PRR "Silver Meteor" Coaches from Golden Gate Depot

Greg,

The PRR coaches (Nos. 4058-4067, 10 total) were delivered in March 1947.

The writeup in the book by W. David Randall says they were built to upgrade all the Silver fleet (Meteor, Comet, Star) trains AND to increase capacity to handle the traffic they anticipated after the war.  I would say they most likely did use them on other trains as well but maybe someone more knowledgeable about the PRR will chime in.

Here's a shot of the Bradenton:

And Chester:

Thought I'd show photos of the SAL cars while we're on the subject:

Budd Baggage-Dormitory 6050

Budd 52-Seat Coach 6218

Budd Diner 6112

Budd 10-6 Sleeper Miami

PULLMAN Sun-Lounge Palm Beach.

  The small door in the middle was to stock the bar without having to carry the supplies thru the car.  Looks like there's a vent of sorts above the bar area on the roof.

Budd Observation-Tavern-Lounge 6605

Not sure what number/names Scott will do, but he has all the data for them.

The OBS car looks almost Medieval, like a suit of armor.

RF&P also had the 52-seat coaches, not sure if any thought has been given to offering those.

Budd Sun Lounge Palm Beach may be a Budd car, but the Kasiner Pullman extrusion is spot-on.  Wish I still had my blank; I would send it to you.  I cut it for an SP baggage, was dissatisfied, and dropped it on eBay.

OOPS!  My bad Bob, the Sun-Lounge cars are Pullmans, I got in a hurry typing.

I still can't pin down what trucks were used.  I've seen 41-TRV, 41-N, and 41-ND mentioned, must do more research!!!

Not sure why the Bobs are hijacking this; they must be pressing GGD for more SAL cars

Back on topic, the SAL ran the Silver Meteor between Miami and Richmond, where the RF&P took it to DC, where the PRR picked it up with GG1s and continued on to New York/Boston.  The American-Rails.com web site said the sleepers continued with the PRR, so I'm not sure about the GGD coach.  (Note Bob's pictures above: the Bradenton was a sleeper and the Chester looks like the same car.)  From the web site for the southbound train:

"Listed as Trains #57 on Seaboard's timetable, the Silver Meteor would depart Pennsylvania Station at 2:55 pm, powered by PRR GG1s until reaching Washington, D.C. where the train was handed off, about four hours later, to the Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac. The RF&P carried the train another few hours until reaching Richmond's Main Street Station before 10 pm. From this point the Seaboard carried its train the rest of the way to Florida, arriving in Miami by nearly 5 pm the next day (the train also provided connecting service to Tampa, Venice, and St. Petersburg)."

The Silver Star was later added to the same Silver Meteor route to handle increased traffic, and the Silver Comet ran the same PRR route but did not go to Miami.  It sounds like for the time frame of the agreement between the PRR, RF&P, and SAL the Silver Meteor/Comet/Star cars of the PRR ran in blocks between DC and Boston, probably with the Congressionals.  They could also have been on other PRR trains with Tuscan painted cars.  The article did not say.

I would say it would be okay run these PRR cars with any other scale length PRR passenger cars.  Need a GG1 up front.

CAPPilot posted:

Not sure why the Bobs are hijacking this; they must be pressing GGD for more SAL cars

  The American-Rails.com web site said the sleepers continued with the PRR, so I'm not sure about the GGD coach.  (Note Bob's pictures above: the Bradenton was a sleeper and the Chester looks like the same car.)  From the web site for the southbound train:

Ron,

The photos of Chester and Bradenton show PRR 10 and 6 sleepers for Sliver Meteor use. As noted by Bob D, PRR coaches 1058-1067  were identical to the SBD coaches and those are the cars planned by GGD and available lettered for both roads.

Ron, you're correct on the PRR cars I posted, I didn't get but 2 hours sleep last night

Here's the only photo of a PRR 52-seat coach I could get:

Depends on time frame.  The SCL merger did cause some car shifts between the combines passenger trains.

As the PRR got closer to the PC merger,  cars did move to different trains.

You COULD run the train with PRR E units.  But you would have to have the type of fine snow which caused major issues with GG1's.  But that was rare, and I don't think you would want to model weather.

Also, were not the silver GG1's painted for for the SILVER trains?

One needs pictures and/or equipment lists for a true model..

I thought the GGD brochure indicated they were re-running a modified model of their GG1, but I can't find anything on it now.

There's so many photos of the Sun-Lounge cars it's hard to determine what time period they represent.  The photo I posted appears to have tinted, glare-proof windows, but on others it's hard to tell.  William Griffin's book "Seaboard, The Route Of Courteous Service" states the windows were tinted (page 155), as does Joe Welsh's book "By Streamliner, New York To Florida" (page 78).  The shades in the sun-lounge end appear to be "Rattan" type shades and not solid (photo on page 154 confirms).

