New MTH CP Christmas Stage Boxcar Up in Smoke

Update- Great customer service from Charles Ro who sent me a prepaid return shipping label and will try to fix it for me.

Better than trying to rewire it myself. 

These are apparently very tough to find. 

Hope they can repair yours.  One of my CP holiday LED cars from last Christmas  had to go back due to a faulty diode. LEDs lit for 1 second then went out.

I was also excited to finally receive my MTH Rail King Canadian Pacific Holiday boxcars on Friday. I ordered them last year along with engine and the CP engine arrived last fall, but no cars. Charles Ro indicated that they sold out of the cars, but held the order until the next shipment arrived.

I just put car 30-7094A on the track to test along with a post war steamer powered by a Lionel CW-80. The lights were fine for a couple of minutes, then glowed brighter for a second. The blue and green LED lights stopped working, but the red and yellow lights are continue to work. I am now afraid to test the remaining three cars.

I will call Charles Ro on Monday for a replacement. Are these cars are compatible with Lionel power supplies?

Thanks!

Only about half of these cars came in - more on the water and expected shortly.... 

Bmurphy20 posted:

I was also excited to finally receive my MTH Rail King Canadian Pacific Holiday boxcars on Friday. I ordered them last year along with engine and the CP engine arrived last fall, but no cars. Charles Ro indicated that they sold out of the cars, but held the order until the next shipment arrived.

I just put car 30-7094A on the track to test along with a post war steamer powered by a Lionel CW-80. The lights were fine for a couple of minutes, then glowed brighter for a second. The blue and green LED lights stopped working, but the red and yellow lights are continue to work. I am now afraid to test the remaining three cars.

I will call Charles Ro on Monday for a replacement. Are these cars are compatible with Lionel power supplies?

Thanks!

I'm wondering about a possible reason for your car's failure, Bill. Were you running that engine in conventional mode using the CW-80? I'm asking because Trainland's Kenn Jr. mentioned in another thread that 18 volts is optimal for powering these boxcars. So, if you were running in conventional mode, maybe that car worked fine while the engine was powered at less than 18 volts but when the engine's speed and the accompanying voltage was increased beyond 18 volts, that's when the LEDs suddenly brightened and went out? If that's what possibly happened, through no fault of yourself, Bill, then perhaps it would be advisable for MTH to publish a cautionary warning that their LED equipped rolling stock have a risk, however so slight, of being damaged if the track voltage should exceed 18 volts.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that 19-20 volts should affect a properly designed product that is designed to run on 18 volts.  If it does, it's NOT properly designed!  I believe the reference to 18 volts was simply because they were optimized for command operation, and lower voltage affect how bright the lights are.

As always, Gunrunnerjohn, thank you for clearing this up with your valued expertise.

Question on that MTH CP "Stage Door" Christmas car mentioned by the OP (20-93751). What exactly is it and what's inside the car? Does the door operate automatically or manually?

I have the 4-car LED lighted set from last year and was curious about this one.

Thanks.

https://www.facebook.com/acces...eos/751402188269230/

If you want to see how the original looked during the final appearance in Pennsylvania, (2014) this video gives a good view.  The location is Nicholson, PA, and the train is on the Tunkhannock Viaduct. This was the one and only time the performance took place on the bridge. 

Tim O'Malley posted:

https://www.facebook.com/acces...eos/751402188269230/

If you want to see how the original looked during the final appearance in Pennsylvania, (2014) this video gives a good view.  The location is Nicholson, PA, and the train is on the Tunkhannock Viaduct. This was the one and only time the performance took place on the bridge. 

Thanks, much appreciated.

It would be a bit of work to make this one look like the original!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

It would be a bit of work to make this one look like the original!

Agreed, John.

I think I may pass on this one now that I've seen it. I've got the CP 4-car box car set from last year and I'm very happy with them. Can take the $$ I'd spend on this and pick up a couple of those North Pole flats with the LEDs.  Really like those!

johnstrains posted:

Question on that MTH CP "Stage Door" Christmas car mentioned by the OP (20-93751). What exactly is it and what's inside the car? Does the door operate automatically or manually?

I have the 4-car LED lighted set from last year and was curious about this one.

Thanks.

I saw this car at Trainfest last weekend. MTH had it in their booth. Almost the entire side of the box car flipped down and created a ramp. There was nothing on the inside. 

bigtruckpete posted:

 There was nothing on the inside. 

Which is where MTH missed the boat...er...train!

Bmurphy20 posted:

I was also excited to finally receive my MTH Rail King Canadian Pacific Holiday boxcars on Friday. I ordered them last year along with engine and the CP engine arrived last fall, but no cars. Charles Ro indicated that they sold out of the cars, but held the order until the next shipment arrived.

