Curious to learn of lessons learned the hard way--things you wish you had done differently, but so significant, you would really need to start over to change them. Some possibilities that occur to me are minimum curve radius, brands of track, switches, or switch machines, or layout location. There may be others. We can always retire one bum car or loco, but some changes are more daunting.
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I designed and built a 15x19-feet L-shaped layout in an added-on room (formerly a home office for the previous owner) at our house. Although I skimped on perimeter aisle space, the layout platforms would handle O42 curves - nothing larger. But I built it anyway, knowing that several of my best locos would become "shelf queens" forever because they require larger-radius curves.
I have designed (but can't afford to build) a ceiling-mounted route with O72 curves to accommodate the "queens" in my collection. If/when I win the lottery, I would re-build the add-on room, enlarge its size, stretch the platforms, and enjoy running those trains on O72 tracks.
Mike Mottler LCCA 12394
Ken,
Interesting topic! I think most would find a few things but for me, the single largest was switching from tubular to Fasttrac in the recent past (mostly 2021) , I made that choice based on local availability since my layout was somewhat of a "see where it goes next" affair. I drove by my fav local shop quite often during my work days and was always picking up another switch or pieces of track. I was never in love with the look, but def took advantage of no shipping, no sales tax and supporting a great local New Hampshire business.
Fast forward to 2023. I'm retired now and have time to look here on OGRF and drool over much more authentic looking raw product, which when coupled with the fantastic scenery and buildings I see on other layouts, I'm even less in love with the new track I chose. It's all bought and paid for, but now on SS with limited income, it's unlikely that any change will be attempted to re-track everything....must to my chagrin.
Me thinks I just rose to the level of "would really need to start over to change them" as your post inquires, although hardly worth a medal for that achievement! LOL
Bob (Endless Tracks)
I guess I'm a throw back because the big model railroad transition I made was back in the late 1990s when I switched from Postwar tubular 027 to Postwar tubular O Gauge.
I like Postwar O Gauge a lot.. Why? Because of nostalgia, because a cousin of mine, who was 4 or 5 years older than me had it when I was a kid, and because I love the look and operation of 022 switch tracks that have fixed voltage plugs..Also, because used tubular O Gauge is much sturdier and less likely to warp than used Postwar tubular 027, and bigger engines can be run on Postwar tubular O Gauge with 031 radius than Postwar tubular 027 with 027 radius. And, of course, a big plus for me is how plentiful and economical used Postwar tubular O Gauge track and 022 switches are.
I like the way Gargraves, Ross, Atlas and other modern track looks, but it's not for me, mainly because of the cost and because I am still happy with used Postwar tubular O Gauge, which has also stood the test of time. Wider radius used Postwar tubular O gauge is great, and, indeed, I have some such wider radius track sections on my layout, but most of them are 031 radius.
Another reason I'm a throwback is I once saw, and held in my hands, some T rail track and switches on a table at a train show, and I was very positively impressed with it. It was sturdy as a rock, and looked great IMO, but it's rare and way too expensive to buy in quantity.
Arnold
I built my layout in the center of the basement and built shelves all around the walls. In hindsight, I would have built the layout around the walls to allow for broader curves and shorter reaches - still could have had some shelves above and below the layout. The biggest impediment to doing it now is having to box up and store everything that's on the walls.
@Arnold D. Cribari posted:I guess I'm a throw back because the big model railroad transition I made was back in the late 1990s when I switched from Postwar tubular 027 to Postwar tubular O Gauge.
I like Postwar O Gauge a lot.. Why? Because of nostalgia, because a cousin of mine, who was 4 or 5 years older than me had it when I was a kid, and because I love the look and operation of 022 switch tracks that have fixed voltage plugs..Also, because used tubular O Gauge is much sturdier and less likely to warp than used Postwar tubular 027, and bigger engines can be run on Postwar tubular O Gauge with 031 radius than Postwar tubular 027 with 027 radius. And, of course, a big plus for me is how plentiful and economical used Postwar tubular O Gauge track and 022 switches are.
I like the way Gargraves, Ross, Atlas and other modern track looks, but it's not for me, mainly because of the cost and because I am still happy with used Postwar tubular O Gauge, which has also stood the test of time. Wider radius used Postwar tubular O gauge is great, and, indeed, I have some such wider radius track sections on my layout, but most of them are 031 radius.
