Layout vs. Wood Stove

Not me, but my layout meanders throughout my basement including up to and near the water heater and oil fired burner and furnace. My trains and layout at certain points are just a few inches from the water heater, oil burner and furnace, which is a lot closer than the 6 to 7 feet between your trains/layout and stove.

I'm very careful dealing with flammable and toxic substances relating to building, repairing and maintaining my trains and layout. I recommend that you do the same in connection with your wood burning stove.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I'm very careful dealing with flammable and toxic substances relating to building, repairing and maintaining my trains and layout. I recommend that you do the same in connection with your wood burning stove.

All repairs and use of flammable substances are 180 degrees opposite the stove and other sources of heat.  Thanks and a good reminder. 

I guess maybe the wood would shift with the heat maybe? 6-7 feet is a good distance but I know those wood stoves can really put it out some heat. Is it a big stove?

Thanks for the update on your trainroom MARTY.  I too am in the Basement as you see every Wednesday, I have my layout near the water heater and gas furnace.  Although not as hot as a wood stove my layout is about three feet from those devices.  I have a friend that has a wood stove near his layout but it is on the far side of the basement. He never had any problems.  
  Good Luck with your plans, LUNA a will approve of them either way. She is a beautiful pup.  

@BillYo414 posted:

I guess maybe the wood would shift with the heat maybe? 6-7 feet is a good distance but I know those wood stoves can really put it out some heat. Is it a big stove?

I would say average.  Before the layout got built I used it a few times.  It does get warm in the basement.

Then I think @Arnold D. Cribari is right. Watch your fumes and enjoy!

Marty, Are you using the stove to heat basement only?

Lots of folks aren't going to like this information but I assure you it is based upon good science and research.  Personally I would never use a wood burning stove, fireplace or any other similar device.  Besides the risk of fire, the products of combustion (particularly microparticulates) are quite toxic to your lungs and heart.   Even at low levels these represent a health danger, not to mention polluting the air for the rest of the community. There's a reason London began prohibiting coal and wood fires in the mid-20th century.  Other than solar or wind, or electricity,  natural gas fired furnaces are the safest sources of power.   Just saying .

EDIT: I see you already posted a picture.

Marty, could you show a picture of the stove including the draft dampers and let us know size and design of the stove (ie. convection vs. internal forced air channels)?

The stove design, how you control the burn rate, as well as the types of wood you expect to burn in it (density and moisture content) are all directly related to how hot a stove will get.

I've heated with wood for much of my life, though not currently.  Another thing to consider, besides heat proximity with an indoor wood stove, is the fine ash that will quickly cover everything in the same and often some adjacent rooms.

I have a wood stove in a bedroom that I use as an office and workshop. In my experience the sides of the stove get warm, but the heat only radiates about 2 feet from the sides and about 3 to 4 feet from the front, so if you have your layout over 6 feet away you shouldn’t have to worry about heat damaging your layout or trains.

For efficiency, our house uses electric baseboard heating powered by solar, but it’s a dry heat. On really chilly evenings or early mornings, nothing beats the humid heat from a wood fire. Plus I like the atmosphere it creates when enjoying a smooth whiskey and listening to a little Coltrane on a snowy evening.

@Dave Nichols posted:

Marty, Are you using the stove to heat basement only?

Basically as much of the house as I can BUT since I don't have anyways to monitor it when I am not at home it will be more or less occasionally I suspect it would get much heat upstairs.  It is not intended to replace using the furnace.  More in the way of ambiance and a little heat. 

@Landsteiner posted:

Lots of folks aren't going to like this information but I assure you it is based upon good science and research.  Personally I would never use a wood burning stove, fireplace or any other similar device.  Besides the risk of fire, the products of combustion (particularly microparticulates) are quite toxic to your lungs and heart.   Even at low levels these represent a health danger, not to mention polluting the air for the rest of the community. There's a reason London began prohibiting coal and wood fires in the mid-20th century.  Other than solar or wind, or electricity,  natural gas fired furnaces are the safest sources of power.   Just saying .

While I respect your comment, I plan on moving forward with using the stove.

@SteveH posted:

EDIT: I see you already posted a picture.

