New Large Basement, Time for a Layout!

Gonna' a be awesome, Neal!  That's a great space. You seem to have a good grasp on a plan.

I suggest you may want to try crawling under a 30" high bench before you settle on that. I'm 5'10" and have benches 36" wide and around 40" high. Yes, I need a step stool to reach the back edge. But if I'm sitting on the floor under the bench wiring things up it is almost the perfect height when reaching up.

Be sure to leave some access room around the furnace and hot water tank. Both may need replacing at some point. Happened to me, and there was a pin leak after the new tank went in. (I'll sacrifice a chicken later so I don't jinx you.)

Neal, second the need for a higher layout. Our first level is 42” which allows us to fit under while sitting on a rolling stool. And I spend hours under there.

Our second level is 54”

If we did it over, we would increase each by 2”.

Don’t forget a black ceiling. It disappears.

6’ 2” and age 73 and quite glad about 42”. It doesn’t get any easier.

Good luck with the build.

Looks like a great space for a layout!

I concur with the need to pay attention to level heights. My current layout tables are 44" height and a pleasure to work under.

Just my opion  

Go with the largest curve you can, even in industrial area's. (072 is to small)  My main is 120" and everything else 096" minimum.  100 percent flex track and all numbered turnouts mostly # 6 and #8.   2.1 percent grades.

PS..... use the whole basement

Bill - I presume your second level is 64", not 54", as that would only leave 14" between levels?  I can definitely go a bit higher, especially the 1st level.  And yes, planning on a black ceiling.  😉

Thanks to all for the replies!

Congratulations on your endeavors. Since 48’x16’ will be quite a large layout, my suggestion would be to focus on the infrastructure that you will need. Evaluate your electrical needs and have additional outlets installed. If there are unfinished walls, run wire for outlets and then drywall everything. At least paint the walls sky blue; and perhaps a backdrop. Also consider your lighting needs and put them on dimmer switches. Given that you are in the basement; what about HVAC and moisture considerations. Will the floor remain concrete or will it be covered? Take your time to consider all the facets to avoid coulda, woulda, shoulda. And, research, read, and read some more.

Neal,

This looks really cool!  Congratulations and best of luck!  

My observation FWIW, and you’ll have time to research this further, 4% grade is a bit of a challenge.  And I ask others to join in on this, but I think the work an engine or engines must do for the 4% grade actually increases because the whole journey is around a curve.  I think of it this way.  Go around a tight curve when driving your car.  You’ll likely have to increase the gas to maintain your speed.  So your car’s engine is working harder to overcome the force that wants to keep you going straight.  For the layout, depending on the number of engines used and the length & weight of the consist, you may find the engine wheels slipping to the point of not being able the overcome the change in elevation and curved trackage.  That may limit what you can transfer from one level to the next.

I echo comments above - I’ve learned the hard way about working under the layout and the bangs on my head can attest to that.  Plan for dehumidification — my unit goes directly to a drain so that I don’t have to worry about checking and emptying it daily.  Finally, now is the time to consider your background/backdrop as Jay noted.

Hope this is helpful.

Bob

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

Congratulations on your endeavors. Since 48’x16’ will be quite a large layout, my suggestion would be to focus on the infrastructure that you will need. Evaluate your electrical needs and have additional outlets installed. If there are unfinished walls, run wire for outlets and then drywall everything. At least paint the walls sky blue; and perhaps a backdrop. Also consider your lighting needs and put them on dimmer switches. Given that you are in the basement; what about HVAC and moisture considerations. Will the floor remain concrete or will it be covered? Take your time to consider all the facets to avoid coulda, woulda, shoulda. And, research, read, and read some more.

Excellent advise on the walls, floors and especially the especially the electrical.

Also invest in a good dehumidifier. You can check your humidity levels with a cheap hydrometer from Wal-Mart or Amazon for less than $ 15.00.

My new basement has a shortage of outlets, and block walls so I will need to run some conduit and paint it.

Yes, I'm definitely thinking of having the remaining walls finished, if for no other reason than I hate trying to screw into concrete (poured concrete basement walls).  They also have a molded-in block texture that I'd want to cover anyways.  May go for a grey vs. blue paint background, as would be fall/winter in Ohio.  Would love to have printed winter background of the Appalachain foothills, but haven't found yet (though has been a couple years since I looked).  The basement isn't too bad, but I probably will want a dehumidifier.  Newer build house (2004) & the other half of the basement is finished into an in-law suite (w/walk-out access), so I may not need one.  Will probably ask contractor when I consider having the walls done.  Thinking I may just do garage floor pain on the smooth concrete floor.  I think I've done a pretty good job of leaving space for maintenance and/or replacement access to the critical structures in the basement, but will obviously re-measure before I start cutting wood.    Lighting-wise I'll probably want track lights or something to better illuminate the layout.  Will also want to switch to blue for night running, so may need 2 systems.  Would love something LED or whatever that can transition from day to dusk to night to dawn, though.

