Industrial Siding Design

Pardon me, but I haven't seen the previous comments on this.  However, required reading IMO for this would be this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Track-P...roader/dp/0890242275

I've gotten a lot of useful information out of this book and highly recommend it.

George

Thanks.  Snagged that as well as Realistic Model Railroad Operation.  Should make for interesting reading, even if I don't have the space to implement many ideas. 

Good luck with your project.  You have an interesting track plan.

George

Fridge,

Hey, how's it going? Just a question and a thought or two...

Are you really committed to steam operation and service (or the transition period) enough to have a TT/Roundhouse facility? It eats a lot of space.

Perhaps consider one side on the right for mfg/producers and the other side for customers. It would add some operational fun.

It looks good operationally. One train can run an unattended route (mostly blue line), One can pick up and deliver and return empties between the sides and yard/service operations can be going on. You could have 3 people for a session and stay out of one another's way. You only have the one collision point between the lower wye and the bridge.

The run-around or escape track should have the switches near the ends. For example, enter engine first, uncouple and back out around. If your running steam or transition, managing the cabeese gets tricky.

I keep bugging Mixy to get the simulation into SCARM. It's a lot of programming.

I would be concerned about access to the roundhouse area. It's a very long reach from the table edges. 

Here is a quicky revision to show a possibility with a larger central access and a single straight wider lift-bridge section. Yard tracks are shifted to another area. There are lots of possibilities to rework and refine this further to improve track alignments and spur arrangements and to minimize cutting of track. Suggest you eliminate the curved turnouts.

Question: how popular is it to combine Ross switches with Atlas track? That's what I see in the SCARM plan. How do they look together?

Moonman:  1.)  Yes, my favorite time frame by far is the transition era.  I love big steam - have the Legacy Y6b & W&LE 2-6-6-2 Mallet, as well as an Allegheny on order.  Also just snagged a Pilot Legacy S2 Turbine from Lantz's right before they closed.  Thinking of digging up the recipe for "Polar Blue" paint that's floating around here & doing my fantasy "Polar & Ohio" (my layout's name) paint scheme & using it for my scale Polar Express cars, as the Legacy Berkshire's are scarce & expensive.  So yes, I'm committed to that era.  2.)  Thanks.  Glad to hear that you think the basic design is rather do-able operationally.  My goal was to leave enough room behind the switches to hold a diesel switcher plus one car.  If you think this is too much I can shift them a bit towards the end of the spurs.   

Ace:  1.)  I was planning on utilizing the drop-down turntable trick for access to that part of the layout.  At 6'4" I have a pretty good reach (especially if I can shrink the gut down some ).  Will likely have an access hatch in that back corner (where the transparent interior wall is), too.  There will also be a large access hatch in the opposite corner, as that 6" PVC pipe is basically the water outflow from the house to the septic tank.  Hopefully won't need to access that as long as the layout's around....  2.)  I've played with designs that better showcase the engine complex, but it seems like I have to compromise too much.  If you still have the modified SCARM file, though, I'd like to play with it a bit & see what I can do.  If I only had another two feet of length to work with....  3.)  My understanding is that Ross track will mate fine w/Atlas using the standard Atlas connecters.  I've heard of a number of folks on the forum that have used that combination, especially when the Atlas switches were in short supply.

As we've drifted off into the general layout design, I figured I might as well share my tentative expansion plans for the layout.  May give some insight to why I've done some of the things I've done with my design.  As the name "Polar & Ohio" suggests, it will be an winter scene in the Appalachain foothills.  1930s to 1950s, both smaller town & rural.  I've limited myself to railroads with a presence in Ohio at that time (NYC, B&O, C&O, W&LE as of now, could add others, with the fictional Polar Railroad replacing Pensy). 

Phase II:  As previously mentioned, my next expansion will be to take it to a true around-the-room layout.  I could do either a single or double track line, though the former is more likely to fly with the wife (unless I put an addition onto the house for her, giving her a space all her own).  It may also depend on whether the Atlas 40" Truss Bridge ever becomes available again in single or double track.  The outer loop will become the mainline, and the Phase I loop becomes a siding and turn-around track.  I lose the coal facility and part of the run-around area in the industrial area gets shared by the mainline, but could maybe tweak the design to remedy the latter if I have the space to work with.

