How About Replacing Overhead Fluorescent Tubes with LED tubes?

Well, this thread finally got me to jump in and change out my hodgepodge of fluorescent fixtures in the train room with LEDs.

A few facts about my decision and about the bulbs themselves.

-  I decided to scrap the old, mostly shop light quality fixtures entirely and go with banks of LED floodlights.

- I was not going for energy savings as much as the lower wattage which allowed more bulbs on each circuit.

- I chose bulbs with a 3000K rating. 2700K is too warm and 5000K too blue for my tastes, and for the photography I do.

- About the floodlights I used. I chose BR rated bulbs which give a wide coverage. The PAR series are spotlights with more intense light over a smaller area. The PARs are good for highlighting certain areas, but, for my photography, I prefer the even illumination of BRs.

- I ended up using BR40 17 W (100W equivalent) bulbs spaced about 32" apart (every other joist) for my 30" wide around the walls layout.

- To cut costs I used inexpensive outdoor style floodlight fixtures. My basement is unfinished and everything will be hidden behind a valance so appearance was not a factor.

- Best money I've spent on the train room!  Now I flip a switch and instant light - no more flickering to life and no more buzzes or hums. I didn't realize how noisy all those fluorescent fixtures had been!

Thanks to all who posted here for giving me the push to finally do this.

A couple of quick photos of one side of the layout before the valances were re-installed and before general room lighting was added. Many more photos to come!

Jim

Am I the only person out there who uses incandescent spotlights in my train room?  In my 12' x 12' room, I have 12 track light fixtures with 40W halogen lights in them.  I wouldn't enjoy my layout as much if I couldn't slowly dim all the lights and see the building and street lights stand out in and almost-nighttime scene.

I am hooked on the warm glow of an incandescent, and I haven't seen an LED bulb that dims as well as a good 'ol fashioned light bulb! Yes, I mean real, 100% down to 0% dimming, with all the levels in between!  On full bright, there is plenty of light to see what I'm working on, but at 10%-20%, the layout takes on a completely different look!

ed

ps. I use flourescent in my garage and have started the switch to LED.

pps.  I run all modern trains, but feel like I'm a "postwar lighting guy"

Big Jim posted:

Rod Stewart posted:

UPDATE: I went to Costco today and picked up some more of the direct replacement (no re-wiring) LED tubes. Tried them in my 2 tube and 4 tube train room fixtures and they all work just fine. They are truly plug 'n play. I attach a scan of the important stuff on the box, just for reference. I am corrected on a couple of earlier points. They are made by Luminus and are rated at 19 watts and 2200 lumens per tube. The color temp is 4000K, which they call cool white. They seem quite bright to me. They are rated at 50,000 hrs, and they are instant on, non-flickering. The rated temp range is -20 to +40 C; so they should work in most garage applications as well. They have a five year warranty against failure. Their expected life is 45 years based on 3 hours average per day. Tomorrow I will head back over to Costco and pick up the balance needed to finish the job.

Rod

I tried a couple of these for my bedroom closet and they were about a third of the brightness of the fluorescent  bulbs. I returned them right away. After all I have read here, to say that I was disappointed is an understatement! As Rich says, it must be my computer.

Yep, it's your computer!

I just installed some of these in a couple of garage fixtures that had failing bulbs, seemed like a good time to update them.  They're every bit as bright as the 32W tubes I'm replacing, they actually seem a lot brighter than the remaining fluorescent bulbs.  I just got them at Costco as well.

I normally have been using the ones that you need to remove the ballast as some of my 27 year old ballasts had died, and I didn't know if the direct replacement tubes would work in those fixtures.

EddieM, Mrs. RJR agrees with you.  I also like the look of clear incandescents on a dimmer for my front outside lights.  It's a soft light.

I notice many of the comments above regarding switching from tubes speak of 32-watt tubes.  If I recall, these were being pushed as power-saving substitutes for 40-watters (along with 80-watt incandescents being pushed to replace 100-watters).  I never did switch but bought a case of 40-watt tubes in case they were banned.

I note that the k number isn't just a measure of brightness, but rather a measure of color. See:

http://blog.batteriesplus.com/...in-a-different-light

Well, truthfully, I can't say if they're 32W or 40W, they're 27 years old!

Probably 40's if they're that old.  We'll see if the LEDs last that long.

I'm fairly sure the LED's will outlast me.

I don't know what electronics are in the base of an LED bulb.  I've had internal electronics fail in CFL bulbs, and I don't know if LED insides are any better.

