Kris, I think you left out a link to your layout.

Anyway, those who don't know, Kris is building a layout using 2" rigid foam for both the decking and framing. The original idea was to lay it against the wall of the garage when not in use and lay it on the floor when he wanted to run trains. He recently increased its size and is now thinking of using a lift system to raise/lower it above the car. He knows he'll need to add some better support using wood rails or something like angle iron. I told him about a pulley system I used back in the 70's to hoist an 8x8 HO layout in my garage. I used a system of single and double pulleys to go from 4 points above the layout to a single point on the side similar to this:

but not this:

We've been brainstorming different ideas for the support frame and connection points to distribute the weight evenly and keep the foam from sagging in the middle. Given how close his tracks will be, the connection points need to either by toward the center like the yellow circles or on the sides. The advantage to the center points is that the wires would be out of the way. The problem is this setup might not distribute the weight evenly enough or keep the layout level when trains are running. It wasn't a problem with HO scale trains because they aren't heavy like O scale trains and my connection points were wider apart. 

I've used 2 to 1 pulley systems for hanging bikes and canoes.  Works well.  4 to 1 is basically two 2 to 1 systems and tying a knot in the two ropes that come down the wall if I understand it correctly.  If sagging is an issue, you can do an 8 to 1 just as easily. 

I would think a wood frame of any sort is going to have a poor strength to weight ratio.   You might look at square aluminum tube.  It is about $16 for a 1" 8ft run at big box stores.

Dust will probably be an issue in a garage.  If you can mount a sheet or tarp or something above the layout when you are setting up your pulley system - and ride the layout up into the cover that should help a good deal. 

Andy, the cover idea is a good one. I suggested angle iron instead of wood for the frame because it could assembled with a few nuts & bolts. I just used a simple 6x6 frame of 2x4s nailed together to indent the connection points 1' from all sides. It was only up for about a year though before we moved.

Here is something that didn't work too well. I added some pulleys to a fold up ladder going to the attic from our old garage. I used rope. Either the rope or the pulleys were not the right type because the rope kept getting caught in the pulleys. The ladder folded up and it seemed to work going up, but always hung up on the way down. Probably my design was at fault? I finally got tired of all that and just left the ladder in the down position as it was before the pulleys.

You have a different setup though and it will probably be just fine. It seems like I have seen some videos on others doing what you want to, but I don't recall where? Maybe on youtube?

Just another thought, one of these might come in handy?  Poor Man's System  Deluxe System

I'll preface this post with - I haven't built a pulley system before

Many examples that I've seen online lack a counterweight system to move the net gravity forces to near 0. It might not be a big deal when your lifting a bicycle to the ceiling, but could make a big difference when lifting a 200+Lb layout to the ceiling. 

I've contemplated a pulley system for my layout, but couldn't get past the idea of that much weight above my kids' heads in the chance that something would fail and send the whole thing crashing down.

I'm interested to see the solution that comes out of this thread.

JD

You have a lot more weight above the kids than a layout if you look up.  We usually do not worry about the ceiling falling though.  Build it right and it wont come down.  I question however how the garage doors will be able to open with the pulley system, unless you are going to make it small enough to go at the far end of the garage. I would get a small electric winch to do the cranking. 

Hi

All good points and thank Dave, here is the link for everyone.

https://ogrforum.com/t...07#71397233940716707

The garage is 20 feet by 24 feet Post construction and it is a two car garage. The rafters are 10"x2"x 24 feet long every 36 inches. I am planning on building storage on top of the rafters. From the top of the peak of the roof to the top of the rafter is over 5 feet. I plan on place additional rafter 16 inches on center with a 3/4 inches sub floor plywood.  From the unfinished floor to the bottom of the rafter is 10 feet. The floor now is small blue stone, I am planning on pouring a cement floor this year. The layout pulley system with be in the nose of the garage and the garage door operation does not get in the way.

Check this out -motioned in older posts also

Racor PHL-1R pro

There are others with winch motors. A safety feature could be to install it so the bottom is even with the joists to allow a locking pin of some type.

Carl, if I were going to do another floating layout today, that (or one like it) is what I'd use. I don't know how much 2" foam with the track and rolling stock weighs, but I'm sure it's well within the limits of these systems.

