New Water Heater... And I'm not happy

That's a long run for the exhaust.  Can't vent outside closer to the water heater?  Mine vents within feet of the water heater.

My mothers house had one exactly like that in her basement, the vent kept weeping condensation. Hopefully yours will not.

Mine is electric, no vent needed.

Contact the water heater company to check for the needed pipe size and run for your installation. 

Exhaust fans are rated to distance and pipe size.  Yours may or may not be satisfactory.

Is there not a shorter run that will satisfy required window spacing?

Hey, at least you have a basement.

I don't have a basement in California.

But I don't have any snow either.

Ron, is the concern having access to that vent tube for replacing it with a new one?

If so, certainly that tube needs to be cut for disassembly?    Simply going by what I can see in your picture, they could disconnect the vent tube riser  from the heater, then disconnect the right angle attachment that takes it across the room to the actual vent

Then disconnect it from the vent.  At this point you'd have just the long horizontal section above your layout.

Again, simply judging by your picture,it looks like there is access by what looks like a door and lift out section?    Put the ladder there, and cut the tube.   Remove the small section that now goes from there to the vent.

Then, slide/pull the tube along and cut off another section.  Keep doing this until all you're left with is a final short section.

Tube is now removed.

Do the opposite for replacement.  Start placing tube sections, then connect the next section, and push it towards the water heater, then another section, and push it further, until it lines up with where the riser from the heater is.   Connect that.

Now you just have the section that goes from where the cut and assembly work is being done over to the ceiling vent.

No need to stand on or risk breaking pieces of the layout below. Just cover it all with blankets or painter's tarps

Oh yeah one more thing:  If the tube needs some help not getting snagged on the ceiling tile frames, just have a long handle broom or painter's pole to push it over the wood, as the other person is pushing the tube towards the water heater.

There is always a way

Years ago I helped a friend with a similar situation.    I carefully cut and fitted multiple supports on top of his layout, then a 1x4 grid was attached with plywood on the top to cover everything.   The supports were fastened at select locations so there would be no damage to anything.   The guys that did his plumbing work were in and out fairly quickly and nothing was damaged. The only cleanup after taking it all down was setting the buildings back in place.   

@Ron045 posted:

So I thought I planned the layout well for eventual repair or replacement of the water heater and furnace.

Folks showed up to replace our 17 year old water heater.  No problem with access and removal.  Except the new water heater has a 3 inch vent pipe and the old one had a 2 inch vent pipe.  The blower does not like the smaller diameter pipe and the sensor keep shutting it down.

The good news is the fellas told me that was their error and it would not cost me any more for new pipe or labor to install.  The bad news is it runs along the wall and ceiling directly over the longest part of my layout.

Fortunately I made the ceiling very accessible and removable panels and lights (This is a good reason not to drywall your basement ceiling).  Most of my buildings and accessories were movable, but it would have been so much easier if I built everything in removable sections.

The one thing I really don't want to remove is my signal bridge.  I wired the darn thing years ago and could not even tell you how it works.  It's also half embedded is stone and landscape material.  I'm gonna roll the dice that it survives.  I'm expecting the landscaping to be damaged or a debris field.

Not having Fun

Ron

I see you have a blower on the water heater.  If you can get the volume (CFM) for the blower, we can see what the static (backpressure) is.  It is possible the blower can overcome the 2" discrepency in pipe size.

My profession for over 40 years has been in venting commercial dryers and some water heaters in the laundry industry.  When we get historical building which cannon have holes in the structure increased, we have taken care of the issue with blowers.  A thought.  The key is moving the requires amount of air at a basckpressure not to exceed a certain amount in w.c. (inches of water column).

More than one way to skin a cat...although, it appears that that ship has sailed.

Fantech makes dryer booster fans that may solve the problem without replacing the entire run. They are 4" nominal.

Just put a Rheem 50 gal electric in a few weeks ago, replacing my 20 yr old GE tank. Ditch the gas/oil and go electric.

@Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

I see you have a blower on the water heater.  If you can get the volume (CFM) for the blower, we can see what the static (backpressure) is.  It is possible the blower can overcome the 2" discrepency in pipe size.

My profession for over 40 years has been in venting commercial dryers and some water heaters in the laundry industry.  When we get historical building which cannon have holes in the structure increased, we have taken care of the issue with blowers.  A thought.  The key is moving the requires amount of air at a basckpressure not to exceed a certain amount in w.c. (inches of water column).

The larger fan HP may cancel out the savings of using a high efficiency water heater, not to mention the noise from pushing more air through a small pipe.

@PRRMP54 posted:

Mine is electric, no vent needed.

try that at $.17/ KWH

@RSJB18 posted:

The larger fan HP may cancel out the savings of using a high efficiency water heater, not to mention the noise from pushing more air through a small pipe.

try that at $.17/ KWH

It depends on the airflow.  If there is excessive restriction the system will not be as efficient.  As far as the high efficiency of the water heater, it will be compromised by high backpressure.  The question is how much utility increase is caused by the addition of a larger fan.  For example, a 2 hp blower draws 7.5 FLA at 208/60/3  If the HP is increased to 3 HP the FLA goes to about 10.6.  Not a big difference in the scheme of things.  Also, factor in how much time per hour the water heater is heating.  Probably less than one might think.

