K-Line Big Boy TMCC Issues

The same issues?  I hope you don't have another cooked resistor burning!

Does it run in conventional mode?  If you switch to PGM mode in conventional mode, does that lock it into a single direction? 

Exactly how are you reprogramming it?

You should be using AUX1-4 for this engine after setting the TMCC ID.

If the sounds are coming up immediately with a TMCC command base connected, you are missing the serial communication from the locomotive.  I'd be checking the tether closely.  Another thing, check the routing of the serial data from the R2LC socket (pin 24) to the tether pin.  If you don't get continuity, look on both sides of the motherboard and see if you have a cooked trace.

Hi John,

Thank You for responding -

Yes - The same issue in other words, the tender steam sounds during sitting is heard only when power is first applied to the track - and there is no movement from the loco - Neither with TMCC or Conventional however the bell and Whistle sounds can be enabled from the Power Pack only - Z4000 Bell and Whistle button.

My son tries to reprogram the loco using the CAB-1 function - He is 9 and has surpassed me with knowledge on loco operations.

Hmmm, come to think about it, I might have skipped a step now - Please tell me, after replacing the TMCC board, do i need to do a "Restore TMCC Function"? We did not perform that step.

What we did is just switch the bottom switch from PROG to RUN after providing the train a SET ID number but as stated, the loco just wanted to provide steam sound and that is it. 

The pin 24 you are referring too is on the TMCC board i just replaced, correct?  If so I will do that with the ohm meter to check continuity between both units.

The mention of routing, you are saying the cable I just replaced will include this serial line which is critical to noise and of course routing. Correct?

I will start with the basic troubleshooting steps that you provided.

Thanks John..

Richard

you may need to do a complete reset including (goto electricrr website) the feature code part also not sure GRJ could tell you more but here is the link to what I'm talking about http://www.electricrr.com/Manuals/AcDc-V5-Inst.pdf 

Hi there,

I just tried the steps you recommended- I see the loco respond but still not performing.

After the reset, the front headlight will flash and after the reset goes solid ON but I get no functionality from the loco -

In other words, commands from the CAB-1 is sent, bell, whistle and even dial wheel, and nothing occurs except for the headlight in a solid ON position flash quickly as it received a command but nothing was performed.

So I can scratch the reset off the list and attempt to do a continuity test next.

Let me know if I need to do anything else.

Thanks Again,

Richard

Bill, he doesn't have an ERR setup, so the standard TMCC reset is what he needs.

STEP 1: Move switch on locomotive from run to program.
STEP 2: Turn on Command Base.
STEP 3: Place locomotive on track, then turn on power to track.
STEP 4: Press “ENG” then input locomotive ID#. Press “SET”.
STEP 5: Press ”ENG” then input locomotive ID# again.
STEP 6: Press “AUX 1”, then input the reprogramming code number that corresponds to your locomotive, for this locomotive that would be "4".
STEP 7: Turn off power to track, wait ten seconds.
STEP 8: Remove locomotive from track, move switch from program to run.
STEP 9: Place locomotive back on track. Turn power on to track.
STEP 10: Press “ENG” and ID#, then operate as normal.

Hi John,

I did EXACTLY how your steps are outlined. I had a pamphlet from my archive that I recall having that provides "How-To" instructions to restore TMCC functions. Chris (My son) and I did the steps including the AUX1 - 4 and same response. (No Change)

But thank you for taking the time to help me guys. This engine means a lot to my son as he loves to run it at the train club that we both belong too. (AGHR in San Pedro)

I will do some Ω'ick measurements to see if there is indeed an intermittent or open line. If anyone happens to think of anything else I would greatly appreciate it too.

Thanks,

Richard A.

Does this engine have all the TMCC componets in the tender?  Most I have seen have the R2LC and motor driver in the engine, and the Railsounds are in the tender.  SO the engine can run without the tender.  And the tender can make sounds without the engine.

So what board specifically had the burned component.  Are you sure the wire you reconnected needed to be?  Pictures will help.  G

I have this same locomotive, and it still works, so if needed in problem solving, we can compare it to a know working unit.

I am not sure its been determined if the engine will run in conventional. Have you tried unplugging the Command/Legacy base and see if it run in conventional? If not it could be a bad motor or motor driver board.

Maybe the tender sounds in "command" is just a red herring.

