My understanding is the MTH Z500, Z750 and Z1000, are chopped sine wave, while the Z4000, is pure sine. I have a Z1000 and a Z750, and all my engines are Protosounds1 (QSI). They all run just fine on my existing transformers.
If I buy an MTH engine with Proto 2 or 3, am I going to need a different transformer, i.e., pure sine wave?
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Bob, I've run proto 2 engines on my Z-1000 and have not experienced any issues. Oddly enough I have the opposite problem, my proto 1 engines give me trouble on the Z-1000 line. I have better luck running them using an MRC Pure Power transformer.
- Mike
Z-1000, etc. are the perfect match for PS2 and PS3.
Until the new remote RTR sets, all PS2 MTH sets came with a Z-1000, Z-750, or Z-500.
Ed
My z-1000's + Proto 2 = no problems.
My understanding is the MTH Z500, Z750 and Z1000, are chopped sine wave, while the Z4000, is pure sine. I have a Z1000 and a Z750, and all my engines are Protosounds1 (QSI). They all run just fine on my existing transformers.
If I buy an MTH engine with Proto 2 or 3, am I going to need a different transformer, i.e., pure sine wave?
If you just use the brick from the Zxxx units, they're pure sine wave, it's the controller that chops the waveform.
all 11 of my PS2 and PS3 engines run fine with my 100 watt brick..sometimes 9 running at once..some looping [multi units], some idling....and i know i am pushing the limits of its power output. Also derailments have tripped the circuit breaker reliably.
You run 9 engines on one 100W brick? That must be a pretty neat trick, no way I'd ever get that many running!
My understanding is the MTH Z500, Z750 and Z1000, are chopped sine wave, while the Z4000, is pure sine. I have a Z1000 and a Z750, and all my engines are Protosounds1 (QSI). They all run just fine on my existing transformers.
If I buy an MTH engine with Proto 2 or 3, am I going to need a different transformer, i.e., pure sine wave?
If you just use the brick from the Zxxx units, they're pure sine wave, it's the controller that chops the waveform.
FWIW, I'll add to this by saying that although it might be frowned upon, I have a z-1000 w/ a z-controller inline with one of my fixed TIU/DCS channels that has operated PS2 & PS3 without any problems. When used, the z-controller provides smooth operation of some conventionally controlled units (handcars, ballast tamper, speeders and some other larger conventional or PS1 units) that would normally "take off" at the 5.5 volt minimum starting voltage that is system preset within the DCS Remote.
Not meaning to hijack this thread: I do wish MTH would lower the DCS minimum starting voltage below 5.5 volts. If the argument for the 5.5 volt min. is DCS signal degradation, I think MTH is short-sighted w/ regards to digital and conventional layout co-operation. If your running PS2/PS3/TMCC, the operator should know and will need to set the variable voltage to the higher required level.
My understanding is the MTH Z500, Z750 and Z1000, are chopped sine wave, while the Z4000, is pure sine. I have a Z1000 and a Z750, and all my engines are Protosounds1 (QSI). They all run just fine on my existing transformers.
If I buy an MTH engine with Proto 2 or 3, am I going to need a different transformer, i.e., pure sine wave?
Although I don't have any MTH locomotives, I believe that it's only some early PS-1 locomotive electronics that do not appreciate a chopped waveform. I understand that PS-2 and PS-3 electronics do not have any problems with a chopped waveform.
Keystone,
If you are talking about running conventional stuff powered from the TIU variable channels, I believe that the new 4.30 upgrade to the TIU will allow you to output as low as 1 volt on the variable channels.
I'm guessing that would be the case with 18 volts on a variable input side.
Ed
My understanding is the MTH Z500, Z750 and Z1000, are chopped sine wave, while the Z4000, is pure sine. I have a Z1000 and a Z750, and all my engines are Protosounds1 (QSI). They all run just fine on my existing transformers.
If I buy an MTH engine with Proto 2 or 3, am I going to need a different transformer, i.e., pure sine wave?
If you just use the brick from the Zxxx units, they're pure sine wave, it's the controller that chops the waveform.
