layout planning

It is never to early to start planning for the plan will never truly be finished.

There are decisions that need to be made in the beginning that will affect the direction that you go and the purchases that you make.

Post your desires here.  You'll get plenty of feedback for you to ponder over.  Most will be good; some will be great.

As it becomes clear what goals are the direction are, you will want to take advantage of sales and specials that occur throughout the year.

Jan

This is actually a hugely important and very interesting question--and yet we seldom hear it asked! Here we newbies are, standing all confused, looking at a basement half-full of junk and we know we want a layout. Where is the checklist? Where is the thing that says "Do this BEFORE you do that or here is what will happen..."? The answers are out there--buried in the **** X-files. But part of the answer is that the checklist is different for each of us.

Some of us start and we say "well, the whole basement has to be refinished--floor, ceiling, walls, lighting, power, HVAC and all." Only then can you start to think about the layout. Others of us HATE that kind of grass-roots approach so we say "what's the fastest approach to get me running trains. seeing smoke and hearing those wonderful modern sound systems?" So I think first on the check list is to decide which of these camps you are in--or somewhere in between.

The other question is whether or not PLANNING is fun for you. I LIKE planning. OTOH, some people think it's crazy to make detailed plans because YOU KNOW you will change your mind and the plan will become useless. So there's another camp--which one are you in? Do you like planning or not? How soon do you have to see track on the benchwork and trains running in order to keep motivated to continue and follow-through?

I am a newbie. My first (and at age 65 LAST) layout is abuilding in my basement. The benchwork is up--very unconventional--but functional,  and some track is laid. But I do not have a complete track plan. I don't have the experience to do a good plan. I bought RR track software and quickly realized that I did not want to spend my time in front of a screen doing layout design. So I went through every track planning book and O-gauge magazine I could get my hands on and began cutting and pasting plans together--sometimes actually on paper and sometimes in my head.

But FIRST and hopefully obvious is that you need to know how much space you will have and about what shape that a layout in that space will take. That is the ultimate line 1 on the checklist. How much space do I have? If I do an ISLAND style layout? Or a shelf along the wall layout? Or ???

So from one newbie to another, YES, start researching track plans. And while doing that, MAP your space and assess the space in the sense of what it will take to change it to support a layout. I am slow and the combination of those two tasks, plus emptying out the basement, took me a YEAR. 

In the background of all this, determine what you like about "modeled spaces". Do you want to turn the lights on and see long, sweeping curves? Or a yard full of trains? Or a multi-level city with tracks in and tracks out? This is important because at some point you have to answer the question that says "what do I want to model?" Structures and roads? Mountains and trees? Water and bridges? Or ???

So....

1. Map the space.

2. Assess the space for layout useability--what needs work?

3. Research track plans and get a feel for type of plan versus the space you have.

4. Assess your modeling preferences--what do I want to model?

After a year of these 4 steps, you'll have already started to build a much longer, much more detailed list of your own! And hopefully it will still be FUN!

All the best!

Don Merz

The layout planners/builders/operators on this forum are like consultants to you as you "walk the walk" toward your own basement layout. Like many others, I started in mid-2016 with available space in an L-shaped room that was formerly a storage room and workshop.  I wanted to build a layout in a 1950s "unadorned" style. When as a boy my dad built a 4x40-feet American Flyer layout in the basement and then let me believe I did it.  Bless him.  It had a relatively simple track plan resting on an unpainted plywood base supported by 2x4 legs. With two levels, it was my empire and also a social hub for my friends in the neighborhood. 

I created a track plan with ANYRAIL software, which was sufficient for my project although not as sophisticated as RR TRACK.  I revised and re-revised the track plan MANY times, which I considered part of the fun -- like playing "what if..." mental games. I wanted a relatively simple track plan so that my two great-grandsons could run the trains without confusion.  I designed two levels: #1 followed the L shape of the room with two connected ovals and interior yard tracks. #2 was elevated for a Christmas scene with three short bump-and-go trolley lines and DEPT 56 lighted porcelain buildings of the NORTH POLE VILLAGE series - 35 buildings total.