Hi

The original plan was to use a pulley system like they have on sailing ships. However, I do not know the math and experience on how to build the system.  I did search the web and YouTube and I found the Garage Gator 220 lb Motorized Storage System. It is close to the ceiling so I do not bang head against the layout. The hook system for the bicycles I believe with work for me as it is close to the ceiling. The large basket will not work because of the cable extension and the layout is larger than the basket.

Dear RTR12

I did check out Harbor Freight wrench motor but the Garage Gator cost me about $20.00 more but I get the complete system pulley system, delivered to my house.

Dear Carl

I also looked at your system that you suggested it too hangs to far down for me and the layout is larger than the basket. I do not know the Center of Gravity is for this layout. If I over cable it from various points on the layout I think it will stay up and not slide out from the basket.

My next question is how do you wire a MTH TIU which is stationary on the wall to a movable layout with star wiring? Any suggestions?

Kris,

I don't get the "it hangs down too far for me". 

The cables can go up as high as the end loop to the pulleys or the height  of the highest building on the layout. You use a block as a safety stop to prevent crushing anything on the layout. No need to use the platform.

One drills holes through the framing and installs eyebolts on to the layout. An "S " attaches the cable to the eyebolt. for raising/lowering.

Here is a photo of forum member Pelago's old layout in his garage. He was a sailor as a hobby and used line and pulleys. You can see the attaching method. This hung over his wife's Corvette in the garage. Almost as important as children.  Never an incident, but could only run trains when it wasn't raining.

So, if you center the lift points of the lift cable pulleys on the layout it will hang level.

Land it on some premade saw horses and disconnect the cables for run time.

nvocc5 posted:

Hi

All good points and thank Dave, here is the link for everyone.

https://ogrforum.com/t...07#71397233940716707

The garage is 20 feet by 24 feet Post construction and it is a two car garage. The rafters are 10"x2"x 24 feet long every 36 inches. I am planning on building storage on top of the rafters. From the top of the peak of the roof to the top of the rafter is over 5 feet. I plan on place additional rafter 16 inches on center with a 3/4 inches sub floor plywood.  From the unfinished floor to the bottom of the rafter is 10 feet. The floor now is small blue stone, I am planning on pouring a cement floor this year. The layout pulley system with be in the nose of the garage and the garage door operation does not get in the way.

 

Kris,

I want to express some cautionary concerns about your plans for above the ceiling/attic storage. I would strongly suggest that you contact the building manufacturer about loading the joists and the walls.

A 2" x 10" for a 24' span appears to be designed to hold up the walls only and the deflection forces of the roof. Typically, floor loads, are on 16" centers when using 2" x 10" and 2" x 12" for longer spans like 24'.

I don't believe you would have a problem mounting the ceiling lift and holding a layout up.

Consult the building engineers or an engineer about what would be needed to create attic support without risking the structural integrity of the building.

24' span of  2" x 10"  joists even at 16" is 11% to 15% undersize.  If you are going to add a deck and what ever storage I would suggest to set an entire grid of 2" X 12" joists  then remove the existing joists and donate them to Habitate for humanity or some other charity.  Double joists on each side of the pull down stairs.

Hopefully your roof rafters are on 24" centers so you can lay in a decent nose.

For decking I would recommend 23/32"  (3/4") Ameritech (HD name) aka Advantech sub flooring.  Available at many lowe's and 84 lumber.  Depending on your attic ceiling height you may wish to raise all the decking early before you finish the joists.

Kris,

As far as I can tell, the Garage Gator is a single rail system and will not work. If you look at the photo I pulled from their site, you'd have to connect a wire from one side to the other and pull up from the middle. Unlike the Racor system, this would not allow the layout to be raised close to the ceiling for it to be out of your way. You need a system with 4 individual connection points as shown in Carl's photo and my example.

And I suggested you set the layout on a folding table of some sort and the sawhorses Carl mentioned would work too and be cheaper. That way you wouldn't have to worry about balance while running. My suggestion to put the connection points in the middle was threefold;

1) once you added the O63 curves to the plan, you increased the length past 96" and I'm concerned that if you put them on the 4 corners, the layout will sag in the middle unless you add a sufficient support grid underneath, this begins to defeat the purpose of using the 2" foam. This layout started out as a 60"x96" lightweight foam design that you'd be able to lift up against the garage wall for storage when not in use and lay on the floor while running trains. Now it's blossomed into something larger that you want to hoist to the ceiling and operate as it "floats" when lowered. So my concern becomes the strength of the 2" foam and the weight of the support grid you're now going to need to keep it from sagging.