Note:  I've tweaked some things on "Phase II" since I last worked on III & IV, so there may be some inconsistencies. 

Phase III:   It will be a good number of years before this part of the plan comes to fruition, as the other side of the basement will be some general storage & also kids' play area.  The main loop will be expanded to include an additional loop and double crossover for an additional way to turn around long trains.  There will be a long siding for access to the new and much larger coal loading facility.  Will definitely want to review design ideas for this area.  There's also a double spur to serve various smaller businesses and a small (and probably seedy - have a few of Andre's buildings in mind for here ) coal mining town.  Again, I'd want to be able to accommodate a larger coal train at the facility while still being able to run long trains around the perimeter.  When I go through the interior wall (transparent) I'm thinking I'll make it a large window and not just a pair of tunnels, but that's not certain. 

Phase IV:  This assumes I have full control of the basement - probably a pipe dream, but hey - I'm dreaming, so....  Haven't figured out how I'll design the inside of the loop yet, but it will contain a power plant and possibly a few other small businesses.  The loop will be an uphill climb to a girder & truss bridge viaduct to a shelf on the back wall of the basement.  This will allow trains to bypass the "town" area in the alcove. 

Well, that's about all my brain's got for now.  I think I've got everything right so far.  I've also included my SCARM files for your enjoyment.  Thanks again for the advice & input, & hope for more feedback in the near future. 

Fridge,

The only other thought that came to me is that the two siding sections along the walls of the lounge area limit the total length of your train if you want to reverse direction. Backing through either wye would let you prototypically change direction.

Not having the loop around the lounge area put a crimp on the running. I can understand that blocking the stair entrance to the room with a lift-up may have appeared to the Mrs. as an annoyance, but I think you should work on that before the benchwork for 17 is completed. (I am looking for the link for a new method that a guy's spouse (an aerospace engineer) designed. Clever and sturdy for a high traffic area.)

You would only need a narrow shelf along the wall with the thingy, perhaps not as wide as in Layout 15.

Glad to hear you are finally close to building.

The Y6 is a doable size,  The scale length H-8 and S are a real bear on tight layouts.  You basically have an excellent shifting layout plan.  Large steam could very well cramp it.

Can you overlay a 1' scale grid on your plan?    What size is the room?  What size curves are you using?

I mix Ross with Atlas routinely.  Do not use the flimsy half pin half rail joiner Atlas mating joiners

A neighbor who is also tight on real estate has already built an 0 scale layout very much along these same design thoughts.  It works out great for a industrial layout.

Is there anyway to move the TT & RH off site.  Nothing eats up real estate like them.

Keep the co-chairperson happy by using nicely finishes hardwood edging like Mike CT has done.  His layout has somewhat similar ideas and constraints.

I located two of my TTs into an adjacent room just so as to not crowd out the main RR setting.

I really like you plan theme, IMO, keep on tweaking but retain the essence.

Tom,

SCARM has one quirk that can't be fixed. The grid that can be shown is in 5" increments and distances are worked in inches. Anyway, here is a grid shot with rulers on the edges of layout 17-1. The curve diameters are O81 blue, O72 yellow and purple, O90 and flex turquoise.

Moonman:   1.)  Yeah, not having the big loop complete really hurts, though I'm not sure how much I'm willing to push my luck initially.  Not sure how welcoming she'd be having my trains in her area, anyways.  It's possible "Phase I" does this too much already- hoping to sell this by making the support structure into finished shelves or cabinets.  Also we have a baby girl due in January, so the layout project is somewhat on the back burner anyways.  The priority (outside of the nursery) is getting this room semi-finished for use as both a lounge/retreat for the wife as well as an alternate sleeping area for my teenage stepson for school nights when there's a noisy baby in the next room.  2.)  I designed the "shelves" at 8" depth minimum, as I had planned on making the layout supports into bookshelves, cabinets, etc. and finishing them with a nice stain or coat of paint.  I'm also not eager to drill into the masonry for a shelf unless I need to (the 3 grey walls in the images are painted cinderblocks).  Not sure if I want to do a lift-up or lift-out for the bridge section. 