Another reason I'm a throwback is I once saw, and held in my hands, some T rail track and switches on a table at a train show, and I was very positively impressed with it. It was sturdy as a rock, and looked great IMO, but it's rare and way too expensive to buy in quantity.
Arnold
I'm also a fan of tubular track - sturdy, easy to cut custom pieces, abundant and inexpensive now that nobody else wants it.
I didn't plan my layout for operations well enough. I wish I had more switching locations or industries to offer more chores for operations. And I might even consider having the entire layout single-track instead of mostly double-track. It would be harder to run trains alone, but that isn't any fun anyway. The true fun for me is having sessions with friends.
Art
@Mallard4468 posted:I'm also a fan of tubular track - sturdy, easy to cut custom pieces, abundant and inexpensive now that nobody else wants it.
Exactly!
@Mallard4468 posted:I built my layout in the center of the basement and built shelves all around the walls. In hindsight, I would have built the layout around the walls to allow for broader curves and shorter reaches - still could have had some shelves above and below the layout. The biggest impediment to doing it now is having to box up and store everything that's on the walls.
Another advantage of an around the walls layout, which I have, is that the walls can become part of your scenery through the use of backdrops, either homemade or purchased, and such backdrops can greatly enhance photos and videos of one's trains and layout. I first became mindful of this many years ago by a video of Phil Klopp's layout in which Phil mentioned this. Arnold
I wish I had started off using either Atlas or Gargraves track, and Ross Switches. I had experience with HO and flex track, but the trackwork aspect frustrated me so much that I reacted and went to a track with integrated roadbed for simplicity's sake. So, I COULD have carried off the more detailed track.
...I'd start collecting cigar bands!
To quote the late Don Wertz.
I would have definitely made the feed and switch wires, where they come out from the side of the table into my control box, 4 feet long instead of one foot long. This would have made it a whole lot easier to move the box around, and to trace or install wires. This was a huge mistake.
On the other hand, my entire life is an enormous bag of regrets, . . . so where to start?
Mannyrock
I would have started in 2 rail O when I moved from HO and N in 2003 and as a result would have had perhaps 1/0th of the trains I have today, the space to enjoy them more, and much more focus on modeling over collecting.
Wait. Who am I kidding? I'm a collector as much as a modeler. I wouldn't have done anything differently 
I am a grumpy old man and I love my LionChief Plus 1.0 with WiFi... I would have purchased more when I had a chance. I didn't know that Lionel was phasing it out. I hate LionChief Plus 2.0 because:
I would have stayed with HO or pre-war post war trains.
I would have used dimensional lumber instead of furring strips to get a more square/level table. I didn't know the difference and didn't realized what was going on until it was too late. I still have a pretty flat surface but it would have been much less work if I had used nicer 1x3s to frame the plywood.
I also would have used plywood instead of MDF/masonite for the backdrop. The double sided carpet tape was excellent but trying to stick it to a non-planar surface was a doozy.
Those have been my biggest regrets so far. I overcame both of them with some assistance from a patient OGR member and my girlfriend but it was a lot of work.
Would have built the layout higher. 36 inch was ok when I was 40 - 36 inch is NOT ok now !! Hate doing the low crawl when I have to do work under the layout !! Also No Duck under !!
If I had the chance to start all over again, assuming that my intention was to begin a journey in O scale, I would have done the following:
I think that covers it. Thanks for listening. Heading off to the corner market now to buy a lottery ticket.
Good idea.
@Mooner posted:If I had the chance to start all over again, assuming that my intention was to begin a journey in O scale, I would have done the following:
- Gone to a hobby shop that features O scale. Our entry into O scale was buying a Lionel starter set from a local hobby shop that sold games, models, dolls, race car sets, marbles, and a lot more HO than O scale trains. We got what they had and when we wanted to expand, naturally we just added more of the same (see following "would have dones"). Given the state of hobby shops today, this is likely an unrealistic do-over at the local level, but there are great YouTube videos out there about getting started (thinking Mr. Muffin's intro videos) and tons of info on multiple forums.
