New Legacy Diesel has low smoke output

it has a very odd funnel to the smoke unit if i recall,  my 2 i tilt the back of the engine up so the fluid goes to smoke unit, try downloading the app & you can adjust smoke output

@tom21pa posted:

it has a very odd funnel to the smoke unit if i recall,  my 2 i tilt the back of the engine up so the fluid goes to smoke unit, try downloading the app & you can adjust smoke output

OK.  Tilting definitely helped.

I don't see anything that suggests that the smoke is variable on the app?   Do you need a legacy base for that to appear?

Thanks,

John

I thought there was an adjustment on the app but I'm wrong.

You need the base to adjust smoke output but it sounds like to me you do not have enough fluid in it. 15 drops is not enough for a newer fan driven smoke unit. I would add 10 more drops and see what you got. I do recall a past thread about these being difficult to get the fluid to the right place. My experience with my Legacy locomotives is the smoke seems to be defaulted to high. Mine smoke like my MTH locomotives. I am not using a base either. Just the app or universal remote.

Brad

Well,

I gave the Legacy engine to my grandson for Christmas and we ran it on the Legacy Cab 3 I bought.  He loved it, but the first thing he noticed was the low smoke output.  We added fluid, but it seemed like the fan motor wasn't turning.

After he went home I took it apart and discovered that the rectangular funnel that carries the fluid to the smoke unit is at an angle and not parallel to the roof of the shell.

So I worked the funnel back and forth and removed it to get to the heating element and the fan motor (which is under the middle of the funnel.  The fan was stuck and I was able to move it to free it up and I also fluffed up the wick under the heating element.

I tried to find a way to glue the funnel back on the smoke unit differently, but I didn't see that that would work.

I looked like it was glued correctly so I glued it on the same way I found it.

With the rectangular gasket in place between the roof and the top of the funnel there is still a space.  It causes the smoke to come out in several other locations.

Seems like a bad design.  Has anyone run into this and found a workaround?  I hate to send it back or to Lionel because I have read other complaints about low smoke output with the GP30 and it seems like I'll just end up with another one with the same issue.  I would rather fix it myself.

Thanks,

John

Obviously, you need to have the smoke funnel mated with the stack opening without a gap.  I'd put a shim block right here that is the correct thickness to align the funnel properly and seat it on the shell stack opening.  It won't be the first time that a lousy design has had to be "adjusted".

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Obviously, you need to have the smoke funnel mated with the stack opening without a gap.  I'd put a shim block right here that is the correct thickness to align the funnel properly and seat it on the shell stack opening.  It won't be the first time that a lousy design has had to be "adjusted".

Thanks for the suggestion John.  I just looked up the funnel part on the Lionel website.  Guess what it looks like?

Needless to say, the leveling block is missing from the bottom of mine. 

John

@Craftech posted:

Thanks for the suggestion John.  I just looked up the funnel part on the Lionel website.  Guess what it looks like?

Needless to say, the leveling block is missing from the bottom of mine. 

John

Look at that, Lionel heard me.   It sure did look like it should have one of those.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Look at that, Lionel heard me.   It sure did look like it should have one of those.

You were right.  I contacted Lionel via email along with a bunch of photos and asked them if they would send me the funnel under the warranty since there is a 6-8 week turnaround on repairs and sending me the part would be cheaper on both ends.  Haven't heard back yet, but if they say no I will order the part myself.

Meanwhile I probably should NOT have super glued it back on because there was no way to get it off but to break it at the inlet (You can't get under it to use a solvent when attached).

So I know acetone dissolves cyanoacrylate glue.  Do you think it will harm the circuit board if I apply it to loosen up the broken piece.  See photos:

Thanks as always,

John

I'd probably carefully trim it carefully, I think you can flake it off with less risk.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd probably carefully trim it carefully, I think you can flake it off with less risk.

My scalpel was able trim the bottom, but the inside is spread out over circuit traces so I used a succession of increasing size drill bits that I hand twisted up though the bottom.

Unfortunately I should have unsoldered the wirewound resistor/heater element first.  There is a wire loose at one end probably poked by the tip of the drill bit.  Do you know a suitable replacement for that which I could order?  I'll remove it and add a photo (You can see which type in the photo above)

Thanks,

John

I use the Yageo SQP500JB-8R2.  I put it diagonally in a vise and crack the outside ceramic shell off.  Inside is a perfect 2W 8 ohm smoke resistor.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I use the Yageo SQP500JB-8R2.  I put it diagonally in a vise and crack the outside ceramic shell off.  Inside is a perfect 2W 8 ohm smoke resistor.

Great.  I'll get a supply of those to keep in my stash,

Is this a trace that was destroyed when I removed the remnants of the funnel?

Thanks,

John

That's not a trace, that's just a silkscreen that shows the position of the smoke resistor.  I think you can figure out where it goes without the complete outline.

The traces to everything are apparently on the top, that's normal for most smoke units.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

That's not a trace, that's just a silkscreen that shows the position of the smoke resistor.  I think you can figure out where it goes without the complete outline.

