New Layout

Welcome back. Sorry about your dad.

Can you share a layout of the room? Where are windows, doors, utilities etc.? From what you and your dad had, I'm sure you can come up with a good plan.

The 14' width will allow for 072 curves with good distance for straight runs.

Bob

                    The red area is a circuit breaker panel mounted in the wall. I don’t have the exact dimensions until I able to get into the house.

Bob is right, you will have room for 072 curves and even larger, so the inner track of the double track could be 072.  You should have room for reversing loops and the rest.  The only software I am familiar with is SCARM which I believe doesn't operate on Macs.  I'm hoping to keep your topic going and get exposure to others who have better abilities than my own for designing a layout.  I wouldn't have a layout with half the capabilities I have now if it wasn't for Forum members who gave me designs and advice!

Congratulations on your upcoming retirement!  When will you be moving into the house?

This is a fantastic room in which you can have a great layout. Layout design is all about your priorities. Personally, I hate reversing loops, but your space is well suited to a walk-around layout with them. The area to the right of the door could have 3 track levels: two single-track return loops to double track mains with a double-track "horseshoe curve" on top. To the left of the door, two double track main loops would be interleaved. In between, your double track main would traverse the remaining U-space four times for a long mainline run. Plenty of room for a big yard on the long wall, and if the engine facility won't fit there, put it on the wall with the door.

If you can engage a son or grandson or two, even better.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Bob is right, you will have room for 072 curves and even larger, so the inner track of the double track could be 072.  You should have room for reversing loops and the rest.  The only software I am familiar with is SCARM which I believe doesn't operate on Macs.  I'm hoping to keep your topic going and get exposure to others who have better abilities than my own for designing a layout.  I wouldn't have a layout with half the capabilities I have now if it wasn't for Forum members who gave me designs and advice!

Congratulations on your upcoming retirement!  When will you be moving into the house?

Thanks for the advice I am planning on moving in the spring. I definitely would give up the reversing loop for more realistic operations.

What is that on the right wall below the door? A shelf of some sort?

Was your dad’s layout around the room? Are you open to a round the room design or do you prefer tabletop type design?

@DoubleDAZ posted:

What is that on the right wall below the door? A shelf of some sort?

Was your dad’s layout around the room? Are you open to a round the room design or do you prefer tabletop type design?

First of all I thank you for your service. I am open to whatever gives me the most space for trains. And yes that is a shelf which can and probably will be removed. Here is a photo of part of the layout me and my dad used to have. This is only 1/2 of the layout.

Railmodeller Pro is track software that will work on MacBooks and IMac computers

It doesn’t sound like you’re inter3sted in learning software, but there is RailModeler Pro for the Mac.

I’m not very good at identifying track, so it that GarGraves with Ross switches?

it also looks like the runs are wider than 30”-36”, so how wide are you comfortable working with. How much access do you want to the electrical panel and windows? If you build an around the room design, you might need to limit the width to 30”-36” for access.

I don’t see doors in the upper right, so I assume access to those small rooms is from the outside.

What is the area I’ve marked in red? Any chance that might be removed?

@OG3RAIL posted:

                    The red area is a circuit breaker panel mounted in the wall. I don’t have the exact dimensions until I able to get into the house.

Unfortunately that panel couldn't be in a worse spot. The National Electrical Code calls for 36" clear space in front of a panel. If you can incorporate a lift out or lift up/ drop down,  section then fine. Otherwise it would have to be moved or you would have to work around it. Might kind of drive the design of an around the room plan with just a couple of main lines running past the panel. Gotta start someplace right?

Bob

I am definitely thinking about a lift out section in front of the electrical panel. The area that you marked in red is some old wooden shelving that will be removed. Definitely want an around the room layout I want to use as much space as possible. I was also thinking about a lift out section by the entrance door. I am not worried about access to the windows. I will take a look at the software that was suggested se if I can figure it out.

Ok, here's what I came up with as a start given that I didn't know exact dimensions of the rooms by the door and locations of the windows/electrical panel. Track is GarGraves with O-80 outer loop and O-72 inner loop. Ignore the Ross double/crossovers, they just helped keep track separation at 4.5". The benchwork at 30" deep, except for the peninsula where you c an reach from 3 sides. 

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Ok, here's what I came up with as a start given that I didn't know exact dimensions of the rooms by the door and locations of the windows/electrical panel. Track is GarGraves with O-80 outer loop and O-72 inner loop. Ignore the Ross double/crossovers, they just helped keep track separation at 4.5". The benchwork at 30" deep, except for the peninsula where you can reach from 3 sides.