I just put car 30-7094A on the track to test along with a post war steamer powered by a Lionel CW-80. The lights were fine for a couple of minutes, then glowed brighter for a second. The blue and green LED lights stopped working, but the red and yellow lights are continue to work. I am now afraid to test the remaining three cars.

I will call Charles Ro on Monday for a replacement. Are these cars are compatible with Lionel power supplies?

Thanks!

Update - I called Charles Ro today, and they asked me to ship the car back to them for repair or replacement. I shipped it back this afternoon, though no offer was made for a prepaid shipping label.

I bought the MTH 30-7094 set and out of the box, one of the cars was strobing between normal and magnesium white intensity and was emitting smoke from the tiny circuit board. Immediately called Charles Ro and the representative surprised me by asking if they just spoke to me about this issue - No, they had not... this is my first time calling in. A return label is on the way. I was advised to "burn in" the remaining cars...

Just curious what the resolution was for the cars with lighting issues? I paid to ship the first car back to Charles Ro, and then a second car failed (tested with a Lionel power brick/TMCC). Last week, Charles Ro indicated that they will email me a return label for the second car. Since I didn’t receive a label, I called back today. Charles Ro is trying to get MTH involved to replace the entire 30-7094 set as they cannot repair the defective cars.

WOW this is scary. My daughter just bought the 4 car set and railking engine and we are running it at my house. I just got a note that the Stage door box car was being shipped to me today from Pat's trains. We are running in conventional with a small MTH transformer. The announcement feature is perfect with a french Canadian accent.

I received my MTH 20-93751 in January of this year.  However, I haven't run it until now as by the time I received mine, I'd already pulled the Xmas train items down from the layout.  I placed it on the track with the 4 car CP box set and it worked great, for about a minute and a half. 

From the smell, I'm guessing a fuse blew or maybe a wire burned up?  From visually inspecting it, it doesn't look like any bulbs are burnt out and the wire looks ok.  Does anybody know if these things have fuses?

I'm running a DCS setup with the CP Xmas matching locomotive.  All else is running fine.  This was the only car that burnt up....

The solder pads on the PCB are too close together.  The PCB is either repaired or replaced at MTH.  Not all cars have this problem. It depends on how much solder was added to the pad.

Oh... thought someone had come out with a Cheech and Chong boxcar...…..

Jesse

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I SERIOUSLY doubt that 19-20 volts should affect a properly designed product that is designed to run on 18 volts.  If it does, it's NOT properly designed!  I believe the reference to 18 volts was simply because they were optimized for command operation, and lower voltage affect how bright the lights are.

GRJ,  did they ever figure out why these cars fail. Mine just failed magic smoke and all.  it was running fine for a month until I raised the voltage to full throttle.

I opened up my boxcar and found the damaged board.  Very small.   There is a bridge rectifier made of  4 discrete diodes.    Looks like the bridge rectifier output goes to the a three lead power device which feeds the LEDs.   One track feed wire is now floating and it looks like it was connected to the bridge rectifier ?  The PC board is severely burnt at one end of the resistor.  The power device is heat sinked to the car chassis

Anyone know the P/N for the PC assembly ?

Pictures of the board would help, but it sounds like a typical fixed voltage DC power supply.  The power device is probably a three-terminal fixed voltage regulator, a picture of the lettering on that part would probably tell the tale.

I like the MTH lighted cars and CP holiday train. But I had already started building my own when it was announced a few years back.  It can be fairly easy to install more lights to your train and create an animated stage. Here are photos of my fully lit train;

Posted about a 1/4 of the way down the page.

https://ogrforum.com/...8#153322190088953348

For the operating stage you can paint up some figures as I have had done. You can might want to try one of the Lemax animated small displays to animate your stage. For mine I picked it up at Walmart many years back when you push a button it spins around and my figures move around. The music comes on and it plays one of several carols and the LED's light the stage. I just cut out my Weaver box car to allow my stage to slide into the middle. Lemax also has some small animated sets with figures that move back and forth rather then around.

You might want to check out Miller Engineering for EL light sheets that you can use to create lighted images such as are on the real Canadian Pacific Holiday train. I copied my images from the real train for the design of the lighted trees, candy canes and other images copied from photos of the real train. I lighted the words on the side of the train with etched plexiglass with LED red lights shining in the ends to light the name "Canadian Pacific Holiday Train" but you could use the EL light sheets.

https://www.microstru.com/Experimenter-Kits.html

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Pictures of the board would help, but it sounds like a typical fixed voltage DC power supply.  The power device is probably a three-terminal fixed voltage regulator, a picture of the lettering on that part would probably tell the tale.

