MTH 44 Tonner Compatible with Lionel CW-80?

I would not expect good results unless something has changed that I don't know about? There are good options for power that aren't too expensive.

You will not be able to operate the 44 ton on the CW80 properly. If you'd want to venture to non-Lionel engines, an MTH transformer would be a good purchase. They can run anything, unlike the CW80.

Based on personal experience some time ago, I would hesitate to recommend using a CW80 for operating MTH trains.

Thanks guys,  I will pass this one up.

George

vallieone posted:

Thanks guys,  I will pass this one up.

George

So you're going to pass on a $400 engine because of not buying a MTH transformer for $75??  Why not buy a Z1000 and sell the CW80? Can buy any engine then.

-Greg

If you are running conventional, why not try the Williams by Bachmann 44-Tonner?  It is a conventional loco.

As luck would have it, I pre-ordered the GW-180 several  months ago from one of our forum sponsors and is currently due to be shipped this month.  I never considered any of the MTH transformers at that time since I had no intention of buying an MTH product. 

I will take a look at the Williams version and thank you for that suggestion.

SJC posted:

You will not be able to operate the 44 ton on the CW80 properly. If you'd want to venture to non-Lionel engines, an MTH transformer would be a good purchase. They can run anything, unlike the CW80.

What other "Non Lionel" engines do not play nicely with the CW-80?

MTH PS-2/3 are the only locomotives that I have ever had issues with.

Doug

Most MTH engines with PS-2 & PS-3 won't work with the Lionel CW-80 as the CW-80's output confuses the electronics in the MTH engines. The Lionel GW-180 I am not sure of how it will do with MTH engines.

The Atlas 80 watt transformer should do well with most MTH engines.

Lee Fritz

You're unnecessarily limiting yourself based on such a simple thing as a power supply. You could buy an MTH Z-750 on eBay right now for less than $50 from a variety of dealers. You could easily use your incoming GW-180 and a Z-750 by installing a switch to change power supplies for the entire layout, or create sections powered independently to run different trains.

As for the Williams scale 44-tonner (which is smaller than the oversized version, so beware which one you buy), it has a plastic shell and diecast frame. The MTH version is all diecast metal. That may or may not matter to you.

I use both an MTH Z-4000 and an 80-watt Lionel transformer (same cabinet as a CW-80, but with a separate brick) at home. And I run trains at a club layout which uses Lionel ZW-L transformers, with one loop including an option for a Z-4000. So I can run my Lionel, MTH, Williams, K-Line and RMT locomotives wherever I go. That makes the hobby more fun for me.

This is a perfect example of what's wrong with O gauge today... why can't something as simple as a power supply be standardized?!

mlavender480 posted:

This is a perfect example of what's wrong with O gauge today... why can't something as simple as a power supply be standardized?!

I understand and agree with what you are saying. But it seems people always blame the CW-80, MTH PS-2 and PS-3 electronics are the ONLY ones that I have EVER had trouble with running on a CW-80. NEVER any troubles with Lionel (obviously) K-Line, Williams, Atlas, Weaver, RMT, JUST MTH PS-2 & 3.

  So is THE PROBLEM, the CW-80? or the MTH PS-2/3 electronics? Guess it just depends on your point of view. FWIW, I do own many PS-2/3 locomotives and many CW-80's, I just don't try to run them together. A bit inconvenient? YEP, but then I also have to "Remember" to fill my Wife's Expedition with GASOLINE, and my Pick Up with Diesel. In the big scheme of things, it is a MINOR inconvenience, especially compared to the consequences of putting Gasoline in my pick up

  As many have probably read before, I personally Prefer the CW-80, and it's MTH limitations, to the MTH Z 500-1000 series transformers, YMMV.

Doug

I'm not blaming the CW80 as such, I guess I should have worded that better.  My point is that this stuff should work with any AC power supply regardless of manufacturer.  The whole business of having to buy certain transformers to run certain trains is ridiculous in my opinion.

Hi Mike,

 I agree with your earlier post, in 3 rail AC powered trains, you SHOULD be able to run any train on any power supply, unfortunately that is not completely the case.

 I see people posting all the time about the CW-80, not being compatible with MTH PS-2/3, like it is the CW-80 that is the problem. MTH are the only trains that I have ever had trouble with running on a CW-80, so is the Problem the CW-80, or the MTH PS-2/3 electronics? that is just a matter of one's point of view, it could be argued either way, maybe MTH should have designed their PS-2/3 electronics to be compatible with an EXTREMELY common transformer.

I did not mean to single you out in particular, there is a large group of CW-80 haters out there, which is a club that I am NOT a member of. I own a number of MTH PS-2/3 locomotives, but I am not among those who feel that Mike Wolf can do no wrong, and should have been given Saint status years ago.

Doug

I agree that MTH should have addressed its electronics issue by now, but keep in mind that the electronics were designed to run with postwar transformers, not just MTH transformers. The introduction of chopped sine wave transformers came after MTH began working with QSI in the 1990s.

