Homasote or 2" Insulation Board?

https://ogrforum.com/...e-or-not-to-homasote

The 2" foam won't have any sound deadening properties, which is why I used the Homasote.  There are other reasons to use the 2" foam, but sound suppression ain't one of them.

My experience, FWIW. For this little Xmas layout, I used 2" foam board on a grid of 1"x8" boards placed on a rug, on hard wood floor.  Seemed pretty loud to me.  YMMV.

This should be a running joke:  A hobbyist asks Plywood, vs Homasote, vs 2" Foam Board?  And that's when the fight started!  lol  Note, I didn't state it was a good joke.

My layout is an around the wall layout in my crappy basement and is still under construction.  Essentially each side is 20' long with the width varying from 1' to 4' as my basement is not a true rectangle. I also used cork roadbed.  Here is an early construction pic to give a visual:

I can only think of 2 Cons to using Foam Insulation:

- if you need your layout to support the weight of a human on top of it

- noise.  It is louder than plywood with homasote on top however, having used that method I'm of the opinion it's not that much louder.  Now if you are using Fastrack or traditional styled tubular track be warned it will be significantly louder than using Atlas, Gargraves or Ross.   I definitely would not use 2" foam if I were using Fastrack or tubular track.

Pros:

- Cost

- it's lightweight

- it's much easier to create scenery with foam vs plywood and I'm not necessarily talking about carving mountains as you can easily sink accessory bases into foam, create cutouts, drainage ditches, etc.  All are a pain if you have to cut through plywood.  Want to "plant" trees or telephone poles on your layout? Much easier to poke a hole in foam to mount.

One suggestion - go and purchase a sheet of 2" foam and setup a loop to see for yourself.  If you decide not to use it you'll most likely be able to use the foam for scenery.

Bottom line - it comes down to what matters to you.

-Greg

@Greg Houser posted:

This should be a running joke:  A hobbyist asks Plywood, vs Homasote, vs 2" Foam Board?  And that's when the fight started!  lol  Note, I didn't state it was a good joke.

I'll take the FOAM corner. Pros: It's very easy to work with and very light weight. For making elevations, rivers etc it's very easy. Natural rock wall, brick walls etc very easy to work with. Paints well and you can glue anything to it. Just be careful with a heat gun. As to strength, I am not so sure that it gets a good rap... it depends on the bench work under it. Some pics show every twelve inches, some 18-24..... at those higher dimensions I would be hesitant to try to walk on, even at 2 inch thick foam. I have tried walking on 2" foam on 12 inch centers on the floor and it is fine; but I have do reason ever to walk on my layout. I am a bigger guy, and I have no problem "laying" across the layout or leaning heavily on one hand while reaching out. I have a 12x12 piece I use for a kneeling board and my knee doesn't leave a dent. As to the noise, cork roadbed reduces it well on both tubular and Atlas tracks. I like it.

Please pass the popcorn....

This has been very helpful. The layout will be around the walls so no need for me to climb on it but I will be doing Fastrack so that seems like its going to be an issue with sound. The layout is in a room on the 2nd floor of our house so noise is a definite consideration. It seems like I will be sticking with homasote. I will try to score it for the first time and snap it off that way I can cut it in the train room and not have to worry about the dust even though that knife blade looks awesome.

FWIW, even with the Homasote, Fastrack ain't gonna' be very quiet!  I had dropped a couple loops and sidings of Fastrack on top of the new layout bench while waiting for my Ross/Gargraves track and switches.  It was pretty loud!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

FWIW, even with the Homasote, Fastrack ain't gonna' be very quiet!  I had dropped a couple loops and sidings of Fastrack on top of the new layout bench while waiting for my Ross/Gargraves track and switches.  It was pretty loud!

Agreed... I did exactly the same... while waiting for my Atlas track and turnouts.

With layout construction, there are up to (3) layers under the track.

1) Base Structure, which can be Plywood, OSB or 2" Rigid Extruded Foam (Blue or Pink).

2) Optional Sound Attenuator (Deadener) Layer.  Homasote, or Felt (Carpet Padding).

3) Roadbed.  Cork, Soft Rubberized Foam or Homabed (which deaden sound to some degree).  Or Molded Plastic (Fastrack, etc.)

Lastly Solid rail is going to be quieter than Hollow.