GRJ - Thanks for the suggestions.  I'll have to remove the PC board to be able to see the device P/N.   For the moment lets assume it's a regulator being used in the constant current mode.  That puts a resistor in series with regulator's output and the LED load.   The resistor then has two functions: providing feedback tot he regulator and a series voltage drop to the LEDs.

I need to determine if the LEDs are still functional.   The LEDs need a dropping resistor for testing.   Any idea on what size resistor for testing ?  Maybe 1K to start with a 12 VDC supply ?  I wonder how these LEDs are wired: series or parallel ?

If the regulator shorted out, the full wave DC would be applied to through the resistor to the LEDs.  So LED forward voltage/current would be determined by the resistor size in part.

Another thought.  The common wire (black) from the tracks I presume (I haven't traced it yet) is detached.  The red wire from the roller pickups (need to trace that too) is attached.  These are the inputs to bridge rectifier.  There are huge blobs of solder on the PC pads which attach these input wires.  It appears the input wires are "tacked" to the blobs during manufacturing, hence the blobs.   There appears to be little to no solder on the bare black wire lead.  There may be a barely discernable groove in one blob where the black lead might have been attached.   

My point here is to determine where all the current flowed and why based on damage assessment.

@kj356 posted:

I like the MTH lighted cars and CP holiday train. But I had already started building my own when it was announced a few years back.  It can be fairly easy to install more lights to your train and create an animated stage. Here are photos of my fully lit train;

Posted about a 1/4 of the way down the page.

https://ogrforum.com/...8#153322190088953348

For the operating stage you can paint up some figures as I have had done. You can might want to try one of the Lemax animated small displays to animate your stage. For mine I picked it up at Walmart many years back when you push a button it spins around and my figures move around. The music comes on and it plays one of several carols and the LED's light the stage. I just cut out my Weaver box car to allow my stage to slide into the middle. Lemax also has some small animated sets with figures that move back and forth rather then around.

You might want to check out Miller Engineering for EL light sheets that you can use to create lighted images such as are on the real Canadian Pacific Holiday train. I copied my images from the real train for the design of the lighted trees, candy canes and other images copied from photos of the real train. I lighted the words on the side of the train with etched plexiglass with LED red lights shining in the ends to light the name "Canadian Pacific Holiday Train" but you could use the EL light sheets.

https://www.microstru.com/Experimenter-Kits.html

Thanks for all your ideas.  I've actually had the car since they were first issued but never had it out of the box.  My plan was to park it on a siding and create a scene similar to what you have done.  I finally placed it on the track as part of the CP Christmas train to see how it would blend with the smaller CP Christmas boxcars.   I was OK with the size difference.  I placed it just behind the engine so it would blend well.  I ran it for about a month and everything was fine.

I'm presently creating my version of Mr Roger's Trolley using a MTH Bump & Go as the motive force.  The MTH trolleys use both AC and DC for lighting.  The trolley uses contact springs to transfer power to the lighting in the shell.  I wanted to determine the maximum AC and DC voltage output in order to size new lighting components.   So I cranked up the ZW transformer to maximum and measured both the AC and DC voltages as just below 20 volts.  At the same time I began to get the smell and noticed the magic smoke.  I can only conclude the car didn't like the max voltage ?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Pictures of the board would help, but it sounds like a typical fixed voltage DC power supply.  The power device is probably a three-terminal fixed voltage regulator, a picture of the lettering on that part would probably tell the tale.

GRJ - Attached are photo's of the board.  The IC is a 7806A voltage regulator.   I'm guessing it's a 6 volt regulator used in a constant current mode.   The board damage is in the area of the regulator input and the bridge output, plus side.

On a relook, nearest I can tell the regulator center pin is connected to ground.  The resister appears to be in series between the regulator output and the LED connectors.

So, the regulator outputs 6 VDC and resistor is the LED dropping resistor ?  So how are the LED's interconnected, in parallel ?

The LED's are obviously in parallel if there's more than two of them.  That's a fixed regulator, so it was indeed putting out 6V until the fire.  What's the colors of the bands on the resistor?  It looks like a fairly hefty resistor.  If you have a multi-meter, measure the resistance of that resistor.

These boards have a problem where the solder pads on the voltage regulator are too close together and short.  Usually the LEDs are OK (I just repaired two in the last week); test them with a 9v battery and 220 ohm resistor.  Direct replacement boards are not available, but we use the 6v lighting kit for dummy A-Units, remove the jumpers, cut a trace and move the resistor over from the bad board. Part number AG-0000016.  You must have about 100 ohms between the volt reg output and the connector for the LEDs, or you didn't cut the trace on the board and will burn up the LEDs.

@Tim O'Malley posted:

https://www.facebook.com/acces...eos/751402188269230/

If you want to see how the original looked during the final appearance in Pennsylvania, (2014) this video gives a good view.  The location is Nicholson, PA, and the train is on the Tunkhannock Viaduct. This was the one and only time the performance took place on the bridge.