I Like the concept do you think there will be room for a fright yard and some industries?

I added random spurs and a pass-thru yard of sorts. I also added a 6" rise along the top with 2.9% grades. I'm not very good at designing spurs, I can't read minds. Rather that cut individual tracks, I used a lot of GarGraves flex because GarGraves, by nature, requires cutting tracks either way.

Wow this is an awesome design. I really appreciate the time you took to do this. I was thinking about making the yard area even wider to accommodate more sidings. I  have close to 200 pcs. of rolling stock. I know there is no way to fit it all in this space but I have been spoiled with the layout me and my dad had.

It’s your layout, so while I limited the benchwork to 30”, I can make it as deep as you want it. I can also move the entry further to the right around the curve, but then you’d have a removable section with a lot of tracks on it in order to access the electrical panel. It all depends on how far you can reach and how willing you are to climb on the layout or use a step stool to fix things.

I’ve been doing this for quite a few years, so I’m pretty familiar with SCARM and it doesn’t take me long to put a design together. I also enjoy doing it, it relaxes me like computer programming once did, so don’t hesitate to ask for changes. If you want me to expand the benchwork in some or all places, just let me know.

I am used to reaching on my old layout so if the bench work was 60" that would not be a problem for me. I also used to have to climb on part of my old layout to clean the track twice a year. Plus, with the proto couplers I can do switching pretty much hands free. Also I would not be opposed to making a larger lift out buy the electrical panel

.

I’ll work on that, just not tonight. 😜 I noticed you had wide benchwork and a fairly narrow aisle, so that’s totally your call.

A 36”x60” panel is going to be tough to lift, so you might consider a roll-our wedge where the side against the wall is 36”, but the front is something like 40”.

I really appreciate it!

@DoubleDAZ posted:

I’ll work on that, just not tonight. 😜 I noticed you had wide benchwork and a fairly narrow aisle, so that’s totally your call.

A 36”x60” panel is going to be tough to lift, so you might consider a roll-our wedge where the side against the wall is 36”, but the front is something like 40”.

Di you think if adding a level would allow me to have a larger yard? Also wanted to let you know that my old layout was mostly all Gargraves flex track so I'm a very familiar with cutting track. I use a Dremel tool for that

But, are the switches in your photo Ross or GarGraves? I assumed they were Ross, so that’s what I used in the design, but I guess I should ask what switches you have before I go much further with Ross #4s, #11s, O-72s, etc.

Looking at your photo, I can barely see what appears to be a mainline in the upper left that goes around the left side on the other side of the tall silver cars. The rest of the layout on both sides of the photo appear to be yards. I can’t tell if the tracks on the left deadhead in the lower left, but the ones on the right appear to deadhead at the top of the photo. I also can’t tell if those are numbered switches or standard switches, like O-72? Since you have a large inventory, I assume you’d like to use what you have vs buying new.

I noticed the 2nd level on the right side of the photo, but can’t tell how much higher it is, maybe 7”-8”, or where the grade up to it starts, assuming there is a grade going up and it’s not a standalone separate level. I can try to replicate the style of the track in the photo, but the entry door and electrical panel are obstacles you didn’t have in the layout you had. I’ll expand the benchwork to see what 60” would look like before I work on adding track. It’s obvious from the photo that you’re comfortable with covering up a large part of the layout with a 2nd level, but the climb to 6” is 2.9% in the sample design, so I’m not sure what grade will be needed and what you’ll be comfortable with in the smaller space.

@OG3RAIL posted:

Di you think if adding a level would allow me to have a larger yard? Also wanted to let you know that my old layout was mostly all Gargraves flex track so I'm a very familiar with cutting track. I use a Dremel tool for that

Hidden storage under the layout may be an option.

I have many gargraves 100” turnouts and 42” also. Under the table storage like a staging yard would be nice too.

@OG3RAIL posted:

I have many gargraves 100” turnouts and 42” also. Under the table storage like a staging yard would be nice too.

Ok, so I’ll use those and not the Ross switches that are in the current design.

As far as hidden storage, I can add just about anything, but you’ve got to give me more info. If I expand some or all of the benchwork to 60”, how are you going to reach hidden storage? Do you want the hidden level to be 60” wide too and filled with storage tracks? If I add a 2nd level, how wide do you want it? How much separation do you want between the levels? In your photos the 2nd level on the right looks to be about half as wide as the main level. There aren’t any standards for me to go by, so you have to give me at least some idea, like how much separation you want between levels, how big of a grade between levels your equipment can handle, etc. Since you have O-42 switches, does all your equipment handle them? Can they be used anywhere? If I expand the benchwork, how are you going to access the electrical panel? Especially if there are 3 levels there?