So if we are looking for quiet, would use the (3) which would be the best for cutting noise.  2" Foam, topped by Homasote, with Cork or Rubber Foam (I believe these are about the same).  With Solid Rail.

So has anyone taken the three layer approach I just mentioned, and how has it worked?  Or is doing all 3 overkill?

Thanks.

I have 16” centers, 3/4 osb (because I couldn’t beat the price), 3/4” foam board (for scenery purposes), and carpet padding underneath tubular track. I’m happy with the preliminary results.

Well, if I was starting out, choosing new track, I would choose Atlas O track, (solid rail) 1/2 inch plywood, homasote, 1/4 cork road bed, using Atlas O -3/4- screws thru the track, cork and into the homasote only, then, I would have a quiet train layout.  That’s how I built my layout. You can run 4 trains, (passenger and freight) turn off all of the sounds, sound cars, and it’s very very quiet.
yes, homasote is dusty, cut it outside. cork is pricy but very effective in sound reduction. Sell the fastrack, it’s difficult to really make it quiet. metal, plastic, is loud.
2 in foam is probably ok for scenery but it’s not good for holding screws or reducing sound vibration from fastrack.
Remember, you asked the Question….. Happy Railroading Everyone

Here’s another approach: I glue 1” foam board to a very thin layer of plywood (typically used for underlayment).  I am making a composite beam and it is amazingly strong.  I use tubular track.  Don’t get me started about Fastrack!.  I attach a piece of weatherstripping underneath the ties.  The weatherstripping is from a big box store and fits perfectly.  It is self sticking so does not have to be glued.  The weatherstripping is just thick enough that the bottom of the ties does not quite rest on the top of the foam.  I then attach the track to the foam by using two cable zip ties.  I drill a hole through the foam and attach the second zip tie from underneath,  I use black zip ties so the top of the zip tie that is on the top of the tie is not noticeable.  I tighten the zip tie enough to hold everything in place but not enough to pull the track firmly to the top of the foam.  All of the track then is essentially floating on the top of the foam but is well restrained by the zip ties.  Since the zip ties are flexible there is no hard connection between the track and the foam/plywood to transmit sound.  The trains are virtually silent.  I highly recommend it.

I have found that background noise makes fast track seem quieter. My layout used to be in the nice air conditioned room in the house and fast track was loud. Now I am constructing a loop in the noise laden garage, fast track noise seems quieter.

Some observations from building modules and insulating a camper van over the years ...

Layers with differing sound attenuation characteristics are effective.

The sounding "board" (ply, particle, foam) should be covered on both the top and bottom (thanks to the San Diego O gauge guys for recommending a subfloor sound layer glued to the underside of the ply).  Sound radiates from both the top and bottom of the layout surface. The big box building stores have several types of underlayments - I prefer the rubber-like type but the foam cell type is less costly.  Carpet glue is good for application.

Carpet is effective.  My modules built with 1/2" pile grey carpet 'ballast' under tubular track are the quietest.  Better than cork roadbed.  Track on top of thin indoor/outdoor carpet is not as quiet.

Foam modules built from 1.5" foam with 1x2s frames glued to the sides, then covered with carpet (top only) stapled in place, seems quiet enough.  I just built a 2x12 ft "carpet central" switching layout using Fastrack Command switches.  The engine sounds overwhelm the track noise.  This is at slow speed operation.

Improvements to deadening track noise on my foam board switching layout may be: a) gluing underlayment to the foam board, then gluing the carpet to the underlayment.  Applying Kilmat (left over from the van insulation effort) to the underside of the Fastrack.

I have a supply of Homasote pre-cut for future module building but the weight penalty of adding a Homasote layer has kept me from using it.  Lugging and setting up heavy modules is not fun.  For a permanent layout, the Homasote is probably the best base layer to use for deadening track sound.   But, if you want a modular layout, or a sectional layout anticipating future moves, keeping the modules light is good.   Foam with deadening layers bonded to it may be a good solution.

Just have to add this dose of reality.  For someone just entering the hobby, give 2 rail 0 scale a good look-see.  This form of 1/4" modeling is very quiet.  Even with out sound equipment there is hardly any discernible noise.

Long time ago we built a large three rail layout for a brand new o gauger who only ever had trains on display.  When the first mainline was installed he ran a train for the very first time.

Turns out he was rather sound sensitive.  He had us rip out all the track, he sold all his trains.  We then installed all new 2 rail track and replaced his locos and cars with 2 rail stock.

