Hidden Layout Expansion

Dave,

This thread may be of interest:

https://ogrforum.com/t...83#16212591153676483

If you could squeak 4' this would provide an easy way to turn around. With anti derailing switches, you only need to remote control some of the switches

Designed with the help of forum members a while back... haven't built it (yet)

Ed

The pitfalls are knowing what is going on in places you cannot see. For that I built a display panel showing me what is going on in the hidden areas of my layout.

Here is a site that talks to the whole construction. If you breeze through it , it eventually talks to the 'hidden area' issues and the building of a wall hung display panel.

http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=958

I would say there are two pitfalls:

1. As Hugh noted, knowing what's going on in the hidden yard. 
2. Making sure DCS will work on the yard before permanently installing it or relying on it.  Eddiem provided a pretty complicated track plan.

George

Originally Posted by Hugh Laubis:

Originally Posted by G3750:

2. Making sure DCS will work on the yard before permanently installing it or relying on it.  Eddiem provided a pretty complicated track plan.

Ed. Thanks for posting that link, those designs are very close to what I'm thinking of, though mine might be strictly for storage and not need all the turnouts. The reversing loop would be used to simulate taking a consist in and coming out with a different one, depending on final size of the space I can use. It's something I'd design in for future expansion, I'm trying to think ahead in case I get the bug to buy more rolling stock than I'm currently planning. If that is an RR-Track design, might I get the rrt file, either by posting here or through email (ddetert --at-- cox.net)?

Hugh. Yeah, I knew that would be a problem, but like I said, making consists would probably be done manually, at least initially. I'm not into things like switching cars around, but never know where future interests will take me. Since I have some spare 10" tablets, a video cam setup is not out of the question too.

George. That's a good point, but why wouldn't DCS work in a hidden layout right next door? I can operate my garage Christmas layout from the family room through 2 walls and a fire door. Admittedly, I'm a novice at DCS wiring and only have a 6x8 oval at the moment running off a TIU powered by the Z500. I could possibly even use the Z500 with the R-T-R set's original limited remote after I replace it with the Z4000. After all, all I need for the yard is engine sounds and forward/reverse.

When you build the layout and the extension, you just need to make sure you wire with DCS in mind.  If you follow the wiring conventions properly, there should be no issue in getting a yard to work with DCS.

Thanks, John. I have "The Book" and will follow it when I get to that point.

Dave,

Here's a look at my underlayout hidden storage yard just prior to installation. 

This photo shows where it will go (look in the center against the back wall and you'll see some track sticking out to the left from the benchwork.

This photo shows the yard itself just prior to installation.

The yard is roughly 8.5' in length and holds 40-50 cars.  It allows me to reverse the direction of the train as well.

George

How is the track configured to get down to the yard?

If you do not plan an LED display in advance of laying the track, you may have a problem. Providing the proper 'line drops' to feed the display is a requirement. I used line drops off insulated side rail sections to  tell me where the trains were on the main lines (amber) and I used the switch machine drops to tell me how the switches were set. (red & Green) The sidings were displayed as ( blue) if the track was powered and additional red if the siding was occupied. The blue was done with a center rail drop and the (red) was done with a side rail drop on the last section of track before the bumpers. A hokie rigged up setup was made on the hidden bumpers so a push button switch would ring a bell when the train was hitting the bumper. DCS train control made all this operate slowly and to perfection. I think all is shown or explained in the blog link provided above.

John makes an excellent point. Plan this out on paper first, totally DCS in mind and with any drops for a panel before you execute or else you will wish you had.

Thanks for the photos, George. That gives me an even better idea. I was going to go straight through the wall into the yard, but I can see that if I enter the other room at an angle and run along the wall into a yard like yours, I think I'd get more useable track for storage. I could even add a spur to that right side curve to go straight out through another hole.

Since that is also going to be a craft room, I'm thinking I might even be able to cover the yard with a clear or windowed top of some sort. When I need access to manually move cars around, I'd simply lift up the top. It would do double duty as a table for spreading out crafts, etc., and keep the rolling stock cleaner.

Sure gives me a few ideas to play with and RR-Track will make it easy.

I will take all that to heart. I'm already wondering if I really want to have to go into the yard room and either leave the main layout unattended or stop any running trains. I still think a camera/tablet combo might be the way to go, but we'll see, sure would be easier to setup and maintain. I can even see a 32" TV on the wall with cameras around the layout, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

Dave,

I think a camera or two would make the situation easy to manage.  Cameras that can feed to a TV input are about $35 each, and would help with the big picture as well as when to stop a train, which one is moving, on what track, etc.

I have a few cameras on my layout with a TV on the wall.  Mine are placed in tunnels or at the end of straightaways so visitors can see a track level view of trains headed right toward them!

Most of these cameras come with 50 or 60' of telephone wire to connect the camera to a power supply (wall wart) and TV feed. 

Harbor freight has one like this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/w...ht-vision-95914.html

As far as the diagram I sent, I did it in XtraCad, so no rrt file,

Ed

ps. I would put a power off panic button in both rooms to allow for an immediate power-down of the whole layout from either location.

another ps.  George - I like that design a lot!

Thanks, Eddie, Harbor Freight is not too far from us and I'll check cameras out the next time we stop in.

No problem on the file. I've used XTrackCad in the past, but I'll be playing with different configurations anyway, so I'll just start from scratch using the photo as a guide.

Funny you should ask that question, John.

I have a long yard lead that is hidden by the entrance to a steel mill.  Here are a few photos.

This shot clearly shows the yard lead descending and curving off to the left to run against the wall.  Ironically, that curve is the biggest (and the only O72) one on the layout.  Still, the Alco S-2 can take about 9 cars down, but only bring 4 up at a time.