@OG3RAIL believe Dave when he says he likes designing layouts.  He spent as much time with me as he did with anyone. 

I like Bob's suggestion of under layout storage, as you said you do as well.  Now is the time to do it, as for me it was an afterthought.  We squeezed in a few tracks, but it turned out they are on the layout table.  I now have an upper level that is becoming the main scenic level; or will be I should say.

I've got two drop leaves on my layout to provide access to different parts of the basement.  The drop leaves are 10" x 38" (1" x 10" quality board).  This is a size that's easy to handle.

I only used the O42 switches in parts of the yard where I used 4 axle engines. As far as height between levels if there was an upper level high enough so that a Lionel scale tri-level autorack would fit under it. Lower level I assume would have to have more space to access it. As far as width goes I would like I said to use as much space as possible within reason so that it would be accessible for cleaning and if there was a derailment. I trust your judgment. As far as the electrical panel goes if there was just a single track leading to the storage yard I could also build a lift out for either a lower or upper level.

Having a lower level staging yard means grades.   Trestle set grades are 5%; that means a run of 14' to get 7" vertical clearance.  And you're going to have curves at the foot and the top of the grade.  Top isn't much of an issue, but foot is.  It's easy to go off the track at the foot of the grade.  Had that happen on my old layout.  Put foam core at the foot of the grade so engines wouldn't plunge to the floor.

John Armstrong (track planning guru) had something called "givens and druthers", which were ground rules for track planning.  Both limitations and interests.  Examples from my layout:

1. Want double track main line.
2. Inward opening door.
3. Visitors with limited ability to duck under.
4. Largest locomotive is a Reading 4-8-4.
5. Need to handle 9 car passenger trains.
6. Need to handle equipment that is incompatible with Lionel, MTH, Ross, etc. switches like Marx engines with the gear extending to the rim of the wheel.

@cbq9911a posted:

Having a lower level staging yard means grades.   Trestle set grades are 5%; that means a run of 14' to get 7" vertical clearance.  And you're going to have curves at the foot and the top of the grade.  Top isn't much of an issue, but foot is.  It's easy to go off the track at the foot of the grade.  Had that happen on my old layout.  Put foam core at the foot of the grade so engines wouldn't plunge to the floor.

definitely would not want that to happen

Here's an example to show what 60" benchwork would look like and the problems I'm running into trying to design a yard with GarGraves O-100 switches given the limitation of the access area for the electrical panel as well as the entry door. It will be the same with the design of the hidden storage yard. It gets more complicated to add grades up to a 2nd level and down to a hidden yard. That will get more complicated when you tell me how much separation you want between levels. I tried finding the height of the tri-level hauler and couldn't find it. Even if I could have, I still need to know how much room you need for access. As someone said, it's takes 14' to go up or down 7" and that's with a 5% grade. I expect it'll take a full run around the layout to clear the hauler and that will mean 2 lift out panels with 3 levels of track. It will also require shrinking the dual mains to provide clearance for the grade tracks.
EDIT: I just did a test and it only takes from the beginning of the curve in the upper right to the end of the curve in the upper left to rise or lower 14" with a 4% grade. The question then becomes how high/low you want the levels and how many cars your engines can pull. It also means shrinking the dual mains to make space for the grade tracks.

Here's more food for thought. Levels are 14" apart. Sample only.

More food for thought to show what 3 levels would look like. Sample only.

Definitely something to think about. I’m not locked into O-100 switches. I can use what ever makes sense. Also on pretty sure 12” clearance would be enough to fit a tri-level auto rack and double stack containers.

Okay, I played around some more today. I changed the O-100 switches to O-54 in the yards to make better use of the spaces. Be mindful that I'm not proposing this as a layout, I just wanted to fill the spaces to show how much track can fit. I also added some spurs and an double engine house. I even extended the storage on the lower lever across the entryway.

In this photo, the dark blue tracks are the upper level, the gray tracks are the lower level, the dark (2.9%) and light purple (3.0%) are the grades and the rest are the main level. The layout starts at 0" elevation with a 3/4" deck. From there it rises 12", adds another 3.4" deck, rises another 12" with yet another 3/4" deck making the track elevations .75", 13.5" and 25.25". that makes it 12" between the track and the next deck.

I like the ideas here. Thanks for taking the time to do this for me. This is a great forum everyone is so helpful.

Glad to help.