I used four hollow-core doors as the layout platform (lightweight, but strong enough) supported by hefty plastic sawhorses with adjustable legs (necessary because the L-shaped room had two different floor levels - about a 12-inch difference). I covered the platforms with green patio carpeting as a base for the many buildings and operating accessories. I confess I'm not a plaster-slinging scenery artist, but I admire those who have that gene in their DNA.

I already had the components of Lionel's TMCC system, so I installed Command Control of locos equipped with that nifty feature. I have one loco with the MTH DCS system, so I installed that system too with a selector switch that applies the right technology to the rails depending on the loco in use.

The final version of the track plan is attached for reference. As a "postscript," I added a short siding for the DINOSAUR TRAIN and provided a DINOSAUR PARK nearby - fun for my great-grandsons Matthew (now 5) and Hudson (now 4).

I declared the layout "finished" in May 2018 - about a 1-1/2 year adventure. Some photos are also attached. Someday you'll be sharing your story with others for their education and inspiration.  Carry on ...

Mike Mottler
mottlerm@gmail.com

wow that is a great layout 

I should tell you that this will be my 4th and final layout, I've done 2 HO layouts and the one I use now which is O but I have more or less designed the layout as I built and that does not work out very well although my last layout did have some planning to it. I have been using scarm now to design and I do enjoy planning and changing things around as I go but designing and building well thats a bit tricky. I have layed out the area that I can use about twice the size of what i have now 12'  X 38" with a small extension on the western end. I am cleaning out the basement and I know that the room will be open.  I would like to utilize most of the switches that I have now as they have been tweaked and operate perfectly. I would also like to use as many bridges that I have built. I have 18 ranging in size from 19" to 105".

  I like having long trains running but I would like to be able to do some switching or making up trains. My goal is to have 2 possibly 3 trains running unatended while still being able to switch cars or make up new trains at the same time, probably a bit optomistic.

  I've been working on a plan now for about a year and it seems to do what i'm looking for but I would like the more experienced designers to have a look and see if this might be doable or what changes I could make to have a better running layout. I am not to concerned with being proto typical and I do enjoy scratch building structures to fit.

   The lowest level of the plan will be 36" where a hidden yard will be, the first level will be 8" above that or 44" and the upper level will be 10" above that or 54".  The long bridge along the north wall is made up of two 105" bridges and three 19 1/2" bridgesm I made some modifications to the bridges so they will be one continuse bridge. included in the post is the scarm file and some drawings.

 Your thoughts and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Gary

Gary, Looks like you are well on the way with a plan!  I like it.

Congratulations on your winding down your working days.  After 42 years, I guess you could call me semi-retired, working 3 days a week.  I hope to be done in 3 years or less.  I do want to start building this winter however.

I started buying track for my layout plan that is described in my topic in my signature line.  If I have some pieces I don’t use, someone here on the Forum will buy them.

Gary,

Very nice layout! Great SCARM skills also. I assume that you created all of the bridges for SCARM.

I have started to review the track plan. I see no glaring issues.

I would have to say that I agree with Don Merz. This layout deserves to be in a train room. I would suggest that you consider at least painting the walls, cleaning the floors well and design the lighting and layout electrical provisions before starting any layout work. 

My impression of the theme for operation would be to have passenger service on the top layer and freight service on the middle layer. I would use the hidden storage for complete train storage.

One issue that did catch my eye was how SCARM handles the turntable when it is placed at an elevation. I will email Milen about that. Also, if you plan on running any scale steamers, a larger turntable would be needed.

Finally, for now, what are your design intentions with the layers? All visible, except the yard? I have a personal layout design problem with multi-layer layouts that hide the trains a lot. I like when they are lost in tunnel for a short time, but, I feel it detracts from the "show" when they are mostly hidden with only brief glimpses.

I'll go through the plan some more. Running the simulator will assist you a lot in deciding if the layout does what you want it to do for "play value".

The attached 3D views will give everyone a good perspective on how cool layout will be!

