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After months of frustration with trying to make a 4 x 8 layout for my grandson to be stored vertically behind a dresser I am taking the whole thing apart, getting rid of the Gargraves manual switches and track and going all FasTrack on the same 2" Foam base.

After purchasing Ken Hoganson's excellent book, 21 Great Track Plans for Compact Layouts, I chose the Cisco RR Two-Train Operation on a 4'x8' Platform plan on page 111.

I have nearly all the materials to build it and am awaiting the two 048 RH Remote switches.  Ken uses a single CW-80 transformer, one 50' roll of 22 gauge solid core two-conductor wire .  He runs two runs of wires.  One for train power and a second for building and accessory power.  He is running LionChief locomotives.

"Power enters the layout at one corner where the wires go under a Woodland Scenics grass mat.  The wires are pressed into the foam.  That provides power to each of the loops.  A wire pair also runs underneath the outer root track to the other end of the layout.  That connects to a track section within each train route.  Power connects at four places on the layout:  two connections at each end of the loop."

He gives alternate power suggestions:

For LionChief or Command Control he suggests using a single power source without any power toggles with two power drops in the middle of each semi-circle (four total).

For Conventional Transformer Control he suggests wiring each of the two loops to separate transformers with a shared common on the outside rails and the center wires to separate transformers.  The connecting tracks that connect the two loops should have isolated center rails connected to a SPDT switch.  Each toggle connects the sidings center rail to either transformer allowing the trains to change loops.  The two spurs would have center rail on -off toggles for loco parking.

My question is that my grandson has one LionChief loco and one conventional.  How should I wire it so he can use either / or.  Conventional on both loops, LionChief on both loops, or one on each at the same time.

Thanks,

John

I removed the copyrighted track plan image.  It consists of an inner and outer loop with turnouts connecting them plus two spurs on the inner loop.

       

Last edited by Craftech
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@Brendan posted:

You can go with conventional control suggestion for two trains.  For whichever loop you want to run LionChief, set that loop's throttle to full.

Brendan

Sounds reasonable.  He has a low voltage (64 watt) MRC Throttlepack 0-24VAC and of course his LionChief wall warts.  Right now he has no accessories and they would have to be removed everyday for vertical storage.

Do you think he should get another low voltage transformer or a dual transformer or two more powerful transformers or something different?

Thanks,

John

Last edited by Craftech

More power never hurts.  Depends on the future loco roster.  The conventional loco is the fly in the ointment.  Two transformers would allow two conventional locos to run together - one on each loop.  You could go with one powerful transformer for the whole thing if you only run the conventional unit occasionally - run it by itself.  Again, it depends.

Brendan

@Brendan posted:

More power never hurts.  Depends on the future loco roster.  The conventional loco is the fly in the ointment.  Two transformers would allow two conventional locos to run together - one on each loop.  You could go with one powerful transformer for the whole thing if you only run the conventional unit occasionally - run it by itself.  Again, it depends.

Brendan

He's 5 so I don't know what the future holds.  After telling since last May I was making him a layout I am amazed he's still interested.  I wish I had gone all FasTrack from the get go.  But given the fact that they are in an apartment and this layout will go from behind a dresser to across his bed every time I am not sure about future expansion.  I know I am giving him a Streetcar I customized for his birthday this June and that runs on conventional.  He got a switcher for Christmas that runs on conventional.

Two conventional transformers sounds like a good idea.

John

I'm going to say something that may sound ridiculous at first, but please hear me out...

You may want to use something in the range of 12 gauge bus wires for track power on this 4' x 8' layout, as currently planned for two locomotive operation with uncouplers and other accessories.  Definitely not 22 gauge for track power.

Here's why, wire gauge ampacity ratings are based on wires being located in free air space.  As we know, wires have resistance.  The bigger the wire, the less resistance it has, with less electrical energy being converted to heat at a given voltage and current flow.

