Length of controlled blocks

One aspect of this is that they should be longer than the longest train that you expect to run.  It isn't just about length though, some times there are natural logical breaks like where a siding begins or end or where a curve ends.

Are you running conventional or command?

Each mainline loop should have at least four blocks if you want to keep two trains running smoothly on each loop.  If you only have three blocks, you will have a lot of stop and go action because only one block will be unoccupied and one train will have to move into the unoccupied block before the other train can move.

Detection (block occupancy) is easy with Gargraves, Atlas, and other track systems that don't have the two outside rails electrically connected.  If you have tubular track, it can be done but it would be very work intensive since you would have insulate one of the outside rails at each cross tie.  So then your three rails are neutral, hot (center), and detection/occupancy. Basically, the wheels of the train will short the neutral rail to the insulated (detection) rail and will activate any circuit (solenoid, relay, or signal) where the other side is connected to hot.  The easiest is probably to connect to a relay which in turn operates the signals.

@ogaugenut posted:

One aspect of this is that they should be longer than the longest train that you expect to run.  It isn't just about length though, some times there are natural logical breaks like where a siding begins or end or where a curve ends.

Are you running conventional or command?

Thanks for your reply!  I am running conventional, on Gargraves  Phantom track and switches.  I will have one long passing siding on the outside loop.  The inside and outside loops are connected with crossover turnouts.  Generally, I will be running 2 passenger trains, with either steam or double A-A units.  I can limit the length of any freight trains to suit the block lengths.  I will have to consider the length of the passing siding for one block on the outside loop.  Also, there is really only one straight away of any distance.  The rest is combination of curves and one 45 degree angle short distance straight away through a station.

@PGentieu posted:

Each mainline loop should have at least four blocks if you want to keep two trains running smoothly on each loop.  If you only have three blocks, you will have a lot of stop and go action because only one block will be unoccupied and one train will have to move into the unoccupied block before the other train can move.

Detection (block occupancy) is easy with Gargraves, Atlas, and other track systems that don't have the two outside rails electrically connected.  If you have tubular track, it can be done but it would be very work intensive since you would have insulate one of the outside rails at each cross tie.  So then your three rails are neutral, hot (center), and detection/occupancy. Basically, the wheels of the train will short the neutral rail to the insulated (detection) rail and will activate any circuit (solenoid, relay, or signal) where the other side is connected to hot.  The easiest is probably to connect to a relay which in turn operates the signals.

Thanks for your reply!  You make an excellent point about 4 blocks vs. 3 blocks.  I am using Gargraves Phantom track, So I was thinking of a detection system as you describe.  I haven't used relays in the past, but I assume this is how I can get the signals to change from red to green and back again?  Also, I'd like to have the system "kill" the power to a train approaching an occupied block, until that block is cleared.  I'm thinking that a relay could do that by cutting power to only a small portion of the block as the train approaches that end of the block, restoring the power when the next block is clear.  Is that feasible?

I did this with conventional running (all there was back in the day) years ago with relays and Lionel two track signal bridges.  Forty eight feet is not as long as you think.  My mains were almost sixty feet long and two blocks were more than enough.  I ran a traditional ten car passenger with ABA F3s and freight train about the same length on the same track.   Each train passing a signal cut the power to a short portion of the following block  just before that block's signal (about six feet)  and set the signal to stop. The control tracks at the signal were six feet long as well. I made these by insulating one rail on two KLine three foot track sections  Both train's  e-units were locked in forward.   The two trains could run for hours, setting signals and blocking each other while my two sons and I ran the rest of the layout     

I'm sure you will get some good advice here from members using a few different kinds of block control. My layout is just one big loop with reverse loops and yards on each end. To try and give you some idea of the length of track, if I start a train in one yard, it takes 5 minutes to get to the other reverse loop and another 5 back at scale speed. The reason it takes so long is my basement is 50' long by 30' wide. The layout is housed in 3/4s of it. I take advantage of the length to have grades of less than .85%, and a train just runs through the system of elevation changes which gets the long run times. Along the way I have a few passing sidings and of course multiple yard tracks. I have run conventional for almost 30 years on this layout and now use Legacy for those engines so equipped. For me, I make a block between switches. If its a long section of track, I use multiple feed wires along the length to keep the voltage constant. I see no reason to break up a long run into blocks but that is my preference. I control each block with a three position toggle switch. Up could be the left side throttle and the down position the other throttle lever. The center is off. This works well when you come to a passing siding and you want to have two trains pass. Pretty easy to figure out. All my yard leads and sidings are on the same block control. Each has its own power feed through a  toggle switch. Other aspects such as signal control or accessory activation can be accomplished by isolating a rail and using a relay to make the light or accessory work. If any of this sounds confusing and you need help, my email is on my profile page as well as my phone number.   When I purchased a Legacy Control System, my system of wiring was conducive to using that control. I can send you some pictures to better illustrate what I wrote here if you need more help. Just send me your email. Bill

@Conductor Earl posted:

I did this with conventional running (all there was back in the day) years ago with relays and Lionel two track signal bridges.  Forty eight feet is not as long as you think.  My mains were almost sixty feet long and two blocks were more than enough.  I ran a traditional ten car passenger with ABA F3s and freight train about the same length on the same track.   Each train passing a signal cut the power to a short portion of the following block  just before that block's signal (about six feet)  and set the signal to stop. The control tracks at the signal were six feet long as well. I made these by insulating one rail on two KLine three foot track sections  Both train's  e-units were locked in forward.   The two trains could run for hours, setting signals and blocking each other while my two sons and I ran the rest of the layout     

Thanks for your reply!  That is my main concern, that 48 feet is short for my expectations.  When I stand and look at the overall layout, it does seem smaller than what I had envisioned, although it is the biggest layout I have built.  So far, there is a "switching maze" of Gargraves turnouts at the back of the layout.  It works to switch trains between the outer loop, inner loop, an industrial complex loop and one long passing siding.  This section is approximately 7 feet in length.  All turnouts are manual, as I have employed a 6 year old Switchman.  There is one more switch where the passing loop joins the mainline again (approximately 14 feet), another set halfway around the layout connecting the two mainlines and one more switch on the side opposite the passing siding that connects a dead end siding to a station.  I very much like your system of running 2 trains in the manner you describe.  I could run 4 trains on the too mainline loops like this.  The Switchman would very much enjoy this!

@Bill Park posted:

I'm sure you will get some good advice here from members using a few different kinds of block control. My layout is just one big loop with reverse loops and yards on each end. To try and give you some idea of the length of track, if I start a train in one yard, it takes 5 minutes to get to the other reverse loop and another 5 back at scale speed. The reason it takes so long is my basement is 50' long by 30' wide. The layout is housed in 3/4s of it. I take advantage of the length to have grades of less than .85%, and a train just runs through the system of elevation changes which gets the long run times. Along the way I have a few passing sidings and of course multiple yard tracks. I have run conventional for almost 30 years on this layout and now use Legacy for those engines so equipped. For me, I make a block between switches. If its a long section of track, I use multiple feed wires along the length to keep the voltage constant. I see no reason to break up a long run into blocks but that is my preference. I control each block with a three position toggle switch. Up could be the left side throttle and the down position the other throttle lever. The center is off. This works well when you come to a passing siding and you want to have two trains pass. Pretty easy to figure out. All my yard leads and sidings are on the same block control. Each has its own power feed through a  toggle switch. Other aspects such as signal control or accessory activation can be accomplished by isolating a rail and using a relay to make the light or accessory work. If any of this sounds confusing and you need help, my email is on my profile page as well as my phone number.   When I purchased a Legacy Control System, my system of wiring was conducive to using that control. I can send you some pictures to better illustrate what I wrote here if you need more help. Just send me your email. Bill

Thanks for the reply, Bill!  You must have an awesome layout!  My layout measures approximately 12' x 18'.  The only track plan I have for it is in my head, which has been revised several times.  There is approximately equal distance of track between the 2 crossover switches on the mainline track.   One set is at the rear of the layout and the other opposite it on the front of the layout.  There is one passing siding on the right side of the layout.  I am following along with your description of the SPDT power switch system.  I only have one passing siding and will be using 2 basic ZW transformers, so that wiring is simple for me.  I also have 2 mainline crossovers, one in the front and one in the back of the layout.  So this allows a "passing siding" effect if needed.  So far I have only one other dead end siding off the main.  There will be another connection to a dog bone loop of track in the industrial area, which can double as a passing siding if needed.  I have no yard and no grades.  Eventually there will be a second level, independent of lower tracks.  I'm not too far from you, up in Glens Falls.  My layout is now in the track laying phase of the lower level, with track, tools, screws, parts and Menard buildings still in the plastic scattered around on it.  I'll try to get some pictures up here when I get it more organized.

I did this back in the day with relays.  one of the problems I had was jack rabbit starts.  It helps too if the the speed of the different trains are close.

@ogaugenut posted:

I did this back in the day with relays.  one of the problems I had was jack rabbit starts.  It helps too if the the speed of the different trains are close.

Thanks for your reply!  I can see how that can happen and I will keep that in mind.  Perhaps a resistor "in line" would help that?  I don't want to get too complicated though!

A resister is theoretically possible but practically difficult, because once the train gets started you must take the resister out of the circuit.  You end up with multiple relays per block.

@ogaugenut posted:

A resister is theoretically possible but practically difficult, because once the train gets started you must take the resister out of the circuit.  You end up with multiple relays per block.

Yes, I was thinking that also.  Thanks again!

What about infrared sensors such as those offered by ZStuff for trains?

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

What about infrared sensors such as those offered by ZStuff for trains?

I am not familiar with those.  I am very "old school".  I will check them out!  Thanks!

I made the purchase and they will be installed soon. You don’t have to insulate the outside rail. Do a search on the forum and you’ll get great information.

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

I made the purchase and they will be installed soon. You don’t have to insulate the outside rail. Do a search on the forum and you’ll get great information.

Thanks again, I am looking into these and will certainly read up on the information here.  I'm not concerned about insulating the outside rail, as I am using Gargraves track.  But I am looking into anything that will make it easier to wire.  My benchwork has shelving units for a base, which makes it a little harder to run wires underneath.  But I do have some good ideas for "above the table" wiring from another question I posted here.