Originally Posted by Peter E B:
Is the dreaded "I" word coming to On30??
Peter
You mean Jimmy Carters buddy? The one that fills inner tubes, and causes consumers dread? Heck I thought that word might be censured today.
You can lay the blame on Sanda Khan. They're the manufacturer in China that makes the trains that Bachmann sells.
They call the tune, B-mann dances & we pay the piper.
Be prepared to pay even more in the future since Chinese workers are now wanting a liveable wage.
Dave
Originally Posted by jim pastorius:
I was interested in On30 until I saw the pricing. No way. I thought of using HO track with slightly smaller cars on HO trucks. Using Marx and AF cars or scratch build some cars. There are some nice Marx injection molded cars around that they made. I have some, they are slightly smaller than the Lionel.
American Flyer hoppers, flats, boxcars, and others are a close physical size to On30. I've converted their steel hoppers to On30 by making bolsters and replacing some of the cast-on details. You can pick up these cars for as cheap as $5 apiece.
BTW, Trainworld has a sale on now for some of the Bachmann locos.
Originally Posted by djacobsen:
You can lay the blame on Sanda Khan. They're the manufacturer in China that makes the trains that Bachmann sells.
They call the tune, B-mann dances & we pay the piper.
Be prepared to pay even more in the future since Chinese workers are now wanting a liveable wage.
Dave
To clarify, Bachmann and Sanda Kan are part of the same ownership group, Kader Holdings.
Originally Posted by ScottyB:
- The current price of a Bachmann boxcar at The Favorite Spot is $36, and the current price for an AMS On30 boxcar at RLD is $37. Look at the two!
- Bachmann really had something going there. And perhaps the price increase is unavoidable - they do need to make a profit after all. But I am guessing the On30 market has plateaued and at the current street prices, I don't forsee many newcomers to the scale.
These are both good points.
At a hobby shop over the weekend, I heard someone compare Bachmann and On30 to a drug dealer. He said that Bachmann came out with inexpensive, good On30 stuff to get people's teeth into a gauge they'd normally never venture into, then jacked the prices up once people had a layout built and really couldn't afford to switch to something else.
Honestly, I got into On30 (and back into model trains since I left the hobby in the 90s) only because Bachmann made the prototype I'd always wanted (ET&WNC ten-wheelers) in a scale I could do something with. Heck, someone later came out with HOn3 versions of the ame locomotives and I might have gone HOn3 if they'd come out with their brass engines with a price tag I could justify to myself.
But if someone else had come out with the same locomotives in, say, On3, that's what I'd be modeling right now. For me, it was never a mindset of, "I wanna build a layout, what should I model?" as I only would have ever built a layout if I could model the specific RR I wanted. Bachmann just happened to be first in On30 so that's where I am now.
Again, I'm glad I bought all my rolling stock when you could easily get freight cars at about $20 each. As Scotty pointed out, they're not that great as $40 cars, but for $20, they were great for that price...
On the plus side, I've been selling just a bit of my On30 to fund a new (scale that won't be mentioned here but my son loves modern standard gauge equipment) layout. Been doubling or even tripling my money from what I originally spent.
I believe this is from 2006 in Model Railroader (buy low, sell high!):
Hey guys we did it to ourselves! Bachmann had NO intention of MAKING a new scale! Their target market was LADIES that had Dept 56 Christmas layouts! PERIOD! All of the first release were all Christmas themed. WE as modelers saw these killer cars and engines at bargain prices, compared to BRASS ON3 stuff, and we jumped in. The rest they say is history! BTW it's still cheaper than ON3! 
Russ
Originally Posted by ChiloquinRuss:
BTW it's still cheaper than ON3!
Locomotives, yes, as the alternative is usually brass. But rolling stock? Not anymore.
I think the market is pushing the profits of On30 to their limits, and yes I think it will limit further entry, and limit future sales. I still want a narrow gauge line, but bashing my own seems more attractive every day. Buying a new one has dropped quickly on my priority list.
Originally Posted by ChiloquinRuss:
Hey guys we did it to ourselves! Bachmann had NO intention of MAKING a new scale! Their target market was LADIES that had Dept 56 Christmas layouts! PERIOD! All of the first release were all Christmas themed. WE as modelers saw these killer cars and engines at bargain prices, compared to BRASS ON3 stuff, and we jumped in. The rest they say is history! BTW it's still cheaper than ON3! Russ
Intensions mentioned, I don't argue with.
But "bargain prices" for nice scale locos aimed at "Ladies" were profitable. Now they've become barely profitable? And much more expensive, after the market size increased, and a firm sub-market has been established? 
There is no reason not to offer Christmas versions of the newer stuff too. You want the female 25-40 year old holiday buck carriers to all lose their minds? Paint a Porter red & white, and call it "The Holiday Tea Pot" A green low buck Whitcomb for a more modern look? 