Tom:  1.)  Minimum curve is O-72, save some of the yard areas which are O-54.  I could upgrade the switches in the industrial zones to O-72, but figured I wouldn't be using any engines or cars there that would require such a radius.  There's also an O-72xO-52 curved switch for the yard; the last switch to the right in the upper yard is also O-54.  In "Phase II" the only area of O-72 on the main line would be at the upper wye.  Taking this out to O-80/81 would really push the curve into the room, though.  The room is roughly 14'x24' with the cutout being 6'x8'.  the left wall is roughly 12' long, due to a shift in the wall to accommodate the furnace & water heater on the other side.  2.)  I was planning on using the standard Atlas rail joiners, not the transition pin ones.  I think this is what you mean.  3.)   As mentioned above, the plan was for the bench work to me made into finished shelving and/or cabinets.  A nice hardwood facing would serve both to add a nice, finished look as well as a low barrier in case of derailment.   4.)  I could possibly relocate the TT & Roundhouse to the other side of the wall using the existing switch & track to nowhere in the lower left.  However, the other half of the basement is going to be play area for small children, so I'm not eager to locate nice models & pricey engines there if I can help it.  The current layout/lounge room would be completely closed off from the rest of the basement as an "adults" area, which works well. 

Thanks again for the thoughts & comments. 

Forgot to add:  Parallel tracks are at least 4.5" center rail to center rail, and at least 3" between track & wall. 

Have gotten several chapters into the Track Planning book and was fiddling around with the design.  Realized that with a little modification to my Phase II layout I could make the outer main-room loop into an industrial siding as well as one for passing.  Granted, the main line will have to transfer from the outer loop (around the service facility) to the inner loop (lounge) at the lower wye during switching operations.   Any thoughts?  SCARM file attached. 

Fiddled around a little more, and eliminated the crossover  between the inner & outer loops at the alcove on the back side of the layout. Had to sacrifice a little yard & engine service space to do it, but it would keep the inner loop & eventual around-the-room outer loop from interfering with each other once Phase II is completed.  The downside is that I have a double crossover in the way back of the layout.  The drop-down turntable trick should help with access, though.  Any thoughts or comments are appreciated. 

By the way - how do you get the SCARM work screen images to save as .jpgs?  Would be much more legible than the diagram "photos," I think. 

Fridge,

Use the File>Export function for the track plan. There is a context menu with an arrow button to select file type .jpg. In 3D, use the camera icon and select the .jpg from the menu.

I use the "snipping tool" in Windows. Just type snip in the search box and pin the shortcut result to taskbar. Let's you get a pic of anything on the screen.

Well, I tried to fit the #175 4-way as the bridge over the aisle. No joy. It's Too long. You'll need one of the handle grabbers to deal with any issues on that back wall and the round house.

I noticed that you used a decent amount flex track. Atlas flex is not something you want to use. The solid nickel-silver rail is a b*@^h to bend. The guy that made the coolest tool to bend it passed away and no one knows why the tool isn't being made. ( Norm's Model Supply railbender) You may want to refit with cut sectional. Ingenerio No. 1 went back to sectional when building his huge layout.

Have you tried the simulator in SCARM to check how the layout flows?

Carl:

Thanks - got the track plan image to work.  That'll be much easier on the eyes down the line.  Nice idea w/the #175, but I'd still want a crossover to enable engines & trans to exit the yard/service area onto (what hopefully, eventually will one day be) the main line. 

Iplan on using sectional wherever I can, & limiting the flex track.  Unfortunately, SCARM forces me to use it to fudge together some joints that just don't quite want to link up on the program.  I bought a bunch of lightly used Atlas O track from Pat's a year or so ago and have a lot of already cut random length straight sections to use & re-cut as needed for the custom non-curved pieces.  I have some flex Atlas O, & my early take just from fiddling with it a bit is that I want to leave it factory straight until I'm ready to bend for real.  I think I'll get as much sectional down as I can, then trace the line I want, then bend accordingly from origin to insertion - once, if at all possible.

 Keep the roundhouse and TT! Always an awesome sight....Plan looks like a lot of fun 

Al

Al.  Don't worry, I'll definitely be keeping the roundhouse & TT.  Just hoping I have room for a Korber w/at least 2 extensions (3-4 would be great).  If I'm doing my mental math right I'd have room for 6" of track between the TT & roundhouse door and still be able to fit the extensions in. 

Love watching the progress of your layout, BTW.  Thanks for posting!