Pete

GGG,

From the looks of things, the engine has the TMCC board and the motor drive board, and the tender has the sound board. The board I replaced is within the loco engine and the cable with the open wire was within the cable coming from the tender.

So from your description, the boards are in the correct configuration -

The TMCC board within the loco had the resistor burnt - I matched the board with the new one I purchased from Brassuer -

I am sure the wire that had broken is a necessary wire that must make connection from loco to tender. Those typical 6 wire connector (5 in use) - 3 pins in a row, top and bottom has the wires all going to specific connector pin assignments - except for the red wire which ties in a loom of red wires with a wire nut for power.

I will try to get pics to show exactly what i replaced. Thanks for your reply -

Sinclair,

That would really be appreciated. I will try everything that the folks have so far advised me to try first. Thanks again -

Norton,

I have yet to get the loco to run on conventional other than the sounds working. Perhaps that is the other thing that went out being the motor drive board. This loco has two motors, having both motors fail is not likely but a motor driver board is more probable. Thanks for responding.

I will open up the loco and tender and take photos of the inside. Perhaps that may be a start.

Thanks for all your support and advise.

Richard A.

Send me an email to my profile address, I can fix you up with the DCDR motor driver really cheap if that's the issue.

Sounds like your burning up the DCDR, so the question is why.  I would look to see if any other wiring has damaged insulation in the engine, or a shorted or damaged motor drawing excess current.

The only connections to the DCDR is the 4 wire phasing harness and the 4 wire AC in and motor lead out harness.

Once that is fixed the engine should run with all functions by itself.  Then we can move to the tender sound issue. 

If this gets over your head I can work on it, I have a number of K-Line parts and have done several conversions of K-Line steam.

Also, did this version have cruise? Motor with Tach and a more complex motor driver?  G

That's a 2002 K-Line locomotive, pretty sure it has the basic TMCC package.  The locomotives with cruise usually have a CC suffix as well.

It did not come with cruise from the factory, but it was an option that you could buy and install later.  So there is no telling if his has it or not until you see photos of the locomotive guts.

Guys,

This loco doesn't appear to have that as far as some optic/tach/magnetic feedback to determine the speed to give the cruise effect. I do recall when it was fully working, the loco was like the run of the mill basic TMCC control locos, which I have several of and they operate like all the TMCC control prior to Legacy or Odyssey control system.

GGG,

It doesn't seem to draw usually excessive current as it would be seen with the lights on the loco dimming when demanding and I don't see that but then I will check that. 

I will post pictures to show the inside.

Can you please explain to me what I can do to test and determine the motor control is shot? Are we just going to turn it on and see or take Ohmic measurements?

Thank you for offering your services, I may have to take you up on it once I know what I am facing but for the most part I like to see what I can do.

Thank You Again,

Richard A.

We need to see picture to help.  The DCDR is pretty robust, so if you burned a component up twice something else must be wrong.  G

You've cooked the second R2LC?  If so, clearly there is something very wrong.  The only direct connection from the R2LC to the DCDR is common power and the PWM and 5V logic connection.  I can't imagine the common power being an issue, and it's hard to imagine the PWM or 5V logic power doing that kind of damage.  The 5V is just used to power the opto-isolators on the DCDR.

Hi John,

I sure hope I didn't fry the 2nd R2LC board but then again it wouldn't surprise me seeing that the same things are happening.

GGG,

Let me take some pictures and hopefully it will help to see the big picture. 

Thanks again,

Richard A.

Standing by.  Also please point out the new board you got from Brassuer.  I was assuming DCDR.  G

John and GGG,

Let me know if we can use these photos to talk through the steps to move forward. If not, let me know which additional photos i can retake.

Thanks,

Richard A.

Since you've replaced the R2LC, and done the reprogramming, I think we need a recap.

Exactly what are the current symptoms?  Are you getting any reaction in command mode?  What are the exact operational issues in command and conventional mode with the new R2LC after reprogramming it?

So a resistor burned up on the engine R2LC?  That is the board that plugs into the 24 pin connector on the engine.

The DCDR is the motor driver board, that is sitting between the 2 can motors on the engine.

I am with John need a recap, but here are a few things to do:

With you Command base disconnected so no TMCC signal present, reinstall the R2LC and place the switch in run position.  You can leave the shell off.   Can you run the engine in conventional with a transformer?  All lights lite, with smoke on will it smoke?