Back to the topic, about the MTH 44-tonner. The original poster sounds like he has made up his mind. And that's fine. But for others, I would say I am not sure it makes sense to ignore the product releases of one of O gauge's Big Two manufacturers based on transformer considerations.

It's a minor inexpensive hurdle to overcome.

I also have two CW-80 transformers that came with train sets (included one with the early electronic glitch), and I love their look and usefulness. But I would never base my buying decisions on a starter set transformer.

I have a Milwaukee Road 44-tonner from MTH on order for next year, assuming the latest MTH catalog hold to its usual lag time. I can't wait.

Seems to me a Williams 44 tonner would suit this person just fine. AND run with his CW-80.

challenger3980 posted:

Hi Mike,

I did not mean to single you out in particular, there is a large group of CW-80 haters out there, which is a club that I am NOT a member of. I own a number of MTH PS-2/3 locomotives, but I am not among those who feel that Mike Wolf can do no wrong, and should have been given Saint status years ago.

Doug

Oh, believe me, I'm not either.  I have two CW80's and both work fine, even the older "mis-wired" one from my Polar Express set.  You're spot-on in saying that MTH should have designed PS2/3 to work with one of the the most common transformers out there. It really makes you wonder.

Jim 1939 posted:

Seems to me a Williams 44 tonner would suit this person just fine. AND run with his CW-80.

Agree. It's a good alternative, especially if conventional control is all you want, in this particular instance.

But what happens when MTH puts out a product that you really want and Williams and Lionel don't make.

Again, as one of the other posters said, you could choose any postwar or MTH transformer without chopped wave signatures and run anything. Or, as I said, you could add a second inexpensive MTH transformer, and switch between the two power sources.

Opens up a much larger world of choices.

How do you switch between the two power sources without disconnecting the main power wires from one transformer and attaching them to the other?

A simple SPDT(Single Pole Double Throw) switch will do this. if there is only one power block, the entire loop/layout all wired together, then only one switch is needed.

 If the loop/layout is divided into more than one power block, then one switch would be needed for each power block that you want to selectively control which transformer you are using. Using one switch per power block is known as "Cab Control"  wiring, and by using a "Center OFF" SPDT or DPDT (Double Pole Double Throw) you can control trains on two different tracks independently, and have other tracks "Dead" turned off, with more trains on them but not running.

Doug

In the 50's and 60's the power supply was a variable transformer. That's not the case today, with power supplies employing semi-conductors that (chop) create shark tooth wave forms. If you want to run anything and everything without issues, either buy a Post War transformer or an MTH Z4000. The Z4000 creates a quasi sine wave that will power any O gauge locomotive.

An SPDT switch will have 3 connections on it, you would hook up the TRACK FEED wire to the CENTER switch terminal. Then connect the wire that would go to the CENTER RAIL from each transformer, to the outer terminals of the switch, one transformer to each terminal, this allows you to switch back and forth between transformers without disconnecting/reconnecting any wires. With 3 Rail AC power, you just need to switch the "HOT" lead, which is the wire connected to the center rail, if your transformers are properly "Phased". then the outer rails can remain unswitched and "Common Return"

If all you have, or can find is/are DPDT switches, which will have TWO parallel rows of 3 connections you can use those by just using one row of contacts and it wont matter, other than a DPDT will probably be a little bit more expensive than an SPDT switch, but it shouldn't be a HUGE difference pricewise. There are other uses for DPDT's as well. An HO club that I am a member of had 4 mainline control panels where two operators would sit at each panel, and there would be LED's that would light GREEN on your panel if one of the operators at your panel had selected a track block, if an operator at another panel had selected a track block, the LED's on the other panels would show RED, so two operators SHOULDN'T select the same block at the same time (still happened too often) of course DCC took care of that. If NO ONE had a block selected then the LED's would be dark, signifying that the block was available, and operators were only SUPPOSED to select blocks that they were actually using, with preselecting a block or two ahead of their train and "Dropping" blocks shortly(In Theory)after their train exited a block.

Doug

This is the first time I actually asked a question on the forum and I received three answers that were a great help. I can see why everyone uses this great forum. Thanks very much guys.

I just have one more question.

Does the MTH Z 750 create a quasi sine wave and could I use that with a Protosound3 locomotive?

Whenever I've tried to run any MTH Engine with Proto 2 or Proto 3 it it always been with a z1000 no Lionel Transformers, as the sine wave is different you will not get the same results.

Joe Gozzo

All MTH transformers use the same basic design, including the Z-750. However, I recommend not dipping below a Z-1000 if you don't want to overload your transformer. 

Thanks Jim

Jim R. posted:

Jim 1939 posted:

Seems to me a Williams 44 tonner would suit this person just fine. AND run with his CW-80.

Agree. It's a good alternative, especially if conventional control is all you want, in this particular instance.

But what happens when MTH puts out a product that you really want and Williams and Lionel don't make.