I wonder how effective the air conditioning was back then, it must have been pretty good to keep the cars from getting like an oven inside, with all that glass overhead.  They did have shades on the 42"x58-1/2" side windows.

According to Joe Welsh's book an interview between historian Peter Tilp and James McCant, a Pullman employee who was reassigned to the Sun-Lounges, they didn't have meal service on the Sun-Lounges, only drinks and snacks (peanuts), although they did bring food to the rooms on request (passengers usually went to the dining car to eat).

The Sun Lounges were a compromise.  Because of low clearance, one could not run domes on the north part of the route.  So SAL and PS came up with the special lounge concept.  They do like a Viewliner sleeper!

Dominic Mazoch posted:

The Sun Lounges were a compromise.  Because of low clearance, one could not run domes on the north part of the route.  So SAL and PS came up with the special lounge concept.  They do like a Viewliner sleeper!

Or those single level "all glass" cars used on passenger trains in western Canada.

I've read the clearance issues were either with the PRR catenarary or tunnels, could have been both.  I don't think Seaboard had any tunnels to speak of that were on the route the Meteor took south of Richmond, not sure about RF&P.

Bob Delbridge posted:

I've read the clearance issues were either with the PRR catenarary or tunnels, could have been both.  I don't think Seaboard had any tunnels to speak of that were on the route the Meteor took south of Richmond, not sure about RF&P.

The biggest clearance problem were the tunnels under the Hudson river from New Jersey into Penn Station.  The centenary had be be lower than usual in these tunnels and even the GG-1s had very close clearances.

I believe that Amtrak has lowered the floor of these tunnels to provide more clearance but that they are still very tight.  There have been several very expensive proposals to replace these 100 plus year old tunnels with new ones as part of a Penn Station renovation and upgrade project.

NH Joe

Thanks Joe, that's good to know.  The only tunnels we have down here in Portsmouth-Norfolk are for road vehicles, not trains.

New Haven Joe posted:

Bob Delbridge posted:

I've read the clearance issues were either with the PRR catenarary or tunnels, could have been both.  I don't think Seaboard had any tunnels to speak of that were on the route the Meteor took south of Richmond, not sure about RF&P.

The biggest clearance problem were the tunnels under the Hudson river from New Jersey into Penn Station.  The centenary had be be lower than usual in these tunnels and even the GG-1s had very close clearances.

I believe that Amtrak has lowered the floor of these tunnels to provide more clearance but that they are still very tight.  There have been several very expensive proposals to replace these 100 plus year old tunnels with new ones as part of a Penn Station renovation and upgrade project.

NH Joe

the original electrification for Penn station was 3rd rail.  when the prr decided to do mainline electrification with overhead catenary (11.000 v ac) they lowered the tracks in the tunnels, which allowed catenary, but very close clearances. there is no room to lower the tracks further.

mikeg

PRR catenary  was an issue for B&O dome cars. The 1949 B&O Columbian was equipped with a dome car on the DC - Chicago route. Passengers were not allowed in the domes before (westbound) and after (eastbound) the Silver Spring, MD. station stop about 15 minutes west of Washington Terminal since the train ran underneath PRR catenary in the Terminal vicinity.

After the B&O cut its service in the east back to Baltimore in 1958 the domes ran to Baltimore where trains were serviced but passengers were not permitted to ride in the dome portion of the cars before/after Silver Spring.

The same applied for Capitol Limited and Shenandoah dome cars.

"After the B&O cut its service in the east back to Baltimore in 1958 the domes ran to Baltimore where trains were serviced but passengers were not permitted to ride in the dome portion of the cars before/after Silver Spring."

I rode several times in the dome between DC and Baltimore. We were allowed back up after the train cleared Union Station trackage.

On another note, Seaboard Sun-lounge car "Hollywood Beach" is still in service as a private car. It is beautiful!

BANDOB posted:

On another note, Seaboard Sun-lounge car "Hollywood Beach" is still in service as a private car. It is beautiful!

And it just sold!!!:

http://ozarkmountainrailcar.co...lywood-beachquot-new

BANDOB posted:

I rode several times in the dome between DC and Baltimore. We were allowed back up after the train cleared Union Station trackage

Guess we rode DC-Balto in different years.

Rheil: that's the first I've ever heard about B&O not allowing passengers in the dome between Washington and Baltimore, at least after clearing Union Station wires. I don't doubt you, but wonder if it was a specific crew's issue rather than a company policy. I rode several times in 1964 and 1965.  In fact, in 1964, they had a dome on the special Steam Iron Horse Days trips, at extra fare. I rode from DC to Baltimore in open window coaches, then came back in the former Columbian dome on #5. Here's the Iron Horse Days train backing into Camden Station. It was in August, 1964.