2) with the tracks encroaching on the sides of the layout, there is not enough room to put the eyebolts on the sides and not have them interfere with train operation unless you widen the layout. That's why my example has them in the center out of the way. If you want to store trains on the layout when lifted, they might have to be stopped in the center for balance. I get that you're concerned about the weight of all the switches being on one side and what happens when 1 or more engines are on that side at the same time. That's a valid concern unless you use the table/sawhorses to fully support the layout when lowered. Once you added the need for a support grid, using foam becomes less of an advantage and I'm no longer sure it's significantly lighter than 1/2" plywood decking would be.

3) you keep adding more weight and I'm concerned that you're overloading the rafters with the layout and storage you want to add above. Like Carl mentioned, rafters are sized for their intended purpose. You can't just add crossmembers and plywood flooring to create a storage space without checking to see if the rafters will be able to support the weight. We don't know exactly what you're doing and how much weight you're adding, it's all something that needs to be considered. My layout was in a single-car unfinished garage, so the 4 connection points were off to the sides and not in the center and I didn't add anything above.

My thoughts on a hanging layout (or kayaks or bicycles) ...

The pulleys and line of the shelf in hardware stores are disappointing.  The pulleys add friction that makes raising harder and the braided line stretched.  Plus the slop in the pulley construction promoted jamming.  I was racing a sailboat the last time I built a hoist for a tandem bicycle so I replaced the hardware with Harken bullet blocks and non-stretch halyard line as the sailboat rigging was renewed.   The performance of the lift improved somewhat.  Also consider a "Spanish pulley" instead of multi-sheave blocks to increase mechanical advantage. 

Keep the layout light.  Use aluminum angle or tube to strengthen the layout.  I use OnlineMetals.com which will ship up to 96" lengths.  (shipping costs will increase the total purchase cost to about the same as big box stores but you can order the shapes you need vs. what the big box stocks).

+1 on the advice to consult a builder on adding joists if you want a storage deck.

I wasn't aware of the Garage Gator and I will defer to the others with more experience on the hanging layout for that one. I was just thinking some type of winch would be nice to have for raising and lowering.

I do agree with all the others having concerns about the weight and the joist sizes and spacing. This is something you definitely want to get right so there is no chance of injury to anyone. Make sure it is very sturdy!

Dear Gentlemen

Thanks you for the replies and all of your points have valid merit and concerns. I will have to study them one at a time I will reply shortly. The little one had his friends over, baseball and garage door windows where a very hot topic at the dinner table last night. Let think everything over that was stated and fix the garage door windows.

nvocc5 posted:

Dear Gentlemen

Thanks you for the replies and all of your points have valid merit and concerns. I will have to study them one at a time I will reply shortly. The little one had his friends over, baseball and garage door windows where a very hot topic at the dinner table last night. Let think everything over that was stated and fix the garage door windows.

 

I have to smile, boys. I hope you weren't too harsh with little man. When that stuff happens, think about when you were a boy.

Anyway, You can see there are few ways find a storage solution for the layout as well as your stuff. You may want to check the snow load rating for the building. The pole buildings avoid the permitting process. That puts the responsibility for details on the you. Not much you can do about it, but it's good to know. Twisting a Dirty Harry line: "A man's got to know his buildings'  limitations"

Sorry about the windows Kris. We had a lumber yard at the end of our street when I was a kid. It had a big field out back and they allowed us to play baseball there, so none of us ever broke a window.

As for the load factors, we might be overstating potential problems, but better to err on the side of caution. We have no idea what your layout and whatever you are going to store is ultimately going to weigh or how the weight is going to be distributed, it's just something that should be checked before you lock into a plan. I don't think the layout, even with the support grid, track and equipment, is going to weigh too much spread over 4 connection points, but I'm not an engineer and I'm more concerned about the added weight of the flooring and items you plan to store.

Thinking back, I now believe I only raised/lower a single sheet of 3/4" plywood with HO track and equipment on it. My neighbor got a pallet of plywood free, so we built 2 playhouses for our daughters and I used 2 sheets for my layout, but initially I only raised/lowered a single sheet. I didn't add a floor above it for storage and it was an unfinished single-car garage, so the rafters weren't that long and I really didn't think too much about the weight.