A little fluorescent information:

T-8 and T-12 number relate to the bulb shape (T for tube) and the diameter of the lamp in 1/8" increments.

A T-12 lamp is 1 1/2" in diameter, a T-8 lamp is 1" in diameter.

The 'K' value is the temperature that a piece of iron glows at when heated to the temperature listed.  The lower the number, the more flame like or warmer it looks.  The higher the temperature the more whitish it looks and closer to daylight.  2700K is warm incandescent and 5000K is approaching daylight.

Lumens is the measure of light output.  This is the most deceptive number. You will find spot lights with a 100w equivalent, but it only looks like a 100w lamp under the spot light.  Everywhere else it could be dark.  The same is with LED, fluorescent replacement, tubes.  Some manufactures make the LEDs point straight down and you get no spill lighting like you do with fluorescent.  It may be OK for your layout, but your ceiling could go dark and make it look like a cave.  A bargain lamp may not be a bargain.

Finally, be sure to check the operating temperature of the lamp your buying and the space you are putting it in.  LEDs hate the heat and will die early and not put out their full light output when hot.

I hope this helps.

I added a couple of these 4 ft. shop LED lights from BJ's.  They are $36.00 each but were on sale in June for $33.00.  They are very very bright. Great in the garage. I put a couple over my layout and they have a pull chain if you need to turn them off.  great way to get the light that you need.

eddiem posted:

Am I the only person out there who uses incandescent spotlights in my train room?  .......

Ed,

I agree with you on all counts. Unfortunately, using incandescents over my entire layout would run the wattage up well over the capacity of the circuits in my basement. With this limitation, at the time I first built the layout, my only option was fluorescents or else rewire the whole basement which was not really an option due to cost.

Eventually, I may experiment with adding a few warmer, more incandescent-like 2700K LED bulbs in places for the effect you describe. Going with all warmer 2700K LED bulbs would make the photography I do for OGR magazine more difficult, so I went with the whiter 3000Ks.

Right now, I'm just glad to see the same or more light for less than half the wattage and none of the annoyances of the fluorescents. I still have to install dimmers to see how well they work with these bulbs. After doing a little experimenting, I have found that I might get some of that warmth when these particular bulbs are dimmed.

Jim

Looks a little more expensive to me!

A determining factor in whether to replace inefficient lighting with LED or similar is the "hours of use".  Hours of use is often more important than the watts per hour a light uses.

Many of my  incandescent bulbs are in attics, closets, outside motion detector security, mostly unused bedrooms, bathroom, living and dining rooms and even my train/media/audio room.  It makes no sense to replace little used lights.

We have lots of windows so using lights inside in daytime is reduced.

I have other efficient lights in the TR when not operating and like the dimming function of and color of incandescent bulbs for trains.

I wish they would get central air conditioning to run on LEDs and be that efficient!  My power bills are more than triple in June to September due to AC, a necessity of life in south Louisiana.

Charlie

Mmm, incandescents are being phased out. Eventually, none will be available, so it's just a matter of time when all bulbs will be CFL or LED.

I've been following this thread since it started. When incandescence light bulbs were to be phased out I started replacing them with CFD's. Today while on the computer the light behind me started to flicker. It was a CFD. I got up to shut it off and there was a bit of smoke coming from where the spiral tube goes into the base. I have to wonder if I was not there when that happened would it of caught fire. This was the second time this has happened but I was there when it happened the first time. So as for myself rather then let them burn out I'll finish replacing all of them left with LED's...............Paul 

I've had that happen also, plus a hole appearing in a tube.  The question is through, what electronics are there in an LED bulb?  Anyone out there in forumland ever taken one apart or seen the plans.

I use to have those GE neodymium bulbs. They were called ''full spectrum'' and were supposedly used by museums and jewelry stores. But they were 75 watters and and 15 of them when on would actually heat my train room. Last year 60 watt 800 lumen LED bulbs were on sale for $1.99 (plus 10% off veterans discount). I started with a few to see how they were and eventually replaced all and also every incandescent in the house. I dropped over a kilowatt just in the train room and now have the lowest electric bill in 20 years.  

While LED lamps have a lot of benefits, they do have a drawback that you don't hear much about. Yes, they last for up to 50,000 hours because they typically never burn out, but they do lose brightness with age - losing 30% or more of their brightness as they age.  Chances are that most LEDs lamps will last much longer than 50,000 hours, but with greatly reduced brightness that would be unacceptable - again, they don't burn out, but they do get dim with age.  People who are adopting LED bulbs may find they are replacing them sooner then expected in some situations because they just are not as as bright as they were when they were first installed. 