Marty, could you show a picture of the stove including the draft dampers and let us know size and design of the stove (ie. convection vs. internal forced air channels)?

The stove design, how you control the burn rate, as well as the types of wood you expect to burn in it (density and moisture content) are all directly related to how hot a stove will get.

I've heated with wood for much of my life, though not currently.  Another thing to consider, besides heat proximity with an indoor wood stove, is the fine ash that will quickly cover everything in the same and often some adjacent rooms.

As stated above this would be occasionally, special occasions, company over, and when I feel like it.  So I suspect ash, although present, would be minimal.

@Keith Crook 020419 posted:

I have a wood stove in a bedroom that I use as an office and workshop. In my experience the sides of the stove get warm, but the heat only radiates about 2 feet from the sides and about 3 to 4 feet from the front, so if you have your layout over 6 feet away you shouldn’t have to worry about heat damaging your layout or trains.

For efficiency, our house uses electric baseboard heating powered by solar, but it’s a dry heat. On really chilly evenings or early mornings, nothing beats the humid heat from a wood fire. Plus I like the atmosphere it creates when enjoying a smooth whiskey and listening to a little Coltrane on a snowy evening.

Probably the primary use.  LOL!

I think you will be fine.Just keep an eye on the humidity. Keep plenty of water on the stove.

Mothball the wood stove until the upstairs bedroom becomes available again.

I believe you said about a year and a half?  That will pass quickly. 

The wood you may already have will continue to dry nicely over this time.

I use a large master like yours and have much preferred it over other options.

All the best

Dave

Marty, that stove looks pretty old. Another option might be to put in a newer, smaller stove that allows for tighter clearances to combustibles. We did this a few years ago and are very happy with the results. The stove is smaller, burns cleaner and more efficiently, and still puts out plenty of heat. Here in Maine, heating with wood is the norm, although heat pump dealers are opening everywhere. I had considered installing a small wood stove in my train room, but ended up going with a heat pump because it requires less babysitting, and it provides year-round climate control.

John

Just an opinion… unlike furnaces and hot water heaters, wood stoves are designed to direct heat into the room they are in. I installed a wood burning insert in the fireplace in my great room (layout is in the basement) and within 8 feet of the front of the unit, it can get quite hot once the unit gets going. While it might not be hot enough to melt plastic or set wood on fire, stoves tend to put out dry heat - it probably will dry out wood as well as any lubricant in your engines.

@Apples55 posted:

Just an opinion… unlike furnaces and hot water heaters, wood stoves are designed to direct heat into the room they are in. I installed a wood burning insert in the fireplace in my great room (layout is in the basement) and within 8 feet of the front of the unit, it can get quite hot once the unit gets going. While it might not be hot enough to melt plastic or set wood on fire, stoves tend to put out dry heat - it probably will dry out wood as well as any lubricant in your engines.

Which is why it will be used occasionally and with the trains parked at the furthest most distance from it.  I know they do tend to dry out the air but I don't think I will burn it enough to make that a factor.

With the even-higher price of oil this season I had considered putting a pellet stove in my basement.  If you look at the photo, the round plate to the left on the wall is covering the flue.  I would need to line the flue before putting a stove in. 

That corner is where my soon-to-start-construction-on layout will be.  I already realized that putting a stove there would severely limit the size of my layout.

@Landsteiner posted:

Lots of folks aren't going to like this information but I assure you it is based upon good science and research.  Personally I would never use a wood burning stove, fireplace or any other similar device.  Besides the risk of fire, the products of combustion (particularly microparticulates) are quite toxic to your lungs and heart.   Even at low levels these represent a health danger, not to mention polluting the air for the rest of the community. There's a reason London began prohibiting coal and wood fires in the mid-20th century.  Other than solar or wind, or electricity,  natural gas fired furnaces are the safest sources of power.   Just saying .

A woodstove, though, shouldn't be letting any combustion by-products into the living space, no?

In places where the use of wood-boiler are common, the particulate pollution is quite evident during temperature inversions.

I know that when I looked at pellet stoves that most recommended an external source of fresh air.  I was no looking forward to running a vent and cutting a hole in the side of house.  There are some that do not require the fresh air vent, but I question their reasoning.