As for the incline I've read that about 4% is the max to do.  I could probably go a little shallower & still have clearances.  May build a test bed at some point before I begin real construction.  I won't be running long trains up there, so as long as I can do the PE Berkshire & 5 passenger cars I'm good.  Though could always have a pusher loco stationed at the base. Hmmmmm....

Have some other things to add, but have to get going & will be back later.  Thanks again for the comments & suggestions.  Also, if someone knows of a good power plant design that could fit in that space on the west peninsula I'm all ears. 

There's one more thing that I haven't taken into account yet and that is that there are wooden frames where the long, west wing of the basement meets the main part.  Above them are three joists that span the same distance as the others. 

It looked to me like it was prepped to wall that area off just like the kitchen is directly above it.  It's a ranch house, and I find it hard to believe that those boards are structural - I can't imagine any extra-heavy loads above - but I'd obviously want to clear it w/a contractor.  That having been said, another nearly identical house in our neighborhood also has this built in the same area.  If so, then I would need to re-design the west peninsula, though I guess the height of my lower level would be set plenty high. 

Anyhow, here are some images of the rest of the basement so you can have an idea of what I'm working with.  Please excuse the mess. 

Hope you all are well, and take care! 

- Neal

Appears to be doubled 2"x6"s supporting tripled floor joists.  I say it's structural.   Does your place have cathedral ceilings in the part of the house right upstairs?

Neal, would it be possible to check with the identical house. Perhaps that would provide insight. But, I would concur with the opinion of a reputable contractor or a home inspection engineer.

Neil, you have a great space for a layout and a super plan.

If you ever think may want to put a ceiling in the layout part of the basement,  now is the time.  A sheet rock ceiling is not very expensive and will keep down the dust from the floor and joists above and the noise down both ways.  It will give you more finished look to the layout too.  You would have to figure out your lighting and ceiling electricals for the ceiling first.

Charlie

Neal,

That's a load bearing wall that the triple beam is supporting.  It is at a junction of two sections of your house.  You woould need to consult a structural engineer for options on what you can do.  The solution would involve bolting additional material, i.e., a steel plate to one or both sides of the LVLs.  The wires complicate the solution.

Consider building a soffit to hid the pipes and ducts.  You could add LED to the underside for lighting.

Jan

@Phil McCaig posted:

Appears to be doubled 2"x6"s supporting tripled floor joists.  I say it's structural.   Does your place have cathedral ceilings in the part of the house right upstairs?

More than likely not structural.  You have triple joists in the ceiling in that area that can handle quite a load. Plus vertical supports in a basement are typically metal posts, not wood.  Wood touching concrete that has any level of moisture will rot eventually.  Get expert assessment but you should be good.  I would recommend a dehumidifier not matter how dry it is. Basements are humid.  Nice space for a layout.

@Fridge56Vet  Couple of things - I strongly suggest you seal the concrete and walls with a penetrating sealer - do not use a coating.  There are several on the market. I used a product from Stone Technologies.  It bonds internally with the concrete, reducing porosity. It can be used on floors and walls. I have an unfinished area in my work shop, after 9 years I have no concrete dusting from the floors no water seeping through the floors when something impermeable sits directly on the floor.  Check your floor by taping a 2x2 chunk of plastic sheeting to the floor. After a couple of days you may find water droplets on the plastic. The better ones not only stop the water but will also reduce radon permeation. Hard to say but it looks like there is already some type of finish on the concrete floors.

Second - if that framed in doorway was load bearing it would be more robust and likely a steel post. If you are going to frame a doorway, it needs minimally 2 2x4s or 2 2x6s just like what is in the photo. There does appear to be an overhead load in that area given the 3x lam versus the fabricated joists. The laminated beam would transfer the load to the ends/walls. Of course you should ask a professional who actually sees the spot, to provide a judgement.

Lastly - have you thought about how many trains you want running at any one time? Do you want to let them run or actively manage passing sidings and crossings? From what I see, you have a single loop. The second level would provide one more. Of course this is coming from a "looper".   

One more lastly - I agree with the comment that 4% is too much. It will be worse with a long train going up what is essentially a helix. My small layout has 3% grades in spots. Its ok, but I would prefer no more than 2.5% and I think the scale 2 railers are max 1.5% to 2%. The couple scale wheel engines I have, do not like the 3% grades. 