I have LED bulbs in my house and I think they are great-- I'm converting to LED bulbs throughout the house. But I'll end up replacing them well before 50,000 hours because I'll notice at some point that they just are not as bright as they used to be and I'll want to fix that.

Dale

I just got back from Home Depot and I found several led models to choose from. The 4ft shop light style I bought were around 40 dollars each. I want to switch out the fluorescent fixtures in my garage. I am excited to see how bright they will be.

Phased out, maybe.  Forgot to say there are spare bulbs in the attic purchased cheap when Walmart was phasing them out.  Also have a supply of mini Christmas tree lights, 12v and 7v for the my train buildings, bought after Christmas at half price or better.

With the internet one will be able to get incandescent bulbs from the third world somewhere for along time, probably free shipping too.  All those electrical parts I used to get at Radio Shack are available at Ebay from China, cheaper with free shipping.

Old saying about latest technology:  The second mouse gets the cheese.

Charlie

I notice many of the comments above regarding switching from tubes speak of 32-watt tubes.  If I recall, these were being pushed as power-saving substitutes for 40-watters (along with 80-watt incandescents being pushed to replace 100-watters).  I never did switch but bought a case of 40-watt tubes in case they were banned.

40 watt tubes are still available locally around here. But the selection of light temperatures has been reduced, and the price on them seems to have gone up significantly. We are replacing the fluorescent work lights (2 40 watt tubes per fixture) in our garage with LED fixtures.

We'll see how well they provide general lighting.

I got this LED light yesterday at Aldi Foods for just under $20. It has three types of light temperature. Daylight, soft white, and cool white. Each of those is dimmable. It also has a built in clock, calendar, thermometer, and USB port. I plan to add it to my other one on the workbench. I can't get enough light to work on things. I may go back and see if I can get another one.

Here's the lights I choose to try in my garage. It's pretty bright and the camera struggles to show this. I think it blinded the camera too?

There were many to choose from. There was a double tube model with black ends that I almost went with. That one was not turned on in the display. So, It's hard to make a good decision in the store.

Engineer-Joe posted:

Here's the lights I choose to try in my garage. It's pretty bright and the camera struggles to show this. I think it blinded the camera too?

There were many to choose from. There was a double tube model with black ends that I almost went with. That one was not turned on in the display. So, It's hard to make a good decision in the store.

Can I ask where you got these?? I bought a few from a retailer and when I went back for more they no longer carried them. thx

Sorry Dave, I just saw your question! Home Depot!

I should also post about how good they look. They're easy to install for DIY as they just need to plug in and hang from included chains if desired. They also come with several methods for powering others including jumper plugs and short jumper cords to daisy chain the lights.

The new lights are on the right and the older fluorescent are on the left. The old have all chrome insides and high output thin (T8) bulbs too.

I chose to space the new ones to spread the light more. Sorry for the mess.

There are a lot of these posts if you do a search. I saw at least half a dozen threads on this subject.

I have to get some new lights one day when ebay closes down so I can save some money.

These Fluro lights have been going on and off for 35 years a couple don't even work, I'm slack, I try not to look at the ceiling.

Roo.

Dale,  from what information I have read about LED bulbs is that they will dim near the end of their lifetime and that will be a very, very, very long time.  I have a Heathkit audio control center that I built some 39 years ago that has an LED pilot lamp which is still lights just as bright as it did when it was new.  Granted it hasn't been on constantly since then but it has seen a lot of use. 

Incandescent bulbs will also dim as they get older but much sooner than LEDs.  

Larry

murphys law,,,i have never had a ballast go bad,,gunnerjohn said he did,,,,dang,,,,two blew,,,must be at least 17 years old,,,,so I bit the bullet,,,got the hyperikon bulbs from amazon,5000 ,,I did 4, 2 unit florescent fixtures,,,,,wow,,,,need sun glassed,,,,,plan to convert the last 4 later in the month,,,,,,easy rewire job,i watched the hyperikon video,,,,hardest was getting them down,,,, 

My fixtures are 27 years old now, and I've lost about 6-7 ballasts in probably 30 fixtures.  I'm sure more are on their way.  Forget about the crappy electronic ballasts, I bought six of them from three different makers, none of them are still working after less than three years!