Yes, go easy on the little one. He may grow up to be the next Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, etc. and he needs to practice!

When I was in 2nd grade we were playing baseball in the back yard of the kid across the street. I was at bat, hit the ball really well (probably my best hit to date back then). It went over the fence which was on top of a 10' stone wall and landed right on the windshield of the car that was parked there. Needless to say it broke the windshield. My Dad had to pay for the windshield. I was expecting a severe beating, but he really didn't get on me too hard. Just told me to be more careful and not to do that again. The school was only a block away, big playground, we always played there from then on. Away from any windows too. 

I have had a 6' X 12' hanging layout in the garage.  I park my Mustang underneath.   It uses the pulley and winch system from a storage system that supports 250 lbs.   Racor Heavy-Lift system.   I modified the dimensions to span the 12' length.   It uses a manual winch with a lock.    The framework is plywood, and the layout surface is 2'X4' ceiling tiles for light weight.   It has worked fine for 5 years now, but I am running an indoor layout of 4' X 12' now, so has been unused for the last few months.  

No problem with the total weight so far, but there is a small amount of sag lengthwise, about 1/4".   The trains do not seem to mind.   It is mostly Fastrack with a mountain branch line using Atlas-O.   Its not complete, just got the trains running but have not scenic-ed.  

Anyway, the concept works, and the pulley system and winch work fine for me.

Dear Gentlemen

Sorry for the delay but I came down with flu.

"I want to express some cautionary concerns about your plans for above the ceiling/attic storage. I would strongly suggest that you contact the building manufacturer about loading the joists and the walls."

I am finding out who the manufacture was and getting their spec on this garage and seeing what they have to say about my mod. It is a good point and a safety issue as well. Note I am not placing any machinery or heavy items in the attic, only holiday and little stuff.

An "S " attaches the cable to the eyebolt. for raising/lowering. Land it on some premade saw horses and disconnect the cables for run time.

I like all three points and I will incorporate them into my design, once I get the load and bearing factors out of the way.

Sorry about the windows
Window are fixed,  a future baseball star maybe and maybe not, let us see what the future holds. We had the baseball window talk, it was hard keep a straight face, he looked so worried and I just talked to him and explained that I am glad that no one got hurt.

Dear rtr12 finally a picture of what you look like.

Racor Heavy-Lift system

I will go with a truly tested system and that has a proven test record.  And the attachment point for the pulley system will be in the middle as Dave suggests.  Once I get the OK from the garage manufacture I will start the next phase of this project.

Like I said, we're probably overemphasizing the safety issue, but we can't see your garage, etc., so better safe than sorry. The builder may not give you explicit approval due to liability concerns, but they should be able to give you enough info to make your own decision. I've been up on my main attic where our air handler and heat pump are, so I know the rafter system is designed to hold that heavy equipment. The attic above the garage is separated by a firewall and I haven't been up there, though I assume it's the same design. I did have 4 bikes hanging, each one on a separate rafter. I recommend a commercial system because while my DIY system worked, I would have replaced it with something better had it been our house and had we not gotten reassigned to a base in Illinois.

Glad you weren't too hard on him. I think breaking a window is part of growing up. Hope you are feeling better.

Yes, I finally got an avatar, didn't want to scare anyone too badly and had to ease into it. Haven't quite got the sizing down yet, but working on it.

rtr12 posted:

Yes, I finally got an avatar, didn't want to scare anyone too badly and had to ease into it.

Welcome to 2017.

I have always been a day late and a dollar short...

I know the day late and a dollar short club. I keep trying to resign but they will not accept my letter of resignation.

I spoke to the builder and he suggested an I beam down the middle of the garage. This should take care the additional weight and any other issues.

 Dave I do not have any of those issues that you had in your garage. For those the one that are quietly following this thread and their  benefit I totally agree with you siding on caution.

nvocc5 posted:

I know the day late and a dollar short club. I keep trying to resign but they will not accept my letter of resignation.

I spoke to the builder and he suggested an I beam down the middle of the garage. This should take care the additional weight and any other issues.

 Dave I do not have any of those issues that you had in your garage. For those the one that are quietly following this thread and their  benefit I totally agree with you siding on caution.

You can put the pulley system for layout anywhere that you like. It's your plan to put weight/storage that deserves more consideration.