A magnificent Coal Power Plant is available - a Korber product. Mr. Muffins Trains in Indiana handles that line, but other dealers may have it too. Unfortunately, the "General Power & Light" building is available from Mr. Muffin only in HO scale; it has a large central core with an add-on and a remote-site substation. Maybe it will be available in O scale sometime soon. It's impressive!

A suggestion ... a Power Plant would benefit from a companion action accessory; i.e., the Lionel Rotating Coal Unloader. Another coal-related accessory is the Lionel Coal Ramp.

Envy is one of the deadly sins. Your expansive basement is a suitable location for an O-gauge empire, and it would promote "sin" among other hobbyists.  Carry on, regardless ....

Just saying ...

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

Thank you all for the replies!

Phil - No cathedral ceilings, just a wall & kitchen entrance that's about 7' tall & 6' wide.  I bet it's framed out just like in the basement picture. 

Charlie - Definitely would like to paint the joists, etc. flat black.  Not sure about an actual ceiling, though.  Could see what a contractor thinks & how much it'd be if I have him do the walls.  Would also want to have the air conditioning unit moved (outside - it's smack in the middle of the patio, is unsightly, & makes a lot of noise) 1st, which shouldn't be too hard from what the A/C guy said. 

Jim - That's what I was thinking - that a structural support would be metal, not wood.  There does not appear to be any sort of metal or plastic plate between the wood & concrete, either.  Will obviously want a professional opinion, of course. 

ScoutingDad - I will obviously check with the contractor, but it does appear that there is a sealant or coating of some sort on the walls & floor.  The other half of the basement (not shown in SCARM) is completely finished, electrified, plumbed (full bath & kitchen), & carpeted, so I wouldn't be surprised.  I'll definitely try the plastic trick.   

I guess you could call my layout Hi-Rail Scale more than scale - definitely a 3-railer & won't have scale wheels/flanges to worry about.  The upper level will be a single mainline with a turnaround to head back down the mountain, so that main will be dependent on trains from below outside of local switching.  I would say I'm a runner but not necessarily a looper.  If just me I'd probably only have 1 train running (with priority) on the main & then maybe try to manage a local serving industries, switch things in the yard, etc. around said train.  Adding other operators could increase the complexity.  I'm not one that needs numerous trains running at once. 

I'm tinkering w/using the bridge to increase the length of the grade to get down to 3.0%.  I'll post what I come up with soon.  It's unlikely I'd run long trains up there, but I would want to get my scale PE berk with 5 scale PE cars up at minimum. 

Mike - Definitely aware of the Korber power plant unit, is definitely on my list!  Just need to figure how to put in on the west peninsula. 

Thanks again to all!

- Neal

Neal, it looks like a really nice space begging for a layout!  I don’t have much to add other than what others suggested.  One thing I may have missed seeing is if you have adequate electrical service, outlet.  I saw you mentioned lights.  It seems there is never enough.  I didn’t notice any outlets along the concrete walls.  It seems you have thought of a lot of the issues getting an unfinished room prepared.

@Fridge56Vet posted:

There's one more thing that I haven't taken into account yet and that is that there are wooden frames where the long, west wing of the basement meets the main part.  Above them are three joists that span the same distance as the others.

It looked to me like it was prepped to wall that area off just like the kitchen is directly above it.  It's a ranch house, and I find it hard to believe that those boards are structural - I can't imagine any extra-heavy loads above - but I'd obviously want to clear it w/a contractor.  That having been said, another nearly identical house in our neighborhood also has this built in the same area.  If so, then I would need to re-design the west peninsula, though I guess the height of my lower level would be set plenty high. 

- Neal

Neal- My guess is that this is simply a framed opening for a future bonus room. If it were designed to be structural, a steel column would have been installed on a footing below the floor slab. I can't tell from the pix but does the triple beam land on the corner of the foundation or run past it?
Regardless- consult a local professional to know for sure. At minimum, I'm sure one side could be removed without affecting anything.

The brick pattern in the concrete is unique, but I would frame out the whole room and hang sheetrock. Add a ceiling too, or spray the joists black to make it disappear. I don't see any outlets either. Framing and wiring would be my choice.
Two lighting systems would be best, one for work light (recessed) and tracks for the layout lighting. Plenty of color changing LED systems on the market that can go from daylight to night with a smart phone app.

Good luck and keep posting updates.