This is a close-up of the platform that will reside inside my Open Hearth Mill.  Beyond the mill, the track descends rather steeply.

And finally, here's the finished building sitting on top of the track.  To the right of the building, a rack of oxygen tanks will hide the side entry.  To the left, a highway overpass will occupy some space.  Further left the Blooming Mill will hide more of the track.  Finally, the corner will be occupied by the very large Strip Steel Building.

The buildings are at a 30 degree angle into the wall because of my space limitations.  This makes them look larger and gives me room to build several different structures.

George

That's cool, and exactly what I'd like to do for a hidden yard, so I was interested to see how you accessed it.   Nice job.

Thank you!  It even works!

George

Thought some might like to see what I came up with last night while watching TV. Obviously this is just to show what's possible and needs a lot of work. I'll need to figure out where any obstructions are in the wall and adjust the yard height accordingly. I also want to add at least 2 more levels to the main layout, one that will cross over the main at some point and another about mid-point between the other 2. The design uses Atlas O-36 and I want to try other track/sizes and benchwork configurations. I'm not opposed to O-31 for the type of operation I want. I left a 1' walkway along the closet off to the left of the bottom room and I'll play with using that space too. Still, this initial shot turned out a lot better than I expected.

Dave,

That's looking pretty good.  You can even reverse trains - one direction via loop, the other via reversing on the main line.

George

I wouldn't want to be sleeping in that BR while the trains are running!

George, I though I was the only one who wanted to hide things inside buildings. I mentioned doing that once about a year ago and when no one commented, I figured I must be nuts. Now that I see it in action, I'm going ahead with my plans to do the same.

Me neither, but it sure might be some fun when my brother or sister visit. I wonder if they'd like a cup of coffee on a flatbed car about 5:00 am?

Great idea Dave!

The 7:00am run might make a great alarm clock.

Dave,

I'm not qualified to comment on your mental state.   H***, I may not even be qualified to comment on my own. 

If you want to read about the entire run of madness, it's all chronicled in my Photo Forum thread:  https://ogrforum.com/t...r-panhandle-division

George

What is the grade of your yard lead?

And I had to think about how odd it's be to see certain kinds of cars come out of that Mill, like cattle cars or auto racks.  You must not run a very varied consist?  But overall I like this drop down (Or even going up.) yard idea.  Good thing my layout is still in the very early planning stages, it still isn't going to cost me anything to change it.

Tom,

I have not considered a long horizontal opening, but I certainly will if I decide to go this route. This whole idea just popped into my head when I saw Mike's post, then Eddie's design and George's yard, so I haven't had time to consider various possibilities. I can say I doubt the wall will come down, though I can see how that would make some sense.

My plan for the bed is a Murphy bed centered between 2 windows in that bedroom. However, it needs to be queen-size for visitor/spouse comfort.

While dividing the room might look good on paper, the room is much more than a mere sewing room. It needs to have a craft area too for activities like assembling picture frames, quilting, building layout structures and whatever else we get into. My idea for the yard is to have it at standing-work height when the cover is down. We'd either stand at it or use high chairs, mostly to measure and cut fabric, etc.

Dang, now I want one in our bedroom.

One of my thoughts is/was to just cut a square flap into a section of a cloth or plastic backdrop of scenery and have trains simply appear/disappear through them. I haven't gotten that far into my designs yet to see how that might work.

I am inspired by your project and would like to share one idea I had for future expansion on my layout.  You stated you would have a murphy bed.  What if you applied the same "fold up" principle to add an additional section of layout?  When the murphy bed is up, you could lower this section to expand your layout in the second room.  I was looking at your plan and thought of a section opposite the bed, more horizontal than vertical.  When folded up, you could actually have a flat panel TV on the "wall" or underside.

I thought so too George, but when I played with the simulation I found the main crossover needed to be turned in the opposite direction. I added another crossover in the main room so I'd have a loop-2-loop without having to go through the yard room. I'm playing with the position of both crossovers so I can add another level, possibly making both levels over and under on opposite crossing in the middle.

I'll certainly look into that, but I'm just thinking about the bed and don't forget that I want a see-through foldup cover over the top of the yard to act as a craft table, etc., when in the down position.

FWIW, I just got the OKAY from my wife for the idea and the initial plan, so I'm abandoning my garage design for now and will concentrate on this one. I'm also looking at a lift-out bridge at the entrance to give me the around-the-room option.

I am not really sure of the grade for the yard lead.  All I know (by trial and error) is that the Lionel Alco S-2 switcher will take 4 cars up the slope at a crawl.

As to trains moving in / out of the mill, here's what we have:

IN:

• Loaded ore jennies (for the "pretend" blast furnaces)
• Loaded coal hoppers
• Empty slag cars (for the "pretend" blast furnaces)
• Empty box cars for the Strip Steel (going to get tin plate sheets)
• Empty coil gondolas for the Strip Steel
• Empty special slab flat cars (going to get slabs)

OUT:

• Empty ore jennies departing the mill
• Empty coal hoppers departing the mill
• Loaded box cars departing the Strip Steel for markets
• Loaded coil gondolas departing the Strip Steel for markets
• Loaded slag cars headed to Standard Slag for dumping

Intra-mill moves:

• Hot metal (torpedo) cars transferring hot iron from the blast furnaces to Open Hearth.
• Ingot flat cars transferring loads from the Open Hearth to the Blooming Mill.

There are enough moves listed above to keep the mill switcher busy.

You are correct, there won't be mixed consists or "peddler" freights coming in or out of the hidden yard.  It's strictly there to serve the Weirton Steel Company.

I do have a hidden passing siding (will sit behind a backdrop) that will allow me to stage 1 train and have it appear, make a circuit or two, and then disappear.  That will probably be my mixed freight.

George