down clips.

That would be appreciated. That could save me having to do some serious mods on a NYC tender I am trying to upgrade.

Pete

Thanks, I will save the number. I want to order a couple for testing in a couple of older engines.

I have a RailKing Scale BNSF SD45 that also has really good sound. It shipped last fall from the 2014 v1 catalog. Maybe they have the problem resolved in the newer units they are shipping. I have another MTH Premier Dash-8 that I got about a month ago from the 2014 v2 catalog, but haven't gotten it out of the box to try out yet. Hopefully it will sound as good as the SD45 or your SD40.

Paul and Team,

Here is the picture, the part number, the price if you on-line order, if I remember was $8.95 + shipping. Orderinf on - line is cheaper than calling Midge. 

That actually looks like the speaker I am trying to replace. 

Pete

By that I mean shiping an handling are less by using the on-line ordering system. 

Team,

To validate what Paul said, the old speaker hold downs don't work. You need to remove them to install the new speaker. On top of that it is not a nice fit. Holding it in place needs additional screws and the nice little metal clips that hold the old speaker in place are not big enough to re use, therefore, all the parts - become old parts.

I am still trying to figure out the best way to do the exchange - upgrade. Since I see Paul regularly at the NJ HiRailers club - he has done the exchange. If we get time, we will do it and I will take picture and write instructions. 

Paul - lets talk on Wednesday. 

Pete,

It looks very similar but the back side - underside is taller than the one that came from the factory. The difference is that the new new 3W 4 Ohm. Second, the issue is getting it to fit nicely in the tank bay and bolting it down.

Don't forget the electrical tape. I did not re- install it when I replace the speaker and it seemed off. Once I added it, the sound was great - Still trying to figure out how to secure it. 

That is where Paul comes in.

K

Pete, 

I am adding more pictures that will give you a better perspective of the BF0000034 replacement speaker, 3W 4 Ohm.

Kevin 

Th problem is attaching - placing the speaker inside the fuel tank and securing it. As you can see this is a taller speaker and the bracket - or strap that secures the factory installed speaker is not long enough to secure the new speaker because it is taller that the original.  That bracket needs to be remanufactured - modified to work.  - From what I see, the older 20-2201-1 NJ Central Trainmaster from 1999 has little clips that hold that speaker in place.

I am thinking that that might work to secure the new speaker in place because they are clips that go over the outside rim of that speaker.

My next step is to purchase a bunch of them to justify the shipping costs.

If it works, will let you know. 

Kevin 

Kevin, Thanks for the additional photos. I will check mine again and compare.

I might have to contact Midge and see if she would be willing to bring these to York.

I would like to try one before committing to half dozen.

Pete

Go to the MTH site an buy one. Probably faster, you will also need, at least I believe these will work, ordered 20 today and won't know for sure until I try it.

MTH Part number - IH0000204 these are clips to hold the speaker in on the NJ Central Trainmaster I mentioned earlier. Cost $1.00 each plus $9.95 shipping

Without these, I don't think you will be able to have the speaker sit properly. 

I would order the speaker and the clips ASAP. My guess is she won't bring them to York and from what I see these are the closest items you will need.

Kevin 

Some diesels I have found with the flat speakers or the small oval also have an impedance mismatch.  I just recently repaired a relatively new NW-2 with PS-2 3V that had an 8ohm speaker instead of the 4ohm.  Looked factory. 

I still debunk the cheap speaker comments.  I have seen plenty of booming PS-2 5V that use the cheaper .25W speaker.  Sound great.  So much of this is sound file and tender or engine internal specific too.  IMHO G

PS3 units have more cow bell.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ge&v=GCd0OjjCz88

Running on DCS or Conventional?   I have noted the potentiometer is bypassed when running on DCS,  if you are in conventional mode,  the volume setting would have an impact,  kinda basic info but I didn't see it noted here.

As far as speakers,  I have had great success with Google searches and have found exact size matches at far less than direct purchase from any of the manufacturers.  Of note,  a 2 inch Poly (plastic cone) has really improved the high frequency sounds,  in my opinion.  I have had significant paper cone failures here in the Florida humidity and so far my experience going to poly has been a success.

Search Veco-Round-Speaker-0-2W-50CS16G-M75ND/dp/B00IKN98BQ on Amazon for the 2 inch poly

Mark

Paul inserted the MTH 3W 4 Ohm speaker, the BF0000034, into his Southern Pac, replacing the standard factory installed unit. Or layout, the NJ HiRailer layout is approximately 185 feet by 35 Ft - a massive layout that occupies the an entire floor and when he hits the horn or bell you can hear it all over the place. I may have gotten the price from MTH wrong, shipping is $9.95 but appears to work perfectly. I ordered the speaker clips mentioned above - have not gotten them yet but as soon as I do, will conduct the retrofit and advise.

Paul - can you take a picture of the installed speaker and post to the forum?

K

I'm beginning to see the need for that Proto sound port...

I purchased an SD50 PS3 in Rio Grande, which unfortunately I had to return due to various issues.  Needless to say it was the best sound I have ever heard from an MTH model...EVER!  Even rivals the sound of Lionel Legacy engines.  Anxiously awaiting my Cotton Belt SD45T...hoping the sound will be improved as well.