I run both two and three rail 0 scale, love them both or different reasons.

Thanks guys, lots of Great Suggestions here that balance cost, weight and noise!

This topic, although NOT started by me, I find VERY interesting.  I came from HO and usually was down in the basement with the trains running (conventional, no sound)  so I found the noise "soothing" (white noise).  Once while "breaking in" a couple of Locos, I got hungry and went up to the kitchen to get some thing to eat.  I was surprised how loud it was.  Sound being carried up through the ductwork.

I currently live in an apartment, moved, so sold the house.  I have been buying 3R equipment for the last year it looks great but.... I am getting antsy to run it.  I know O is going to be louder than HO.  (HO was louder than N which I messed with for a while in the 1990's.)  So that I don't get shot by the other tenants, sound is a priority when I set something up. 

Tom -  You "struck a chord", (pun intended), thank you for the information!   Do you know why 2R is substantially quieter than 3R?  There is the center pick-up, but thought traction tires might offset steel Drivers. 

TJ - Covering both sides to reduce noise makes complete sense thanks for the input!  I love the grey carpet ballast idea, could you post a picture?

Edward - I will tell the neighbors to turn-up their "stereo" or whatever it's called now a days (my age is showing) to drown out the noise when I run my trains. .

CA Shagger - the composite approach for the structure is Great (lightweight and rigid)!  Also I like the weather stripping sound isolator approach you took.

Larry - Your comments are helpful!

Tranquil - Your experience is helpful!

Thanks also to all previous posters!

Bottom line: LOTS of ways to accomplish a quiet layout!  Now got to "weigh" my options, lightness may factor in, (pun intended), because if I move from the apartment, would want to take the layout with me.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Tom -  You "struck a chord", (pun intended), thank you for the information!   Do you know why 2R is substantially quieter than 3R?  There is the center pick-up, but thought traction tires might offset steel Drivers.

Although I have no absolute "proof", I'm pretty sure a significant part of the greater sound level of 3R over 2R is indeed the roller.  Remember, it spins much faster than the wheels, and it also spring loaded.

In support of my opinion, I did a modification of a set of passenger cars for a customer some time back.  When converting them to LED lighting, I also removed the pickups from all but one car and used a single wire tether between all the cars to support the lights.  The object was to decrease the rolling resistance, but as it turns out, it also reduced the rolling sounds.

I doubt the traction tires offer much improvement, there's still plenty of steel-on-steel happening with all the other wheels.

Several aspects affect the sound.  A big one is the turnouts or rather any 3 rail frogs.  They are by design sloppy wide accommodating anything vaguely resembling three rail wheel treads and flanges.

Two rail frogs are designed according to NMRA standards to be so constructed so as to have the wheel's tread on a portion of a rail head  at all time as it rolls over the frog.  No dropping or clicking.

One of the best 2 rail turnouts is the Signature Switch turnouts for NMRA precision frogs.

Show is an example of scale rail & frogs:

Below are a few Signature frogs:

All of my Signature Switches are dead quiet.

GRJs layout is one of the quietest 3 rail layouts around.  Refreshingly so!

No matter whether you use screws, glue, foam, Homasote or plywood, be prepared for your relative noise level to increase significantly after ballasting. The rock-solid nature of a ballasted track ensures excellent audio transmission from the track ties to the plywood/foam/cork base. (I once tested rubber ballast but I found it too difficult to lay down properly.)  I stopped ballasting the track in more hidden or remote areas. For those who are very concerned about noise, I don't recommend ballasting at all.

Bruce is absolutely correct.  I have a very short section with glued ballast on my RR.  It is the only place where I experience objectionable running noise.   And that is with Atlas flex over 1/2" Homasote only glued down over  stiff 3/4" A/B grade Birch plywood.  The plywood is glued down, sitting on a bed of silicone over 3/4" X 3  1/2" same birch support members on 16" or less spacing.

I may loose ballast some yards but absolutely no glue down ballast on any main lines or run through tracks.  The noise is silly distinctive.   I have a low tolerance for unwarranted sounds. 

That's what has be thinking how to deal with the ballast on my pike.  I sure don't want to increase the noise level, I spend a lot of money on sounds, I want to hear them.

Years ago 2 rail scale builders used what are called half ties and installed them over graveled roofing paper cut out for the right a way.  Very convincing yet quiet.

I'll look for photos.