Was at Costco today (VA sales tax holiday).  All the LEDs they have are by Feit Electric.  The Feit LED replacement tubes for fluorescent fixtures clearly say on the box "for any fixture" and make no mention on the box of having to rewire fixtures.

Did all my basement lights last year,eliminated all the ballast ,why anyone would want to have a ballast at all is beyond me , i am very happy with my  Hyperikon lights ,to each his own.

For the prices I bought the 4' lights I have, I'm perfectly happy to spend a few minutes and rip out the ballast.  I tried a couple of the Costco LED tubes, and they worked fine in the unmodified fixture, however they're twice the price of the equally bright and equally LED ones I bought on-line.

GRJ, just what is inside a ballast?  Figure if anyone knows, you will.

I have 3 pairs of 40-watt worklights over my workbench that must be at least 50 years old, plus a half-dozen newer ones in workshop and garage, and have never replaced a ballast.  Must be that this nuclear-generated electricity we have in Virginia is easier on ballasts.

I did replace the incandescent PAR30's in the train room with BR30 LEDs, and am happy with them.

AFAIK, the traditional rapid start ballast is basically a choke to limit the current.  The rapid start ballast also has a winding that provides the filament voltage. 

FWIW, the reason I blame the ballasts is the bulbs are replaced and the fixture still doesn't work.  Move the bulbs to a working fixture and they're fine.  Move the working bulbs to the problem fixture and they don't work.

I don't really know what goes bad in a ballast, but I'm guessing they must have some other component, hard to believe windings go bad.

Thanks, John.  Back around 2011 when it was said that the T-12 40-watt fluorescents were to become illegal and be replaced by 32-watters, I bought a box of 10.  So I still have quite a few and, as long as they work, no point in replacing.  But Lowes still sells a box of 10 T-12's for $21.60.

I do notice that the LED lights are compared to T-8 fluorescents, which were smaller and dimmer at 32 watts.

I just took apart a "Lights of America" 2 tube fluorescent fixture that pooped out on one side. This fixture was in the 14.95 category, so it wasn't much.

This fixture had 2 separate "ballasts," both made out of piece parts. Each bulb was completely independent. One side of the filament on one end was connected to power line common. One side of the filament on the other end was connected in series through a 400mH choke and a 5 microfarad NP capacitor to the power line hot. The two remaining filament connections were tied together through an electronic starter, basically a triac, zener diode and a few resistors. I did trace out the circuit if anybody really cares.

What truly astonished me was the construction of the capacitors. These were plain old foil capacitors but they had no outer casing; the outer foil was insulated by the plastic end of the fixture. The problem was that one of the capacitors had partially burned out  - looks like it had an internal fault that cleared safely, but after that its capacitance was only 2 microfarads and it didn't work. Thought about replacing it but couldn't justify the cost in a cheap old fixture like that. 

The chokes looked good and I almost saved them, but I didn't. 

I replaced the fixture with the LED one from Home Depot shown earlier in the thread. If that holds up it will be a nice fixture, but the connector and connector cord make it difficult to daisy-chain the units below joists on 16 inch centers. Other than that I like it just fine, good light pattern and color. Hope it lasts!

RJR posted:

Thanks, John.  Back around 2011 when it was said that the T-12 40-watt fluorescents were to become illegal and be replaced by 32-watters, I bought a box of 10.  So I still have quite a few and, as long as they work, no point in replacing.  But Lowes still sells a box of 10 T-12's for $21.60.

I do notice that the LED lights are compared to T-8 fluorescents, which were smaller and dimmer at 32 watts.

Ballasts are rated specifically by the power of the tubes as that's the amount of current limiting provided.

I will say, I replaced the tubes in my fixtures with the LED tubes and the difference in light output is significant, the LED's are MUCH brighter!  I still have a few fixtures to go...

John, Were the old fixtures 32-watt T-8s or 40-watt T-12s?  The sample Feit LED 2-tube worklight in Costco didn't seem particularly bright to me.  On the other hand, replacing the fluorescents is my sister's kitchen (I forget the size) with LEDs was a vast improvement.

Ricko, I do agree that the color rendering of an LED is far superior to a fluorescent.

Mine are all 27 year old T12 fixtures.  FWIW, the one pair of tubes I bought as Costco a few weeks back was nice and bright as well, much better than the remaining T12 fluorescent fixtures with stock bulbs.

Thanks for all the posts !!!

Great topic & info !!!