FWIW, I'll add to this by saying that although it might be frowned upon, I have a z-1000 w/ a z-controller inline with one of my fixed TIU/DCS channels that has operated PS2 & PS3 without any problems. When used, the z-controller provides smooth operation of some conventionally controlled units (handcars, ballast tamper, speeders and some other larger conventional or PS1 units) that would normally "take off" at the 5.5 volt minimum starting voltage that is system preset within the DCS Remote.
Not meaning to hijack this thread: I do wish MTH would lower the DCS minimum starting voltage below 5.5 volts. If the argument for the 5.5 volt min. is DCS signal degradation, I think MTH is short-sighted w/ regards to digital and conventional layout co-operation. If your running PS2/PS3/TMCC, the operator should know and will need to set the variable voltage to the higher required level.
I think the fixed channels are straight thru, but the variable channels are chopped by the TIU. If I remember reading Barry's book correctly? I have trouble keeping it all straight sometimes.
Also, this was posted by Barry the other day, may have a fix for you.
Nicole is correct about only SOME PS1 engines have issues with the Z-controller chopped wave output.
NOTE, The Z-4000 acts like a Sine but is in reality a stepped output simulating a wave. I forget how many steps but the Scope trace clearly shows it has digital steps in the wave. It's close enough that no engine I know of can tell the difference.
Ed is also correct, according to the posted updates, DCS Variable output now goes to 1.0VAC. (chopped tho, not sine wave)
RTR12, Correct the Fixed channels are straight thru, no voltage variation in the TIU for those.
Nicole is correct about only SOME PS1 engines have issues with the Z-controller chopped wave output.
NOTE, The Z-4000 acts like a Sine but is in reality a stepped output simulating a wave. I forget how many steps but the Scope trace clearly shows it has digital steps in the wave. It's close enough that no engine I know of can tell the difference.
Ed is also correct, according to the posted updates, DCS Variable output now goes to 1.0VAC. (chopped tho, not sine wave)
RTR12, Correct the Fixed channels are straight thru, no voltage variation in the TIU for those.
Sounds like they put an inverter behind a smooth-performing DC throttle to get that "sine" wave on the Z4000. The Z500-Z1000 probably used phase limiters with some filtering capacitors on the output -- inexpensive to implement.
The Z4000 outputs a pretty good looking sine wave. Not perfect, but here's one at 19 volts with a 2 ohm load, showing a bit over 9 amps output.
Ladies & Gentlemen,
Some of the P1 engines did have problems with the smaller Z transformers, if you still run P1 engines, they run quite well with old Lionel ZW & KW transformers, just remember to use breakers between the old transformers and the TIU. Replace all the batteries in the P1 engines, with BCR's and have fun running your P1 engines.
PCRR/Dave
Just to refresh the discussion,
Bob's original statement was that he has PS1 engines on a Z-1000 and they all run fine. He was asking about PS2/3 engines he may get.
In response to his original question...PS2/3 engines will all run fine on all Z-xxx controllers AND via DCS Fixed or DCS Variable. Previous discussions aside, I have never heard anything to the contrary.
Keystone asked about TIU outputting less than 5 volts. The new update 4.3 will allow Variable output voltages starting at 1 volt.
Ed
Ed
Thank you Ed. I guess I no longer have an excuse not to update my TIU. BTW, how new is ver. 4.3? It might be safer to let 4.3 age a little.
Bob, sorry my earlier reply may have briefly taken your thread off the rails.
Ed
Thank you Ed. I guess I no longer have an excuse not to update my TIU. BTW, how new is ver. 4.3? It might be safer to let 4.3 age a little.
Bob, sorry my earlier reply may have briefly taken your thread off the rails.
In my post above there is a link to all the details on the DCS upgrade.
Keystone,
It was me who took the converstation off track a might, I was adding to the converstation and giving Bob a little more info on running his P1 engines, the P2 runs correctly from just about every transformer, having no P3 engines I do not actually know 1st hand, how they act when run from the smaller Z transformers.
PCRR/Dave
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