Because the wires for this layout will be embedded in 2" foam insulation, they will not be able to dissipate heat as quickly as if located in free air space.  Heating of the foam board may also be of concern, thus reducing the wire resistance may be prudent.

Hopefully one of the Electrical Engineers here on the forum like @gunrunnerjohn could make a more suitable gauge recommendation, than my pure guessing.

@SteveH posted:

I'm going to say something that may sound ridiculous at first, but please hear me out...

You may want to use something in the range of 12 gauge bus wires for track power on this 4' x 8' layout, as currently planned for two locomotive operation with uncouplers and other accessories.  Definitely not 22 gauge for track power.

Here's why, wire gauge ampacity ratings are based on wires being located in free air space.  As we know, wires have resistance.  The bigger the wire, the less resistance it has, with less electrical energy being converted to heat at a given voltage and current flow.

Because the wires for this layout will be embedded in 2" foam insulation, they will not be able to dissipate heat as quickly as if located in free air space.  Heating of the foam board may also be of concern, thus reducing the wire resistance may be prudent.

Hopefully one of the Electrical Engineers here on the forum like @gunrunnerjohn could make a more suitable gauge recommendation, than my pure guessing.

Thanks Steve,

I may use the thinner wire just for the six Fastrack turnouts because I have seen a few videos where telephone wire (22-24 gauge) is used for the four terminals [red, green, yellow, black] on those.

I do have speaker wire (16 gauge) and red and black copper wire (18 gauge) to use for bus wire.  I don't have 12 gauge.   But if most think it's wise, I'll buy it.  According to the instructions, the wire goes under the grass colored mat and is "pressed into the foam" from the top of the mat.

John

You don't really need to use those huge Fastrack controls.  A simple small SPDT on/off/on spring return to center toggle will do the same job.  The factory controls are huge...

You might also consider looking into some of the Z-Stuff DZ1002 switch controllers.  They have two LED's and two pushbuttons.  I'm pretty sure you could get the LED's working to reflect the switch position and rewire the pushbuttons to control the switches.

Here's what's in the DZ-1002 remote, a bit of rewiring of the internals and you'd have a nice compact flat switch control with position indicators.

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Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

You don't really need to use those huge Fastrack controls.  A simple small SPDT on/off/on spring return to center toggle will do the same job.  The factory controls are huge...

You might also consider looking into some of the Z-Stuff DZ1002 switch controllers.  They have two LED's and two pushbuttons.  I'm pretty sure you could get the LED's working to reflect the switch position and rewire the pushbuttons to control the switches.

Here's what's in the DZ-1002 remote, a bit of rewiring of the internals and you'd have a nice compact flat switch control with position indicators.

I may have four of these that came with my used Gargraves Remote Control Switches.  I think that's them.  Thanks

John

@Craftech I've been building this layout as well https://ogrforum.com/...a-4x8-fastrack-build

I decided to omit the crossovers from loop to loop to save some money for now, and since it's not totally required to hold the interest of my 3 year old. I also modified the outer loop to be a full compound curve, instead of inserting a small straight section like Ken does in the book plan. Ken actually has the diagram for the full compound curve in his book, I think he just "discovered" this later on since the Cisco plan is fairly old. I would recommend going that route - it fits just fine on that layout and the consistent curving appearance is nice. It's made of O48, Half O48, and Quarter O36 curves.

@GregK posted:

@Craftech I've been building this layout as well https://ogrforum.com/...a-4x8-fastrack-build

I decided to omit the crossovers from loop to loop to save some money for now, and since it's not totally required to hold the interest of my 3 year old. I also modified the outer loop to be a full compound curve, instead of inserting a small straight section like Ken does in the book plan. Ken actually has the diagram for the full compound curve in his book, I think he just "discovered" this later on since the Cisco plan is fairly old. I would recommend going that route - it fits just fine on that layout and the consistent curving appearance is nice. It's made of O48, Half O48, and Quarter O36 curves.

Thanks Greg.  I have been following that thread.  Lots of great ideas and your layout is coming along great.

Regards,

John

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