After that, test with command, but shell off.  You will need to set the ID and reprogram to 4 for steam.  Then see if the engine runs with TMCC.  You don't have an antenna hooked up doing it this way, but most engine can respond with shell off.   G

Good Morning Gents,

Here is a recap as to your request - but first;

1) After replacing the R2LC, the following occurred;

 When the power is first applied in TMCC the coal tender steam sound appears right away (Steam sound as in idle). No function what so ever from the CAB-1 to the Loco except for DIR button. Front head light and rear head light respond but still no whistle, no bell, no motion with the TMCC.

2) After replacing the R2LC and a new tether cable (Since the original had an open yellow wire), the same resulted with the above.

3) removed the TMCC wire from the transformer to switch to Conventional;

   The same resulted as far as; When first power is applied, the steam sound appears, DIR doesn't respond as far as the lights go, I am able to blast the whistle and the bell also works in conventional but still no motion in either TMCC or Conventional.

With the cab off, I was snooping around to see if there is a heat source such as excess current draw from what may have appeared to be a short (wire or components) and no where was i seeing or feeling anything. The DCDR was cool to the touch as it appears not much on the board to go bad as far as transistors and Opto-Iso IC's. (that is a quick ohm meter check to check for leaky or bad semi-conductors)

I didn't try the smoke being that the last time the loco was operating, my son noted that the smoking wasn't working so I didn't want to put effort and focus onto it.

One step I did attempt, I replaced the R2LC with the original board (Smoked Resistor) and attempted the same tests - Let's just say nothing worked as far as in conventional or TMCC. I had functions working with the new board by far more than with the new R2LC board. SO HOPEFULLY, that is a good sign and I can guess the board is still functional but then again, I am not 100% sure it was a fully functional working board. I was thinking perhaps to try it on another K-Line Loco to rule out the board is still an issue - What do you think?

Thank You,

Richard A.

Sounds like the tender is ok.  Works in conventional.

Sounds like an issue with power to the various boards in the engine.  Even with a partially bad R2LC or antenna issues the engine should move, smoke and work in conventional, and it is not.

So,  Check the plugs to the DCDR motor driver board.  Check the mother board for issues, unfortunately you can have a burned trace on the bottom of the motherboard.

Basically your into to a swap boards mode to determine what works and what doesn't.  Move the R2LC into another known good engine and test it.  IF all features work you know it is good.  Do the same with the DCDR, (you don't have to mount it to the other engine).  IF it works, your into your wiring and Mother board.  I am betting a possible mother board issue that go the first r2lc.

It is also beneficial to pull each connector and reseat, and with a pick, make sure each connector terminal is pushed in fully.  Those Lecco can let the pin push the terminal out of the connector.  Last is broken solder joints under the heat shrink / insulation especially motor, DCDR connectors.  G

Thank you G for responding.

I was wondering, the motherboard you are referring too is it in the coal tender? I do not see what i would intrepid as a motherboard in the loco except for what i see in the coal tender. 

I do want to make this one note, that prior to replacing the tether cable, the train was not moving such as now except when I did wiggle the tether cable (Prior to replacing) the loco would move and stop indicating a bad cable which I located to be a single wire at that. I was wondering, what is the relationship to the tender to the loco to allow for the movement as I am assuming the drive controls are within the tender and the loco is the just providing the power electronics, but then why is the R2LC board in the loco and not in the tender. (Maybe for another topic)

I will do that, of more of a wiggle test to see if I have any bad grounds, loose grounds, bad power source as far as broken connections.

I will do all that you mentioned and even more to the scale to say I did that too so I can reply back with "It's working". 

I will keep you all posted. I have another problem with an MTH train that will be on another forum list. Stay tuned! 

Thanks Again G.....

Richard A.

The motherboard that would affect motion is in the locomotive, it's the place where the R2LC is plugged in.

The engine mb is the board the R2LC plugs into.  I have not specifically worked on the K-Line Bigboy, but...  Does the engine have pickup rollers?  If so make sure they have good continuity.  Same with the ground wire from chassis.

How many pins/wires are going from the engine to the tender via the tether?  More than 4?

Typical wiring from the engine to the tender for TMCC/RS 4 type engines have a wire going over for Reverse light, Rear coupler, Serial data and common ground (chassis).  For K-line, sometimes they used an 8 pin and you might also have center rail power going over.

So this may be an issue of not getting good AC power into the mother board or the DCDR motor driver.  Otherwise engine should run on its own without sounds.  G