Again, as one of the other posters said, you could choose any postwar or MTH transformer without chopped wave signatures and run anything. Or, as I said, you could add a second inexpensive MTH transformer, and switch between the two power sources.

Opens up a much larger world of choices.

Jim R. has a good point in having two DIFFERENT transformers available, yeah it may not look as Pretty as matched transformers, BUT one of the Virtues of the CW-80 transformer that is VERY Valuable to ME, is it's near ZERO minimum voltage, I haven't used an MTH Z4000, but the Z500, 750 and 1000 that I have do NOT have as low of a starting voltage as the CW-80. A near zero starting voltage can be very important in conventional only can motored locomotives if you want a Nice SMOOOOOOTH start, and SLOOOOOW minimum running speeds, many transformers go from Zero to 5-6 volts instantly, resulting in Jack rabbit starts and lurching stops.

  I have heard and read of many locomotives being criticized for jerky starts and stops and poor slow speed performance, where I have personally run the same model locomotive Very Nicely with a CW-80, Quite often it is actually a Fine locomotive and the REAL culprit is the TRANSFORMER having too high of a minimum starting voltage, then the Locomotive gets blamed without ever being tried with a different transformer.

  It is True that the EARLY CW-80's had some issues, but guys those were fixed by 2006, TIME TO GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!, some people just can't let go of the past. The CW-80 is very likely THE MOST COMMON transformer in use today, maybe not for Basement filling layouts, but that is NOT what it was designed for. For a simple loop, or SMALL layout it is a very Fine transformer.

 The CW-80 has the already mentioned near zero minimum voltage, and a Variable Voltage accessory output, the Z500 and 750's have NO accessory outputs and the Z-1000 only has a fixed voltage output. The Z-1000 is only a nominal 20 watts greater output than the CW-80, I have, and have used both, and have never had a train that the CW-80 wouldn't run, and the Z-1000 would, that is a very narrow range, and if you are there it is time to step up to a larger transformer. I prefer the "all in one" of the CW-80 to the separate "Power Brick" and controller combination, there is no reason especially in this size transformer to need separate pieces. And in MY OPINION, the CW-80 is a MUCH better looking transformer, with retro styling compared to the Z- Controllers that to ME, look like something out of a cheap HO set.

YMMV,

Doug

Gentlemen,

   IMO keeping an entry level Transformer on any layout is a mistake, use the CW-80 for Street Cars and Bumper Cars on their own line, better yet get rid of the CW-80 all together.   I always recommend either an old Lionel KW or newer MTH Z1000 as a minimal power supply.  Further OMAN gives great advise about the Z4K, it will run any kind of O Gauge engine, however you must have the money to invest in one.  Usually you an pick a used one up for reasonable money, right here on the OGR.  IMO never limit the engines you purchase because of owning a entry level transformer. 

PCRR/Dave

mlavender480 posted:

... why can't something as simple as a power supply be standardized?!

$$$... available cheaper technology.

Jim R. posted:

All MTH transformers use the same basic design, including the Z-750. However, I recommend not dipping below a Z-1000 if you don't want to overload your transformer. 

Hi Jim,

The content of this thread amazes me.  Why?  Because the Z750 and Z1000 are chopped sine wave.  There's something I'm missing on the CW80.  Maybe I need to snag the granddaughter's polar express transformer and scope it.

Lou N

Lou N posted:

Jim R. posted:

All MTH transformers use the same basic design, including the Z-750. However, I recommend not dipping below a Z-1000 if you don't want to overload your transformer. 

Hi Jim,

The content of this thread amazes me.  Why?  Because the Z750 and Z1000 are chopped sine wave.  There's something I'm missing on the CW80.  Maybe I need to snag the granddaughter's polar express transformer and scope it.

Lou N

Yes, yes. yes. The Z-4000 is the only one that simulates a sine wave. I do not know why the CW80 does not play well with MTH locomotives.

Are they really? I have never scoped them myself. I use a Z-4000 and CW-80 at home, plus an 80-watt Lionel brick with the controller that looks like a CW-80. Never had a Z-1000 or Z-750. I have a Z-500, but I haven't used it for more than 12 years, and I have never used the Z-500 on my big power hungry MTH steamers  

The CW-80 is the only one that I can confirm has irritated my MTH original Protosounds locomotives. 

Jim R. posted:

Are they really? I have never scoped them myself. I use a Z-4000 and CW-80 at home, plus an 80-watt Lionel brick with the controller that looks like a CW-80. Never had a Z-1000 or Z-750. I have a Z-500, but I haven't used it for more than 12 years, and I have never used the Z-500 on my big power hungry MTH steamers  

The CW-80 is the only one that I can confirm has irritated my MTH original Protosounds locomotives. 

Jim

Did you mean, is it really? The answer is yes. There is only one power supply that simulates a sign wave; the Z-4000.

Well, in that case, nix the Z-1000 as an option for MTH locomotives, the 44-toner included.