- Bought Atlas track from the beginning instead of thinking the only way to keep adding on was to buy more FasTrack. Personal preference on Atlas track for the look and sound. Not being exposed to different track at the hobby shop, I just kept looking for what I needed with what I started with and as the layout got bigger and bigger, and going from straights and curves to switches, crossovers, sidings, and 2nd level. Changing out to Atlas later was time consuming and expensive both in trying to replicate what I had and in selling off hundreds of pieces of FasTrack at a discount. Enjoyed the time we had with the FasTrack layout, but again since we're talking about wishes, wish I had started with Atlas.
- Bought scale engines and rolling stock. Everything we had originally was Lionel traditional or similar from other manufacturers. Any scale size rolling stock always looked huge to me in comparison but as my interest in real trains grew with my interest in the hobby world, I wanted more scale items. Eventually sold off all our traditional sized engines and rolling stock - again in the 100s of pieces - and the time and effort to convert was significant.
- Stuck with one operating system. We bought engines first and then added whatever operating system was needed to run it and wound up with both Lionel and MTH command systems. It was a significant investment having both and today I find myself simplifying and being satisfied with whatever engines are available in one system.
- Been more measured and less impulsive in my purchases. This is probably a "life" do-over more than train hobby 2nd chance, but just thinking about what to do next on our layout had me uttering a modified version of Wimpy's, "I'd gladly pay you on Tuesday for a hamburger today." Tuesday's overpromise turns into Wednesday and then next Tuesday and then next quarter when the corporate bonus is paid... you get the point. More, dusty on a shelf, in a box under the layout, lined up on a siding, isn't always better.
- Gone to my first train show sooner. The hobby for us really took off once we were exposed to a big show. Living just south of Springfield, MA we saw the ads for the Amherst Show for years before ever going. After attending, we then made it out to York. The exposure to everything there is to know and learn about the hobby was eye opening. Of course, this idea runs a bit counter to being less impulsive (#5) which leads me to my next point.
- Studied harder in school. Probably spent too much time going to pub nickel nights and playing Nerf basketball in the dorm rather than applying myself in college. Had I been more focused on my studies, I would have graduated magna cum laude, had more job opportunities coming out of college (or at least one), and risen up the ranks of corporate America. This would have made points 2-5 irrelevant. Fully loaded ($), I would engage a design company to build a gigantic FasTrack traditional Polar Express layout on the 1st floor of our temperature-controlled outbuilding at our vacation ranch in Wyoming, and a command controlled (MTH/Lionel both) scale layout with Atlas track on the 2nd floor. Oh, and with restrooms on the 1st floor and a sports bar on the 2nd...plus an elevator.
I think that covers it. Thanks for listening. Heading off to the corner market now to buy a lottery ticket.
Great advice IMO. Thanks, Mooner, for sharing this. Arnold
Good topic. My experience mirrors that of @rrgeorge :
1) Build table using at least 40" legs. Mine was originally 36" but later I raised it to 40". The old version of yourself will appreciate that!
2) Build a walk-around layout rather than a duck-under. (It's a getting older thing!)
3) Finish the walls, ceiling and floors of your train room before you build the table. (Seems obvious, but in the rush to get a working layout built, well...)
Great topic that is quite thought provoking to say the least. Personally I was operating a retail hobby shop just a few months after my first son was born back in 1987. We flew and competed with RC airplanes and had a multipurpose RC racetrack for the cars. Great father and son activity at the time. One day after being open about a year a fella came in on a Saturday wanting to be an 'official' Lionel Service Station and we hit it off. I retrieved my 1947/48 Gilbert American Flyer set from my Dad in a neighboring town and my new friend George whipped it into first class shape. We became Lionel Service Station #224 that operates today as 'Uncle Sams Trains' north of New Orleans. George's services are in great demand still.
I had to do a lot of catching up with postwar Lionel only remembering them from my childhood as us American Flyer guys had a subconscious disdain for the 'toy' guys with the 3 rail track! Ha! We were deluded by Gilbert's clever advertising about Flyer being 'accurate scale models'. I wish that Santa had brought me a nice Lionel 726 freight set followed by the 'Mighty Southern' F3 set in 1953! At 5 1/2 years of age in 1949 I seriously doubt I could have lifted and safely handled the massive Berkshire! The F3s were really heavy as well.
Our tastes and focus of interest change over the years and my interest now is mostly scale O gauge equipment. Is 2 rail O in my future? Don't know for certain at this point but I still have the American Flyer PRR K5 and a Southern 2356 F3 ABA. Looking for a nice 726 Berkshire too.