Thanks for the comments  I think you read my mind. The bridges were copied from other layouts I found on here and online and just tweaked them a little bit so they would match the bridges that I made. And I can honestly say my skills at creating scenery with scarm are very limited.

  As far as the area for the layout goes I am completely gutting the area and cleaning up the entire basement, I have two thoughts for the walls, first was to watch some more Bob Ross videos and paint but my wife enjoys making puzzles and we have almost every train theme puzzle ever made and covering the walls with those might be a consideration. The Back wall or south wall is already covered with display cases (those are the large brown squares in the plan) I have room for 2 more and have built them just have to put them up. 

  For electrical I already have two circuits dedicated to train lighting and two circuits for train power (the wiring will have to be run for them). As far as the lighting goes I am open to suggestions as to where and what type of lighting I should consider.

The top layer will be mostly for passenger service since I model New Haven RR passenger service was a big part of there business. I was thinking of having a hill or plateau on the south west corner to hide some of the upper line where it comes into the yard and possibly an interchange with NYC or PRR  and maybe another hill in the far northeast corner. Other than that the blue line would be mostly visible I want my bridges to be prominently displayed.

The problem with the first layer or green line is I cannot figure out how to expose anymore other than the switching area which is the north side of the layout and a small portion on the west side however it does allow me to do some switching and still have a train running on the line without worrying about a mishap. I would like to be able to see more of it but I really don't know how.

  The hidden yard again you read my mind would store made up trains now I'm not sure about how to bring them up, in the plan as is they would emerge through a building but maybe a tunnel would be something to consider? 

The Turn table is going to be scratch built,I have all the running gear designed and in the process of making up all the parts, it will be manually operated. I don't have any scale steamers mostly lionchief pacific,hudson,berkshire,and mikado and a williams J1 and lionel baby hudson I don't think I will be getting anything larger but I'm not sure how to fit a larger turntable on the layout.

and again

Thank you

Gary

Gary i will be very honest with you all of the input you have received in this posting have been fantastic and useableuseable, applicable, and Don Metz was great and reminds me of our due diligence outline from project plans from where I worked.

I might add a couple of ideas for your layout.  Wiring, as you plan use different color wire for specific layout components, such as track, turnouts, accessories...

When you estimate the amount of wiring to purchase, double the estimate.

Lighting under your table, requires sufficient, bright, and double the number of fixtures u first decide to install. Did I say bright light? LED has worked for me.

After I quit working full time, my eye sight changed so break down and purchase the correct eyewear and protection as soon as you begin crawling under your layout! The wiring will go much faster!

My train magazine i subscribed to before this one , Classic Toy Trains, they have a great section on their site for train layouts.  So since you have your size in mind, go there to look.  I will be much surprised if u do not find your favorite in CT T website!

Last, leave a space for your favorite Lazyboy! You will be moving the chair to your train room, I have!

John, all good points.  I like the suggestions to put lighting under the layout.  Things seem much brighter since my cataracts were removed last fall, but I know I am still in the dark a lot; literally and figuratively!

I do have room to fit a lazy boy in my new train room.  I mean the chair, I already have one of the other kind; me!

Double the wire too!  Yes!

I like the track plan, that offers a lot of operating possibilities. There is a lot of track on the layout to my eyes, but with clever use of scenery and buildings you can make it look pretty nice and draw the eye to them (for example, you could use a backdrop with flats in front of it behind the back of the layout (the top in the drawings) to give depth up there. My big recommendation is to figure out how you want the space, if you think you might want finished walls, some kind of hvac system (if it doesn't have one), flooring/carpeting, the time to do it is now before you even build one stick of the layout, it is a lot harder once the layout is underway. 

I started planning my layout at least a year before we started building the house. I only got half way through the process. I had the lower deck and hidden yard committed to paper, but the upper deck was far from drawn out. 

I always like to start with the shape of the benchwork, making sure you have enough aisle space, and enough room for your curves. Then I go back and start filling in the details. The lower deck had no changes that required removing track. There ware a couple places where I added track, but it was built pretty much as it was drawn.