(that msrp hit about $150 more than most I know expected)
The more I look, it seems like shooting fish already in the barrel to me. Glub, glub...
They have established a now intentional, and almost uncontested production of On30 as a scale now. Our fault only if we refuse to vote new with our money. (like that happens anymore
). Can't blame Bachmann directly for the online market. But lack of supply, and very high in house msrp doesn't help 
.
.
I hold brass offerings to totally different standards, and I think their pricings are more consistent in meeting expectations across scales. Anything is possible for enough dough too. I think its exclusiveness is mostly deserved.
Let these increases warn of much more to come. Inside my industry (health insurance) we are seeing large adjustments in employe cost cutting and and cost sharing including downward adjusted government retirements and steep tax increases.
Buy copper wire ahead of any anticipated projects.
There was an interview in the British model railroad press with a senior executive of Bachmann Europe a couple of months ago. He said that Bachmann's costs in China were increasing significantly and that British model railroaders should expect large price increases across all Bachmann product lines. Bachmann is one of the leading producers of trains in the OO gauge British market.
He said that the Chinese government was imposing minimum wages and that competition for both raw materials and skilled labor among companies in all areas are driving the cost increases. Both cell phones and model train manufacturing use plastic, electronics, metal and skilled labor.
It seems as if the Chinese are beginning to enjoy a middle class life style and expect to be paid wages that will support that lifestyle. The good thing is that Chinese will start to have enough money to buy things made or grown in the USA.
Joe
Whatever but it is too pricey. Looking at some HO trucks on some AF rail cars, have an AF loco shell to cut down. Will look for some decent used HO steam running gear to use. Could be a fun kitbash project.
Andy, I remember those days of the wild west of On30 and I agree that it was interesting to see all of the variations people would create. Bachmann came on the scene in 1997. Within a few years, On30 was mostly all Bachmann and the days of the lone wolves building their unique creations ended.
One topic that, to my knowledge has not been defined is, what is On30? What a stupid question you may ask (since everyone is buying Bachmann models), but consider that the Bachmann equipment is to scale and is based on 3' gauge prototypes. The only aspect of the equipment that is 30" gauge is the spacing of the wheels on the axles. Even the trucks look to be made to scale sizes. Back in the wild west days, people usually matched up their engines and cars. Some wanted 3' sized equipment, some leaned toward the 2' equipment, and others came up with designs that were smaller than the 3' prototypes and shorter than the 2' prototypes.
Then there is the coupler issue. It is not realistic to have HO couplers on the passenger cars that hang that low below the endsill. I converted some of the Bachmann models to Kadee On3/S couplers and the models looked great.
About prices, since I have not been into On30 for ten years I am not up on the current prices. But remember it was 1997-2000 when Bachmann first had On30 offerings and they were not DCC nor did they have sound. It seems that model railroading is leaving all of the DC/ACers behind. I wonder how long until trains won't run without some sort of expensive control system.
On the Yahoo group On30 conspiracy, you'll still find a fair number of the lone wolves.
Jack Hess posted:One topic that, to my knowledge has not been defined is, what is On30? What a stupid question you may ask (since everyone is buying Bachmann models), but consider that the Bachmann equipment is to scale and is based on 3' gauge prototypes.
That's not completely true. The Forney and inside frame 4-4-0 are 2' gauge prototypes. The 2-8-0 and outside frame 4-4-0 are 30" gauge prototypes. The Porters and Davenports could be ordered at various gauges.
Jack Hess posted:Then there is the coupler issue. It is not realistic to have HO couplers on the passenger cars that hang that low below the endsill. I converted some of the Bachmann models to Kadee On3/S couplers and the models looked great.
It depends on your prototype. I did Maine Two Foot in On30 and the height that Bachmann set the couplers was perfect for doing that. Even the HO compatible couplers were close to scale size.
I have noticed that Bachmann has had a very huge price increase for any of their products. Look at the prices on their website compared to last year for the price shock!!
You can get some bargains for Bachmann stuff until the supply runs out, old stock is depleted, from on line vendors.
I might be going with MTH for new items or be forced to buy used stuff.
Lee Fritz
While I am in three rail, in that mythical five foot gauge, and not fine scale 4' 8 1/2", I have always been turned off by "On30", wondering why, as now exists, somebody didn't just create the whole system in a ready-to-run On3. If I ever get that far, I hope to have a connecting line and interchange in On3. A lot of articles were written in the magazines about how to correct rolling stock and locos from On30 to On3, all of which seems an unnecessary pain, and is now not affordable, due to cost of the starting base. On the Bay I see a lot of On3 car kits...not so many locos, but that is where I will go. Now if somebody will smarten up and offer affordable ready-to-run On3 locos.....I would be off and running.
Do you get the Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette ?? Great magazine for narrow gauges and nice scenery. I was in On3 and had some nice engines.