TomTee's answer is more professional than the builder's answer. WTF kind of answer is that? That would require additional framing in the end wall and the door opening. More work that Tom's answer.

Just put the storage on hold and build your layout and hang it from ceiling.

Kris, I hate to belabor this topic, but I read back through the thread and found where you said the "joists" are 24' long 2x10s every 36" over the 20' length of the garage and the peak of the roof is 5' from the top of the 2x10s. Is this a fair representation?

If it is, there should be about 7 joists down the 20' length and you want to lay some 3/4" plywood across some of those to store your holiday decorations and other small items that don't weight much.

The builder suggests adding a 20' long I-beam down the center below the 2x10 joists.

Tom Tee and Carl suggest that the 2x10s are undersized if you want to add the 3/4" plywood decking for storage.
-- Tom suggests replacing the 2x10 joists with 2x12s, no I-beam. He also suggests doubling the joints on each side if you add a fold-down ladder.
-- Carl suggests forgetting about the storage.

What I get from all this is that everyone seems to be okay with just hanging the layout from the 2x10s, it's your plan to add the plywood decking that is causing the concern. I defer to Tom and Carl regarding the strength of 2x10s over the 24' span. I don't know that the holiday decorations make that much difference, it's the weight of the decking itself that may overload the 2x10s.

I agree with Carl that Tom's solution is less work, assuming the door opening and end wall would need more support. There is a reason why a finished attic costs more and it's not just the decking and drywall, it's the larger joists, headers, etc., needed to support the weight of people and other things.

Now, if you're just going to lay a couple of sheets of plywood across some joists to hold a few items, I don't know if the level of concern would be the same. To my way of thinking, that would be no different than one of those garage storage racks that hang from the joists, though they probably weigh less than a sheet of plywood. People are assuming you're going to add a full 20'x24' deck complete with fold-down ladder for access.

I found several youtube vids that may give you some ideas.  Enter this phrase in the youtube search bar:

              train layout pulley

Dave

HI

Thank you all for the replies. This project has been push back until 2018 due to Funds Are Lows Disease. I spoke to another builder and he stated that I should have two LVL 2"x12"x24' down the middle of the garage and on the ends attached to 6"x6" pressure treated lumber in 12"x48" Sakrette tubes. For additional safety have a lollipop in the middle for support upper floor, also placed on top of a Sakrette tube. Frost line around here is 42".

Dave that is exactly what I have and I am not planning on adding a second floor just storage space.

Dear All

I know it has been a long time but this project is now scheduled April 2018. I have been busy with the house and that has taken up most of my time and funds. I will try to keep you updated with my progress.

Happy new year, Kris!

Good to hear that you are settling in and can see the train project again. Life has a way of getting in the way for all of us.

Late to the party but here's a Harken Hoister that will hold 200 lbs:

http://www.hoister.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=648

Dear All

Here is the latest news in regards to the Layout pulley storage system.  The plan has been revised and revised again,  here are the latest details:

This layout final dims are 6 feet wide by 10 feet long. This will be a Murphy bed style layout with a pull system. Lumber has been delivered and in storage in the garage and waiting for warm weather to start the layout base. The new layout base is larger than the original track design for future expansion.  I have some ideas for the future expansion but let us get the current design operation and then we we will look at the expansion.

One phase 4 gang electrical box is waiting for the warm weather to arrive in New England states to be installed, this is with it own circuit breaker.

The carpenter is on vacation from Feb to the end of March of this year for the project has been pushed a few weeks.  On top of that my oldest is getting married and that is pushing the project back even more but so be it, I waited forty years to build this so a few weeks will not be a big deal.

I would like to thank everyone for their help in building this layout, four houses later and 40 years later a dream is becoming a realty.  I would like to thank my wife for understand that this layout will be built this year and I am going to York in Oct of this year. So whatever she want done in the house speak now or wait until next year to get it done. Remember the golden rule if mama not happy nobody is happy, so whatever mama want mama gets within reason.

Congrats Kris! Sounds like it will be a really nice setup. Also, Congrats on the upcoming marriage of your oldest coming up.  

Similar to you, I was originally going to do a ceiling lift system for our garage layout, but decided against it for a variety of reasons.  I think if I were to do some sort of hideaway system, it would be a wall mount, Murphy bed, fold up style like you are suggesting.  I'm really interested to see your design and build.