The upper deck was the complete opposite. The benchwork was built with reach in mind, but no drawn track plan. There was just a vague idea of what I wanted to include. Once the benchwork was up, I drew right on the deck, totally on the fly. I've tried to go back and put it on paper, but the project keeps getting shoved to the back burner.

It helps that I'm modeling the prototype. It takes a lot of the guess work out of the process. I can just look at Google Earth, then whittle the track down to its essence. It's called selective compression, because modelers can never totally duplicate the real world.

My layout is huge, but I've taken a 60 mile section of the real world, and cut it down to 6 scale miles.

Here are some operational and visual improvement suggestions.  Why not merge the two operational levels into one with a triple track mainline.  To do this without losing yard space on your current upper level, you could widen your yard toward the inside of the layout, and you could turn your dog-bone loops into reversing loops with some judicious switch placement.  Once your mainline is outside your major yard, the inside most track could descend (in both directions) into your valley on the north side to serve those businesses and still remain a full loop.  Of course, this would require a wider bridge over your access to the center of the layout.

Alternatively, why not permit access to your business switching area via a branch line (separate from your triple track raceway) that runs out of your yard.  That branch line continues to your hidden staging (now more visible because there is only one layer above it) where you can interchange freight with other roads (PRR or NYC).  Heck, you can even store some "foreign road" passenger trains there which are given trackage rights (in your world) to your passenger station.

Finally, you only have a yard lead on one side of your major yard, and it is pretty short and doesn't connect to all yard tracks.  Putting a longer yard lead on the east side of your yard will improve its operating activity.

Chuck

John d : Very good suggestions I almost forgot about when I wired my last layout , I had to keep running to lowes for wire and also the lighting. I will have to put that on the plan as well. There are a lot of inexpensive led fixtures that would make life easier when working under the layout. The area in the southeast corner of the basement is slated to be for my work bench and refreshment area. A lazy boy will fit quite nicely next to a small fridge.

bigkid : I did not even think about using flats to cover the track leading from one level to the other under the bridge, the bridge all together is almost 22 feet long that would make for an interesting city scene. The duct work for the HVAC is already in place and runs pretty much down the center and up out of the way. Once I finish cleanning the basement out I will probably finish the walls, and as far as the floor or ceiling go if I finish a wall and floor or wall and ceiling it will be considered a finished basement and double the square footage of my house as well as my property taxes which here in Ct. are already high.

Big_Boy_: I love your layout I wish I had a bigger house.

PRR1950: I am having a little trouble visualizing what you're saying although it sounds very interesting. and I like the idea of using the lower level as possibly an interchange. All the bridges, except for the ones marked single track will accommodate 3 tracks provided I don't try to use switches in pairs then they will only accommodate 2 tracks. I have tried to incorporate a longer yard lead in the main yard but can't seem to figure that out.

moonman had read my mind as far as what I had originaly thought about when coming up with the plan, passenger trains mainly on the top level and freight on the first level although I would like to try and squeeze a few more sidings in while still taking reach into consideration. I can comfortably reach out to about 44 inches now, I use to reach a full 4 ft but since I turned 63 I shrunk from 6'2" to 6' I had trouble figuring that one out till I remembered my waist went from 34 to 36 and I don't think thats gonna shrink any time soon.

I would like to thank all of you for the very excellent suggestions. they give me a lot to think about and to write down for when the construction actually begins. One big reason for trying to get a plan pretty much finished is so I can buy, if not all than most of the trackage before I retire. Again thank you all for the much needed help.

Gary

Gary, Yes I learned I lost an inch in height over time.  I’ll be 62 in a couple months.  I took off 40 pounds 7 years ago, and I have been able to keep it off, though it is much harder now that some of my previous  exercise aggravates my arthritis.

 I too wanted to buy my high dollar items before I retire, and O Gauge track for a whole layout is one.  I hadn’t really counted on this “semi-retired” state I have been in for the last 12 months.  However, I have yet to find anyone willing to pay me more for working 5 days than I get here working 3 days and no benefits.  Our daughters and their husbands all complain no one wants to hire young people at a decent wage.  I have found no one wants to hire an old telecom guy with 42 years experience.  Oh well, I do want to follow your planning and build as I see we have some things in common.