I would have instead transitioned to S gauge when I re-ignighted my train interest by dusting off my childhood Lionel set from 1966 some 20 years later. S offers better & realistic proportion & the opportunity to fit more stuff into the same area.
I already have. . .some things I did differently:
My biggest mistake was not foreseeing (or absorbing) the shift in the late 1990s to scale length 80' passenger coaches. I designed my four track central station to accommodate trains six to eight feet long; who could possibly need more than that? Today I run twelve foot or longer trains, but when one enters the station the other three tracks are blocked...
Switched to HO or N. That way instead of bankrupting myself tracking down rare and expensive CNW and EJ&E items in O-scale, I could have bankrupted myself on the massive, awesome variety of European models available in those scales.
There are two other things I would do differently in designing my layout: First, I would include more train length passing sidings to facilitate multi train operation on the main lines. Second, I would include what the Brits call a fiddle yard - a storage yard for additional trains, often hidden from view. This is another technique for swapping out trains during operating sessions.
Not using all gargraves track from the start.
Not using all ross switches from the start.
Not weathering the track BEFORE it was installed.
Using dc commanders instead of cruise commanders for tmcc upgrades.
Many more little regrets but still undoing the above.
@necrails posted:Not using all gargraves track from the start.
Not using all ross switches from the start.
Not weathering the track BEFORE it was installed.
Using dc commanders instead of cruise commanders for tmcc upgrades.
Many more little regrets but still undoing the above.
Please elaborate about your experience with Gargraves, Ross, and cruise commanders! I want to understand your concerns.
Wonderful thread. While I love my layout, there are a few things that I would do differently.
Unless you have seen my YouTube videos 2-4 will make no sense.
John
I'll jump on the "I wish I had an around the walls layout" bandwagon. I have a 4'x10' layout shoved in a corner. No access from rear wall and the right side os only 18" away from a wall. Makes it hard to do serious scenery.
In my case this isnt really a regret. My basement also has to accommodate some kids toys, entertainment center, a couch and a loveseat. So in about 10-15 years I can have free reign of a good sized area if I still desire.
@Ken Wing posted:Please elaborate about your experience with Gargraves, Ross, and cruise commanders! I want to understand your concerns.
Ross switches are much more reliable. Things ride rough over the 042 frogs.
I used dc commanders to save some money, cruise commander allows a steady speed regardless of grade changes, performs better, it was a penny wise pound foolish choice.
@Ken Wing posted:Please elaborate about your experience with Gargraves, Ross, and cruise commanders! I want to understand your concerns.
I don’t think these were concerns. What he listed were regrets.
…I would have stuck with HO for one primary reason… DCC.
@rplst8 posted:…I would have stuck with HO for one primary reason… DCC.
DCC runs just fine on 3 rail O gauge.
@rplst8 posted:Understood. My point was that I would have rather not invested as much money as I have in proprietary command control systems (MTH, TMCC, Legacy) that now would require a very significant cost to switch.
I hear you. I think my roster is small enough (less than 50 Loco 's), that I could sell my DCS and Legacy systems to pay for it all. I actually have more DCC locomotives than DCS, and just as many as TMCC. If I could start over, it would be with DCC.
Darrell, are you saying there are non-proprietary DCC systems available in O gauge? I am only aware of the proprietary MTH and Lionel systems. Please elaborate.
@Darrell posted:I hear you. I think my roster is small enough (less than 50 Loco 's), that I could sell my DCS and Legacy systems to pay for it all. I actually have more DCC locomotives than DCS, and just as many as TMCC. If I could start over, it would be with DCC.
Hmm. I hadn't considered the profit from selling the systems in the locos. However, it's still A LOT of work to replace a control system, work I'd rather spend on the actual layout. But thank you for that suggestion.
@Ken Wing posted:Darrell, are you saying there are non-proprietary DCC systems available in O gauge? I am only aware of the proprietary MTH and Lionel systems. Please elaborate.
ALL MTH PS-3 engines are equipped with a DCC Decoder and can be operated/controlled by any DCC "throttle". Nothing proprietary about it. PS-3 cannot become orphaned. Don't like [current] MTH DCS control apparatus? Switch to any DCC control system.
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