The traces to everything are apparently on the top, that's normal for most smoke units.

Thanks again,

Fun stuff (despite the fact that it's a brand new engine).

John

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I use the Yageo SQP500JB-8R2.  I put it diagonally in a vise and crack the outside ceramic shell off.  Inside is a perfect 2W 8 ohm smoke resistor.

I ordered a bunch of those.  Seemed like a higher soldering iron temp was needed when I removed the one on the smoke unit.  Is 60/40 sufficient or should I use silver bearing solder when they arrive?

Thanks,

John

I've been using standard 63/37 rosin core solder for years, never had any issues.  I believe they do use a higher temperature solder, but I suspect it's because it's lead-free.  I hate that crap for hand soldering as it's harder to work with.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've been using standard 63/37 rosin core solder for years, never had any issues.  I believe they do use a higher temperature solder, but I suspect it's because it's lead-free.  I hate that crap for hand soldering as it's harder to work with.

OK.  Thanks for that.

Happy New Year

John

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've been using standard 63/37 rosin core solder for years, never had any issues.  I believe they do use a higher temperature solder, but I suspect it's because it's lead-free.  I hate that crap for hand soldering as it's harder to work with.

John, What diameter solder to you use?

@Jayhawk500 posted:

John, What diameter solder to you use?

For general soldering, I use the .031 solder, for PCB work I typically use the .020 solder.  Both sizes are Kester rosin core brand.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

For general soldering, I use the .031 solder, for PCB work I typically use the .020 solder.  Both sizes are Kester rosin core brand.

Great, Thank you.

Well the Yageo SQP500JB-8R2 seemed to work well as a replacement smoke element.  I now have a few spares for the future.  Seem pretty rugged compared to original.

The smoke funnel on the other hand is another story.

I sent Lionel photos of the funnel on mine and the parts catalogue funnel that shows a leveling block missing from mine and they issued a replacement funnel under the warranty.  It arrived today.

Right part number.  Wrong contents.  (Is that a lamp?)  It's supposed to look like this:

So I emailed all the details and spoke with a CSR and they said they would try and straighten it out on Monday.  Hopefully they actually have the right part because the original is destroyed.

John

I've gotten totally wrong parts with the ordered part number a few times from Lionel, it happens.

Same problem with the AEC set GP-9 A&B units. The Smoke fluid does not get down the lousy funnels to get to the heating element. The funnels overflow without letting any fluid drop down to the heating elements. There is an access hatch over them. I removed it and the A unit funnel was loose and came right off. The B unit was glued on with a non super type glue and came off. The fitting of the funnels that mates to the heating chamber opening is very crude and rough like they are relying on the glue to make some sort of gasket. The smoke chambers were dry. I blew through the funnels and air went through. Why not fluid? I dropped fluid directly into the chambers and pressed on the funnels and they smoked for a while. Tried again to add flud through the funnels and no luck. I am very disappointed with this set for many reasons and do not reccomend it.

@Dave 69 GTEL posted:

Same problem with the AEC set GP-9 A&B units. The Smoke fluid does not get down the lousy funnel to get to the heating element. The funnels overflow without letting any fluid drop down to the heating elements. There is an access hatch over them. I removed it and the A unit funnel was loose and came right off. The B unit was glued on with a non super type glue and came off. The fitting of the funnels the mates to the heating chamber openeing is very crude and rough like they are relying on the glue to make some sort of gasket. The smoke chambers were dry. I blew through the funnels and air went through. Why not fluid? I dropped fluid directly into the chambers and pressed on the funnels and they smoked for a while. Tried again to add flud through the funnels and no luck. I am very disappointed with this set for many reasons and do not reccomend it.

Tom21pa suggested tilting up the back of the engine so it runs down the chute into the smoke chamber.

In my case, UPS is delivering the replacement smoke funnel for the replacement smoke funnel that was packaged wrong (see photo above).  I will be happy if it is at least like the original (missing the leveling block).  I'll add my own and be done with it.  I'll post back after UPS  arrives today.

John

Yep, if you have the right funnel, the block should be pretty easy.

As I suspected, the replacement funnel does not have a leveling block as illustrated on the Lionel Parts diagram shown above.  That's why these units don't smoke properly.

It's pretty easy to add a leveling block so I will do that.  I think I will avoid any glue where the small funnel spout enters the smoke unit as was there before.  With the leveling block and a fairly snug fit it should be fine and can be easily removed for service.

Thanks,

John

@Craftech posted:

I think I will avoid any glue where the small funnel spout enters the smoke unit as was there before.  With the leveling block and a fairly snug fit it should be fine and can be easily removed for service.

I'm with you there, I never put the stack on permanently unless there's no other way.  If you have the right size leveling block, it should just sit there sandwiched between the shell and the smoke unit.  You might need a gasket at the stack opening, I make mine from sticky back rubber sheet I got from Michaels' Hobbies.