Hi Gary,

Well, your HO background has confounded me somewhat, but, I think I have some helpful ideas. I deconstructed your layout and then put it back together with a different logic.

I placed each level into it's own LAYER ( a figure in SCARM) and set the layer object and track and the heights that you defined. I, then made all of the track the default color and put in bridge mode and removed all track supports. Select a layer(displays blue) and uncheck others for a clear working panel. Create a new panel for other items like bridges, buildings, scenic object as needed. You can copy and paste from other files.

The benefit of this is that one can now work on an entire layer without clutter or confusion from other layers. The color coding should be saved in a separate track file named for the reason of the color coding convention. One is able to move bulk areas or the entire layer of track improve fitment and such.

The 3D view that I wanted to achieve is like looking at HO shelf/multilayer layouts or a layout before any scenic covering is applied.

I feel that this provides a clearer view of what is going on.

So, I am now trying to catch up with how you wanted this operate.

I left the bridges out and the interlevel connections.

I added a Gargraves 12.4" section (indicated in RED) to each side of the 54" layer to push the back run closer to the wall at the North.

If this is where the bridges would be, it helped that also. I narrowed the "table" to expose more of the 44" layer below.

I see the 54" and the Hidden Yard as being ok now. So, work remains to refine the green line 44" layer and then join the layers.

I am thinking that moving the center of green line forward 12" , by eliminating a set of the pairs of spurs and cutting out 12" straights on the sides, would provide a lot of layout that would keep the trains in view. They would only disappear on the ends. This would also require adjusting which track the Hidden Yard would connect with.

A 3D and the layout file is attached. Rotate around in 3D view and check it out.

Footnote: There is a software anomaly with the Gargraves,  Ross and MillHouse River TT's in O gauge that keep a cylinder above and below it. I substituted an Atlas TT as placeholder. Milen will correct the issue in the next SCARM update.

"Once I finish cleanning the basement out I will probably finish the walls, and as far as the floor or ceiling go if I finish a wall and floor or wall and ceiling it will be considered a finished basement and double the square footage of my house as well as my property taxes which here in Ct. are already high."

We have the same issues here in Ohio.  I got around it by spray painting the ceiling, ductwork, etc. black and only installing wallboard on the walls from the ceiling down to where the top of my layout scenery would go.  I used track lighting (also painted black).  The concrete floor was sealed with a commercial grade stain so that it wouldn't shed dust. 

After the benchwork was up and I was finished making sawdust and a general mess, I had a local store come out and carpet the layout aisles, using nice thick padding and wall-to-wall tack strips glued to the concrete floor. 

The result is a layout room that looks finished, yet with carpet only in the aisles and bare (stained) concrete elsewhere the floor is not finished, the ceiling is only painted and not finished and the wallboard is incomplete thus the walls are not finished either.

Oh well, I do want to follow your planning and build as I see we have some things in common.

Yes  Mark I  do believe we have some things in common and this time I am going to try and document the entire build.

The result is a layout room that looks finished, yet with carpet only in the aisles and bare (stained) concrete elsewhere the floor is not finished, the ceiling is only painted and not finished and the wallboard is incomplete thus the walls are not finished either.

Bob

That is a very good Idea I am going to check with our building codes to see if that will work in my area, If my walls and layout come out half as good as yours looks It will be great and I will be very happy.

Carl

First it looks like you have done a lot of work on this design and I really do appreciate what your doing  and I would like to Thank you.

When I first looked it over it looked great, I went ahead and deleted one set of sidings on the green line. Then I noticed something did not look right. I added the basement layout ( furnace, lolly columns, walls etc.) and after positioning them I saw the problems,

 The lolly columns are right thru the upper  and  hidden yards and the benchwork will be right up against the chimney, I can go right up to the columns but not the chimney. Also the bench work on the north side will be about 55 inches and the switches on the top level and the lower level will be a bit out of reach although after deleting  one set of sidings and trimming the benchwork the reach is not too uncomfortable.  The added 12 inches on the south west side I can live with but no more because that is my access to the oil tank, water tank, and hot water tank as well as access to the freezer.  On the east side I have to keep the doorway open. I have a combination wood/oil furnace so I need to bring in wood although I will not be burning as much in my older years. cutting,splitting and stacking wood is not as easy as it use to be for me and if I have to buy it cut and split I might as well just buy oil and the only work will be turning the dial on the thremistat.