Bob

Mark & Bob:  Yes, I will need an electrician to run power throughout that part of the basement.  I believe the only 2 outlets down there are at the breaker box. Definitely thinking I'll have the walls finished.  Still not sure whether to do a ceiling or just paint the joists black.  Will definitely look into the LED systems. 

I am guessing but I wouldn't be surprised if the building inspector made the contractor brace that triple beam because the electrician drilled a row of holes through it. That is like cutting a notch and definitely degraded the engineered beam. Drilling holes through the plywood webbing of engineered joists doesn't really change what they can carry.

Dan:

There could be something to that, as the other joists are all sister-boarded around the drilled holes.  Then again, the triple joist could still be enough.  Will have contractor evaluate when the time comes.  Thanks!

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

I am guessing but I wouldn't be surprised if the building inspector made the contractor brace that triple beam because the electrician drilled a row of holes through it. That is like cutting a notch and definitely degraded the engineered beam. Drilling holes through the plywood webbing of engineered joists doesn't really change what they can carry.

@Fridge56Vet posted:

Dan:

There could be something to that, as the other joists are all sister-boarded around the drilled holes.  Then again, the triple joist could still be enough.  Will have contractor evaluate when the time comes.  Thanks!

The concentration of the holes is the issue here. Had the EC spaced them further apart, then the joist's structural integrity would not have been compromised. I'm speculating of course, but when I wired houses for a living I was always careful where and how I drilled holes. Unfortunately, a lot of contractors don't think ahead to the results of their actions.
I don't know why he chose to go right down the middle either. One end or the other would have been better structurally.

I'm sure the GC wasn't happy with the EC if he had to add all of those braces across the entire basement.

And the pressure to get a sign off for the next draw from the bank would have added some pressure.

Fridge56Vet, your house is most likely very sound and it's not going to fall down. The knee walls are to keep the 2x6's from bowing which would reduce their effectiveness, but you could attach to them.

That's a better picture of what all took place, I didn't notice the plywood patches before. I'm sure they are adding some support but if you look close some of them are nailed on one side of a finger joint, and they don't really seem to address the sheer point created by the holes. I would think the better way would have been to pull the wires, nail patches across the wholes, then re-drill and run the wires. And there is probably sub-flooring nailed from the top which also adds support.

These are my opinions, I am not a master carpenter.

So now that we have re-built your house on paper you can get on with your layout!

Dan:

Yeah, I didn't notice them myself until last week.  The boards are only on 1 side of the joist.  I'm going to semi-finish that part of the basement first, so I'll have a contractor look at it.  Worst case I could incorporate the knee wall, or a shorter version if needed, into the layout.  Would really love to not have the posts, though.  Thanks! 

- Neal

@Fridge56Vet (Neal) - Regarding compact switches for the freight yard, a similar issue came up when I was designing the interface from my Intermodal Yard to Engine Yard.  It seems the solution was custom O72 single slip switches.  I did decide that I'm not ready to tackle this sort of thing in the physical realm just yet, so those plans will have to collect some dust.

Anthony

Your electrician compromised the I-joist by drilling his holes in the bottom half of the beam.  Code calls for the holes to be along the center-line and spaced a minimum of 6" apart.  The stress is a minimum on the centerline.  The plates were added to restore the beams integrity.

If you go online, search for I-joists/wood beam specs.  There will be tables on size vs span vs load that you can reference.  It looks like that beam has had two layers of 1" plywood sister to it for additional strength while the rest of the I-joist have just a piece of 1/2"  chip board; must less strength.  I expect that there is a load bearing wall just above it.

Try and work your trackplan around the posts.  If that won't work then contact a structural engineer.  Options may include a rearrangement of post(s).

Jan

This was a really helpful set of posts for me, as I plan for my own new layout. The importance of adequate dehumification can’t be overstated. I’ve been running a dehumidify set to maintain 50% humidity for decades, in a basement with no moisture problems. I’ve nevertheless found rust on the electrical contacts and other thin metal parts of Lionel post war equipment. I guess the question is: how many dehumidifiers do I need to run in a 19x 27 foot room?

Ialso like to weigh in the the grade issue: magnatraction Lionel could handle a 6% grade but outside of geared locos like Shays, not much in the prototype could handle than 1 1/2 to 2 percent and even one percent was considered steep. If you go much sharper, you need to start worrying about vertical transitions, especially where the grade meets a curve. The lower the rate of incline, the greater the reliability of operation on the railroad. Ditto for broader curves. The broader the better.
i

Im still trying to figure out my lighting. It seems like three rows 3000k LEDS SPACED EVERY SIX FEET and on a dimmer for each row should work, but I’m eager for feedback.