Thanks for the link as I've never seen the prototype and always thought there must have been diaphragms that connect the stage car to the passenger cars but apparently not.

@Jon G posted:

These boards have a problem where the solder pads on the voltage regulator are too close together and short.  Usually the LEDs are OK (I just repaired two in the last week); test them with a 9v battery and 220 ohm resistor.  Direct replacement boards are not available, but we use the 6v lighting kit for dummy A-Units, remove the jumpers, cut a trace and move the resistor over from the bad board. Part number AG-0000016.  You must have about 100 ohms between the volt reg output and the connector for the LEDs, or you didn't cut the trace on the board and will burn up the LEDs.

Jon - Thanks for the response.  Very helpful.  I’ll have to give the LEDs a test.  They look OK.  The LED dropping resistor is 100 ohms.  I talked to Midge at MTH today and ordered a new board.   Seems like the same board based on the detailed description she read to me.  I’ll check it out before installing although Midge said it had the 100 ohm resister onboard.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The LED's are obviously in parallel if there's more than two of them.  That's a fixed regulator, so it was indeed putting out 6V until the fire.  What's the colors of the bands on the resistor?  It looks like a fairly hefty resistor.  If you have a multi-meter, measure the resistance of that resistor.

GRJ - Thanks for your response.  It’s a 100 ohm resistor, looks like 1 watt.  I was able to order a new board from Midge.  Pretty shoddy workmanship on the board.  I saw a number of places for potential shorts.

@Jon G posted:

These boards have a problem where the solder pads on the voltage regulator are too close together and short.  Usually the LEDs are OK (I just repaired two in the last week); test them with a 9v battery and 220 ohm resistor.  Direct replacement boards are not available, but we use the 6v lighting kit for dummy A-Units, remove the jumpers, cut a trace and move the resistor over from the bad board. Part number AG-0000016.  You must have about 100 ohms between the volt reg output and the connector for the LEDs, or you didn't cut the trace on the board and will burn up the LEDs.

So Jon....I have purchased the 60' streamlined railking passenger cars both the North Pole and the Christmas Express. These look amazing on the track. All seems fine now. Do I need to worry about losing the LED's after my warranty runs out? Are the issues with the boxcars also present in the railking passenger cars? Or are the passenger cars bulletproof?

I don't think any of the cars are "bulletproof" from any manufacturer!

Pretty sad for sure. Looks like the "B" team did the assembly on these boards, and no one bothered to spot QC check any of them to see if/how they were working. Just slap 'em together and get them on the boat. This is the kind of thing that can happen when there is no customer (MTH) inspection on site.

Rod

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I don't think any of the cars are "bulletproof" from any manufacturer!

I wonder what is unique about this particular car's PC board ?  A lot of folks had similar issues.  The PC circuit design and packaging for all the Christmas Boxcar with exterior LED strings must be similar.

I have the RailKing CP Christmas Boxcar Set with LEDs.  The set arrived with one LED String not working at all.   Traced the problem to a broken wiring in the LED string as it wraps around the shell and enters the interior at a corner underside.  This is a high stress area and obviously damage during assembly.   It was a tough spot to repair.   It didn't want to accept solder so I used a mechanical fix.

@Rod Stewart posted:

Pretty sad for sure. Looks like the "B" team did the assembly on these boards, and no one bothered to spot QC check any of them to see if/how they were working. Just slap 'em together and get them on the boat. This is the kind of thing that can happen when there is no customer (MTH) inspection on site.

Rod

A lot of folks had LED trouble with this car.   MTH made a Primer Christmas CP Boxcar set.   I would think the set would use the same PC board as the Stage Boxcar ?  I wonder if the Primer set also had issues ?

@Jon G posted:

These boards have a problem where the solder pads on the voltage regulator are too close together and short.  Usually the LEDs are OK (I just repaired two in the last week); test them with a 9v battery and 220 ohm resistor.  Direct replacement boards are not available, but we use the 6v lighting kit for dummy A-Units, remove the jumpers, cut a trace and move the resistor over from the bad board. Part number AG-0000016.  You must have about 100 ohms between the volt reg output and the connector for the LEDs, or you didn't cut the trace on the board and will burn up the LEDs.

I was investigating the A0000016 board.  Is this the 6v light kit for the dummy A-units you mention ?

A0000016 is offered on the MTH site as a substitute for similar boards no longer available including the Stage Boxcar.    The resistor is omitted and replaced by a jumper on this board.

Do your 100 ohm resistor. and cut the trace modifications apply to the A0000016?   What trace do I need to cut ?   What jumpers do I need to remove ?