Lionel Vision Line Centipede Performance

This is a VL set and the dual sound systems are meant to be run as a unit as they have very different, but co-ordinated, sound sets. The rear facing unit can run on its own but the sound set won’t be right. Together they do rumble around very nicely.

You are right that programming the engines as one is not obvious from the first couple of pages of the manual. It is however in the instruction video Lionel did at the time - probably because they put two orange modules in the box, one for each engine, when you are only meant to use the lead engine one. My UP version came with two modules separately numbered for the two units but the second one, whatever info it contains, is not used.

More generally, programming most Legacy A-A diesel sets under one number isn’t always obvious from the manuals, which contain standard Legacy instructions about assigning separate engine IDs and building a train. But it seems that they all default to running as a unit out of the box and you just program them with the same ID and they maintain the default setting. Or at least this is what I have found with all the A-A sets I have.

Interesting, when we had a guy with an electronic tractive effort measuring car at our club, my Vision Line Big Boy clocked in right at seven pounds of tractive force on Atlas track, best single engine performance in the place.  I'm shocked that the pair of Centipedes with four motors and tons of tires on the ground can't equal that!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Interesting, when we had a guy with an electronic tractive effort measuring car at our club, my Vision Line Big Boy clocked in right at seven pounds of tractive force on Atlas track, best single engine performance in the place.  I'm shocked that the pair of Centipedes with four motors and tons of tires on the ground can't equal that!

I’m thinking along your lines,....you’d think that weight and amount of wheels on the rails would curl up the rails,....😉.....only thing that comes to mind is if that set up just has such a small diameter wheel, that the torque just overcomes the wheel diameter so quickly the test ends at 3 lbs,.just about all of the big Premier articulated pull north of 6 1/2 pounds,....interesting findings by Pennsyforever,.......

Pat

Could it be that because the weight is distributed over so many wheels that you don't get the tractive weight needed per axle?

Good point Curtis, and how many of those centipede  axles are actually powered.?

OK, Gentlemen, the Centipedes are a 2-D-D-2. All eight inner axles are powered on the Vision line Baldwin DR-12-1500/2 so you have eight axles with power. The two outer axles on each D truck have traction tires.  Given the weight of the two units, I was surprised there was not more pull. as CurtisH says, maybe it is weight distribution.  Here's a better comparison than four 3rd Rail E8s, using cannon drive, which will pull the gauge out of your grip. A Lionel ALCO DL304/305 (better known as the PA/PB), in an ABBA configuration (a competitor configuration to the Centipedes) has a tractive effort of only 1.99LBS (averaged over five pull tests). Trying to pull the Lionel 8 car lightweight broadway limited  (Train weight, 21.19LBS, pull weight, 11.8OZ) at 1-2MPH, the ALCO ABBA setup will stall. I have not tried, but I guess that would not happen with the Centipedes, which have almost twice the tractive force. As regards the Lionel Big boy, I wonder how much it weights, probably a ton!!!??? Seven pounds of pull from one engine is impressive. Has anyone tested a Lionel J1 (Pennsy's largest steam)?

Pennsyforever

I would not assume that the two units running together equal greater tractive force even if instinctively you think that they would. If they are not running in near enough perfect synch, isn’t pulling power going to be degraded  by the motors effectively fighting each other to pull the weight of the engines? Anyway, another possible comparison is with another Lionel Lionel die cast diesel, the TMCC Veranda Turbine. This is a single unit, two motors, that weighs in at nearly 17 lbs. Drawbar pull was measured at 3 lbs, 6 Oz when the engine was issued in 2006.

There could be a couple of reasons for the lack of traction:IE Is the transformer capable of producing enough wattage? Can the track and wiring deliver it? Are there enough pick ups on the loco's deliver it. Did lionel use a large enough gage of wire? Hope this helps.

Well it was also true of the prototypes. The Bigboy has nearly double the horsepower.

Bigboy :

Centipede:

Rick, you do realize that your figures above for the Centipede is for a single unit.  An AA set like the PRR ran had 6000 hp and over 200,000 lb tractive effort.  Reliability and maintenance were the problems, not muscle power.

@RickO posted:

Well it was also true of the prototypes. The Bigboy has nearly double the horsepower.

Bigboy :

Maximum speed	80 mph (130 km/h)
Power output	5,500–6,290 hp (4,100–4,690 kW) @ 41 mph (Drawbar)
Tractive effort	135,375 lbf (602.18 kN)

Centipede:

Maximum speed	93 mph (150 km/h)
Power output	3,000 hp (2.24 MW)
Tractive effort	102,500 lbf (455.94 kN)

So what your saying Rick, this is a case where Lionel got it right!?....😆😆😆

Pat

@RickO posted:

Well it was also true of the prototypes. The Bigboy has nearly double the horsepower.

Bigboy :

Maximum speed	80 mph (130 km/h)
Power output	5,500–6,290 hp (4,100–4,690 kW) @ 41 mph (Drawbar)
Tractive effort	135,375 lbf (602.18 kN)

Centipede:

Maximum speed	93 mph (150 km/h)
Power output	3,000 hp (2.24 MW)
Tractive effort	102,500 lbf (455.94 kN)

For what it's worth, there is no way in he%% that a UP 4000 class 4-8-8-4 could even go 80 MPH!!!!  They had 68" diameter drive wheels and were limited to under 65 MPH (and that's why you never see the restored #4014 EVER over 60 MPH).

Hancock52, thanks so much for the information on the Lionel 2006 GTEL. I am shocked at the weight (17LBS) and only 3LBS 6OZ of pull. In my mind the 2021 GTEL should have more than just to can motors.

Pennsyforever

@Bob posted:

Rick, you do realize that your figures above for the Centipede is for a single unit.  An AA set like the PRR ran had 6000 hp and over 200,000 lb tractive effort.  Reliability and maintenance were the problems, not muscle power.

Maybe Lionel modeled the BH50, not the BP60, and that is why they don't pull as well  All PRR's Centipedes were downrated from 6,000 hp/pair to 5,000 hp/pair soon after they got them, and switched them from passenger service to mostly pusher/some freight service.

@pennsyforever posted:

Hancock52, thanks so much for the information on the Lionel 2006 GTEL. I am shocked at the weight (17LBS) and only 3LBS 6OZ of pull. In my mind the 2021 GTEL should have more than just to can motors.

Pennsyforever

What I haven’t done lately is count the number of traction tires on the Centipede set (it hasn’t needed replacements recently). The TMCC Veranda has 8 traction tires, but four motors in it would not be possible with the two smoke units and all the outsize TMCC boards in it. Anyway, for my purposes it’s a stump puller and will shift anything I put behind it.

I think that I have seen in a pre-production diagram posted here recently showing that the new Legacy Veranda will have more than 8 traction tires on it but that might be a misprint. Another comparison is the MTH UP80 coal turbine with 4 motors and no less than 12 traction tires between the A and B units. However, I have not tried measuring the drawbar pull of mine, nor have I seen one published in a review.