Another thing.  I don't want to melt my trains!

@Frank Mulligan posted:

I know that when I looked at pellet stoves that most recommended an external source of fresh air.  I was no looking forward to running a vent and cutting a hole in the side of house.  There are some that do not require the fresh air vent, but I question their reasoning.

The fresh air vent in new fireplace construction in many areas requires a fresh air vent, and it is so the fireplace (or wood stove) is not using oxygen in the house for combustion. It is why fireplaces are so inefficient, a lot of the heat goes up the chimney because it is sucking room air into the fireplace for combustion.

@Frank Mulligan posted:

I know that when I looked at pellet stoves that most recommended an external source of fresh air.  I was no looking forward to running a vent and cutting a hole in the side of house.  There are some that do not require the fresh air vent, but I question their reasoning.

All forms of combustion-based heaters require a source of fresh air. Older homes are leaky enough where a vent isn't needed, but tightly-sealed, modern insulated homes typically require a vent.

My take, fwiw. Wood stoves do create particulate pollution, but they are generally sealed units with the door closed so that pollution goes out the flu if it is drafting right. Same with ash, I have a fireplace and I don't really get ash particulates coming into the living room, again if the fireplace is drafting right it shouldn't happen (it can happen when winds are gusting, but I have found with the chimney cap I have, that doesn't happen unless we are talking really strong winds, when I generally don't use it. An old, poorly sealed unit combined with poor draft could cause issues, but I also think you would be aware of that if you used it before.

Wood stoves obviously throw a lot of heat, that is how they work. Furnaces and hot water heaters, in contrast, are insulated not to throw heat, it is why you can have a layout close to the unit (current code is like a couple of inches, least with my current furnace). I would suggest using the stove, and have a thermometer on the layout, and also have a humidity gauge and see what the actual effect is on the layout. If you are seeing crazy low humidity, like you see in desert areas, you may want to either have pans of water or a humidifier running when you use it. One thing unless you have a huge basement, if you saw significant heat at 6 to 7 feel away, where it is like 80+ degrees, the basement would likely feel uncomfortable warm. As long as you aren't building huge blazes in the stove, and have moderate coals in there (which really generate the heat), you should be fine, but measure the effect and see, if for anything your piece of mind.

Heat does weird things.  I have a full brick fireplace in the living room that has gas logs.  I believe the chimney is properly built, i.e., it uses stone inside of the brick.  I have a framed picture hanging on the fireplace.  Beneath the picture is a fairly large wooden shelf, so no direct heat comes from the outside of the fire area upwards toward the picture.  Keep in mind this is Houston, so we only run the fireplace maybe 5 times a year.  We took the picture down a few years back for some reason.  We had some rubber stoppers mounted on the back of the frame to keep it stable.  They had melted!

@bigkid posted:

you may want to either have pans of water or a humidifier running when you use it. One thing unless you have a huge basement, if you saw significant heat at 6 to 7 feel away, where it is like 80+ degrees, the basement would likely feel uncomfortable warm. As long as you aren't building huge blazes in the stove, and have moderate coals in there (which really generate the heat), you should be fine, but measure the effect and see, if for anything your piece of mind.

It has a place for water and I definitely am not an indoor bonfire type.  I just want some heat and atmosphere.

Thanks for all the replies.  Maybe the desert area will be at that end of the layout! 

@MartyE posted:

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Not me, but my layout meanders throughout my basement including up to and near the water heater and oil fired burner and furnace. My trains and layout at certain points are just a few inches from the water heater, oil burner and furnace, which is a lot closer than the 6 to 7 feet between your trains/layout and stove.

I'm very careful dealing with flammable and toxic substances relating to building, repairing and maintaining my trains and layout. I recommend that you do the same in connection with your wood burning stove.

  I have a wood burner in the basement near the layout that I haven't used since I put the trains there but would really like to next season.  Does anyone else have one near their trains and other than proximity and heat damage any other pitfalls?  What is the minimum distance from the stove.  It looks like I'll be about 6'-7' away.  I feel this is good and will be staging all trains opposite the stove just to keep them from the heat but maybe running while it's in use.