The benefit to the larger fan is that their is no need to modify his pipe running over the layout.  Condensation is not an issue since the ambient air is at a lower temperature than the exhaust.  If anything the hotter pipe would tend to dry the air.  Needless to say, there should be some backdraft protection (back draft damper) to keep cold air from migrating down the ductwork.

Another method may be to incorporate a VFD on the blower and regulate it by PID loop to maintain a static of about .12" w.c., or less, in which case the water heater exhaust will act as if there is no restriction.  Kind of expensive, but many ways to work this one.

You might also consider investing in a top-side creeper if they think they can work with that and get the job done. The cost may be worth it versus the alternative.

In addition, it may be of some practical use to you on your layout or you could try and sell it and recoup some of your investment.

RSJB18 is correct... The ship has sailed and these fellas are the professionals on the hook for the repair.  We really don't have any other options for a different run due to other "stuff in the way".

We did look into the other direction but we have a large patio and deck and they did not believe they could do it per code and also thought we would not like it when enjoying the outside.  So they had a potential easy way out and did not take it.  My hats off to them.  This 2 hour job has been an all day affair.

The new 3 inch pipe is in.  The unit is still cutting off.  Speculation now is a bad blower sensor, according to the manufacturer.  They just ran out to get the part and are coming back.

I do truly appreciate everyone inputs and thoughts.  Glad I did not take this project on myself.  I feel comfortable with electric.  Me and plumbing just don't get along. 

Ron

With a gas water heater in a basement ,with that long of a vent pipe to require a fan, I would sure to install two Carbon Monoxide detectors in the basement and two in the house above.  That thing can kill you.

Charlie

Seems like whenever I go to Home Depot there is always a returned water heater by front door. In Nevada our water is very hard and if you are a non believer in water softeners, you will replace you water heater, your refrigerator and washer way before their time. Sometimes a professional is best way

@Ron045 posted:

RSJB18 is correct... The ship has sailed and these fellas are the professionals on the hook for the repair.  We really don't have any other options for a different run due to other "stuff in the way".

We did look into the other direction but we have a large patio and deck and they did not believe they could do it per code and also thought we would not like it when enjoying the outside.  So they had a potential easy way out and did not take it.  My hats off to them.  This 2 hour job has been an all day affair.

The new 3 inch pipe is in.  The unit is still cutting off.  Speculation now is a bad blower sensor, according to the manufacturer.  They just ran out to get the part and are coming back.

I do truly appreciate everyone inputs and thoughts.  Glad I did not take this project on myself.  I feel comfortable with electric.  Me and plumbing just don't get along.

Ron

Good to hear the job is progressing Ron.

Good CO and smoke detectors are a must in all structures. The new models have 10 year batteries and are maintenance free.

Fortunately I have nothing above my layout except one heating line.

If water heater keeps shutting off, the control box is bad…a little ball of tinfoil can get it running

@Ron045 posted:

"The one thing I really don't want to remove is my signal bridge.  I wired the darn thing years ago and could not even tell you how it works.

Not having Fun

Ron, this part made me laugh.  A lot of things on my layout I have no idea how they are wired.

@Catdaddy posted:

If water heater keeps shutting off, the control box is bad…a little ball of tinfoil can get it running

Yeap!  Still doesn't work.  We are getting a new control box tomorrow AM.

Ron

That little gap was why mine stopped, almost brand new. Tech over phone told me what to do and he knew before I talked to him.  This was not first time he heard this and my impression was this is a defect.  New box sent, problem solved…..but tinfoil got us hot water during Christmas and New years

The white plastic piece has a metal disc in it……just not thick enough I guess…..all I know is it worked

Make sure new box is metal, not plastic

I feel your pain! Had to replace our 20 year old, 50 gallon, boiler heated, water heater last year when it developed a pin hole leak at the drain. Every plumber I talked to said the same thing, "I'll buy whatever they have on hand at the local big box store."  That meant settling for a 40 gallon water heater (they don't make 50 gallon heaters for residential anymore), it barely fills my jet tub with hot water. The first night one solder joint on the overhead pipes had a pin leak develop. It soaked my newer Lionel boxes on the top shelf. The only good thing that came from the experience was that we re-located it and recovered several square feet in a strategic area.

Something for others to consider.  My water heater tank was in the way of my layout build so I went with a Rinnai tankless water heater and put it out of the way in a corner of the basement below two bathrooms.  Been 12 years now with total satisfaction.  Exhaust pipe length, 20".

This move allowed for an additional 3.5' X 16'  peninsula featuring a station, 4 track yard and access aisle to the back tracks.

One thing to consider, with a Hot water tank replacement,  is the new TP (Temperature/Pressure) relief valve, that comes with the tank, is different from old relief valves.  The installation may require a small expansion tank, added to the new hot water tank, either gas or electric.

We'll now the BIG question.

Do I put it all back the way it was or do I do something different?  I sort of have a blank canvass in this area.

By the way, those installers were TOP NOTCH.  The only thing that happened was some white flakes when they cut the PVC and they put a towel down to catch most of it.  When I came back later to check it out, I said what happened to the rest of the flakes?  His assistance picked them all out by hand.

Ron