I took a snapshot to show what I am talking about. The basement layout is in layer 6 in the scarm file 

again Thank you

Gary

Gary,

Thanks for the help moving the room objects back into the plan. It doesn't look like a major issue to bring things back into clearance. I'll split the 54' inch table into two objects to give the bridges a true look.

I'll work on it during the week. I understand the givens.

My goal was to provide you with a working track plan that was easier to manipulate. Sometimes in SCARM and RR-Track, multi-level layouts are not clear to visualize in 3D because of the default terrain features.

There's still a lot of track in the green layer and not much space for buildings.

Can you confirm that location of the columns and the stairs and such are correct? (room and room objects locations)

For instance, I traced the table from your plan to get the shape of the 54" layer and placed that starting at X=0, Y=0(negative quadrant) I didn't increase the size from you drawing. So, I am not sure how it is hanging out in the doorway now.

Carl

Again thank you so much for your help. I think because I had cut the corner out by the door is the reason it looks like it is in the way, and yes the plan is much easier to work with. I have spent some time taking measurements and I have layed out the basement of those things that cannot be moved I am adding the scram file with just the basement and the original bench work.

 Again thank you I will owe you big time.

thanks

Gary

old_toymaker posted:

Carl

Again thank you so much for your help. I think because I had cut the corner out by the door is the reason it looks like it is in the way, and yes the plan is much easier to work with. I have spent some time taking measurements and I have layed out the basement of those things that cannot be moved I am adding the scram file with just the basement and the original bench work.

 Again thank you I will owe you big time.

thanks

Gary

Gary,

No "owes" necessary - I like to do this - Ok, thanks for that basement detail - I'll merge the two plans and see what we have - those columns always get in the way

Gary, Carl has done for you what DoubleDAZ Dave did for me with some input from Carl.  Both of them love working on layout plans, and are so slick at it, that it only takes minutes for small changes and not very long for larger changes.  They are just one niche group in the OGR Forum membership, out of many folks with their own areas of expertise.  

I just went to my link to my layout planning topic and looking at page 1 of 19, I am totally amazed at the progress we made there.  

Gary,

So, we begin again. I removed the 12" from the 54" inch layer and reshaped the table to clear the columns. Is the SW corner out in front of the opening past the wall a problem?

There is no problem with that as long as I can have about 4 feet between the layout edge and the south wall of the basement. the way it is now should be fine.

old_toymaker posted:

There is no problem with that as long as I can have about 4 feet between the layout edge and the south wall of the basement. the way it is now should be fine.

 

Ok, thanks, we shall continue...

I forgot to mention that I still pushed the 54" line closer to the N wall. Room for the bridge, but the green level will more visible. After we get green where it's ok, I adjust the objects for 3D.

Moonman posted:

old_toymaker posted:

There is no problem with that as long as I can have about 4 feet between the layout edge and the south wall of the basement. the way it is now should be fine.

 

Ok, thanks, we shall continue...

I would let the deck hang over the framing and round it off with a jigsaw on the end to provide more clearance.

I forgot to mention that I still pushed the 54" line closer to the N wall. Room for the bridge, but the green level will more visible. After we get green where it's ok, I adjust the objects for 3D.

That sounds like a plan thank you, I will mention ,although not a big deal, the hidden yard was 36" from the floor. That way with nothing else between the 54 inch layer and the yard, after figuring for the frame work, I should end up with at least 12 inches between bottom of 54 inch layer and top of track of the hidden yard, I figure that should be ample room to work if a problem should arise and the space below will be tight but accessible  and its only a small portion of the layout.

 The other area I was thinking about was the connection between the 54 inch layer and the 44 inch layer but I'm sure you will have something in mind.

again thanks

Gary