All good advice.   

I have a nugget hard coal fired fireplace with a combined 1500 cfm fan system  that I continually run during the winter months.

While the layout is about 15 feet away from the fireplace Marty, I do have to agree with Arnold about the chemical use in the area.   I have used naptha and acetone on the layout along with various glues with no bad issues at a distance .

I will say that this area does have the benefit of very dry air with the use of the fireplace .    In the summer we run a dehumidifier at 40 percent.     We are fortunate that this house is very well insulated and has good weather proof windows and doors.

"I just want some heat"

I would suggest putting up a fire-safe thermal barrier on the side(s) which face the layout.  Thinking cement board or equal on wood studs, not necessary to go too tall or even to ceiling.  Check stove manufacture's recommendation for safe clearance to combustibles!  Then you can experiment with various small oscillating or tower fans to circulate the room air past the stove.  This will help keep the immediate area (layout) from getting too hot and also more evenly warm the basement.  A quiet fan should not diminish the "ambiance" too much!

Definitely support the idea of watching temp and humidity this season so next winter you know if you are drying out the basement and can add water for humidity control before cracks etc develop.

One last unsolicited recommendation: have your chimney cleaned annually, and burn dry wood. Wood stoves like to run hot, and it is a low-burning fire that can lead to creosote buildup, which can lead to chimney fires. We burn 2-3 cords of firewood every winter in our stove and have learned the hard way the importance of burning dry wood.

@Landsteiner posted:

Lots of folks aren't going to like this information but I assure you it is based upon good science and research.  Personally I would never use a wood burning stove, fireplace or any other similar device.  Besides the risk of fire, the products of combustion (particularly microparticulates) are quite toxic to your lungs and heart.   Even at low levels these represent a health danger, not to mention polluting the air for the rest of the community. There's a reason London began prohibiting coal and wood fires in the mid-20th century.  Other than solar or wind, or electricity,  natural gas fired furnaces are the safest sources of power.   Just saying .

Each system for heat , cooling and power come with risks .  Safety,  to some extent , all depends on who has the loudest social voice.

Coal and gas fired electrification plants have the obvious loud noise being made against them.      Even now there is the beginning of a push to ban gas stoves in kitchens.            Over time we have seen the use of hydroelectric plants cause loss in people as well as property and land .               Large municipalities want nuclear energy for electrification needs but neither want the nuclear power plants nor an extremely dangerous situation with nuclear waste being in proximity.             Windmill and solar  power will have a consequence we have yet to fully understand.

It's just that I'd like to run trains on the layout in a somewhat trouble free manner.    I'll try to use greases and oils that don't dry out and get hard so fast.   I'll have to keep my ABS bodied locomotives in the coolest place on the layout.  I'll have to try to use my chemicals and paints as safely as instructions call for.                            I guess I would MOSTLY like to be comfortable enough to enjoy the trains. 

@BlueComet400 posted:

One last unsolicited recommendation: have your chimney cleaned annually, and burn dry wood. Wood stoves like to run hot, and it is a low-burning fire that can lead to creosote buildup, which can lead to chimney fires. We burn 2-3 cords of firewood every winter in our stove and have learned the hard way the importance of burning dry wood.

Before the layout went up I had it checked and burned wood maybe 5 times.  Regardless before I do so again I will have it inspected.  Always a good idea.

I heat with a fireplace for the house, and a wood stove in the train room. The back of the wood stove is 3 feet from the layout. Very little heat comes from the back of the wood stove and the layout is cool to the touch. I burn 6 - 8 cords of wood in the winter. The fireplace and wood stove burn all day in the winter.

I heated with wood for ten years.  I don't think that the trains are any more risk than other household stuff, especially with the conditions you mentioned.

My unsolicited advice is that a simple $10 fan works great to move the heat off the stove to somewhere else.

The electrical cords on the floor in the previous post go to fans.

I have a Heatilator 2-sided gas fireplace that will run you out of the family room if you let it.  Right at the glass, it can reach 1,000F, but a box three-four feet in front of it doesn't get hot at all.  I can't imagine your spacing of 6-7 feet will be an issue.