Bill,

May have been a specific crew's issue. First time I rode in a Columbian dome was 1955 Pittsburgh to Balto but at that time the dome terminated in DC. Great part of that ride was sitting in the dome as The Columbian pulled in to Cumberland just as a westbound freight was running through with an S-1a as road power. Rode Balto - Chicago and return several times in the later 1950's and that was when the no passengers in the dome east of Silver Spring was enforced.

Nice photo you took of one of the Capitol/Shenandoah domes and Capitol observations.

There's been little talk on this, so....who's pre-ordered the Silver Meteor???  I've talked to about 6 people who said they were going to pre-order (only half are on this forum), so who are the others?

I've acquired just about all my "wants" except for this train, gotta have a nice looking train for my 3rd Rail E7 to pull around!

I'll have to check my sources (books, historical magazines) to see if the Meteor was ever pulled by steam so I can pull the Meteor with my 4-8-2 whenever the E7 is in for maintenance

Do GGD cars come with painted interiors (seats, walls) or are they "plain-Os" to be detailed by the owner?

The interiors are painted and nicely detailed. If by walls you mean compartment partitions, then yes, they are there, but the inside of the extrusion is the "wall" of the car. There is no paneling on the inside of the car sides.

The price still says TBD on all the recent announcements. I think a lot of people (me included) dont want to sign on for something until the price is known....

Thanks!

I'm hoping to see a price soon too, as are a couple of folks I've talked too in Florida.

Figure $250 per car. You won't be too far off eventually

The lounge car and the full length dome from the other set were said to cost more. I wouldn't buy a new TV, car, phone, insert  item, without knowing the price beforehand. Why would I commit to an order on something that isn't life critical that isn't priced?

Steve

I love to have this one,

I also would like this one.  I have seen it a few times riding behind 611.

John,

You're not alone.  The Sun-Lounge cars have been around for 60 years now.  The original had carpet that looked like the beach with sea life printed on it:

Looks like it still might (not sure when this was taken):

Here's a builder's photo, driftwood lamps!!!:

If lots of folks don't reserve more sets in the not to distant future the future is likely dark.  Right now Scott is way short on even the minimum number of sets to do these together with another train at the same time.

rdunniii posted:

If lots of folks don't reserve more sets in the not to distant future the future is likely dark.  Right now Scott is way short on even the minimum number of sets to do these together with another train at the same time.

I bet if there were prices on the GGD reservation page instead of TBD he would see some people commit. It may or may not not be enough to make the production numbers but at least there would be a better idea if the project is viable. My $0.02.

Steve

None of the Sun Lounges went to Amtrak?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

None of the Sun Lounges went to Amtrak?

Dominic,

Here's what I found when I was researching these cars:

The first numbers/names were SAL

The second were SCL

The third were AMTRAK (#s 3230, 3231, 3232)

I suspect if Scott wanted to he could make enough Sun-Lounge cars, IF he did them for SAL, SCL, and AMTRAK, to justify making a single-car run.

My interest in the pre-1956 Silver Meteor consist with the tavern-lounge and an extra diner.  Scott is no longer going to make the tavern-lounge and he doesn't list extra diners as being available.  

I'll probably buy the offered version with extra pool cars but not 100 percent certain.

Jan

Bob Delbridge posted:

I've read the clearance issues were either with the PRR catenarary or tunnels, could have been both.  I don't think Seaboard had any tunnels to speak of that were on the route the Meteor took south of Richmond, not sure about RF&P.

I recently read that the only 3 tunnels Seaboard had were on the Birmingham Sub-Division, far from the path the Meteor took.

The Seaboard completely re-equipped the Silver Meteor for the last time in 1956 with the cars that are listed in my post of March 14 near the beginning of this topic.

I wish Scott Mann would give us an update on the status of this set, so far I have seen no posts from him on it (but I do give thanks to Bob Heil for all he has done )

Gregg,

I was looking in the Joseph M. Welsh book "By Streamliner, New York to Florida" (page 87) and spotted PRR car 4061 in the consist of the RF&P train 22 (northbound Silver Star, 1963), so these 52-seat cars didn't strictly stay with the Meteor.

Also spotted the PRR 10-6 Sleepers Bradenton and Elberton in the 1953 Silver Star (page 77).

So at least there seems to be proof that the cars were used in other trains, but I could not find proof of them operating in any other PRR trains.

Hi all, I'm reletively new to the forum but I read through these posts, very Interesting info on the silver meteor. I love the GGD products, I reserved a set... And agreed. I would get a separate sale sun lounge in Amtrak. It would be a great car to go with any phase I Amtrak cars. 

Dave

PRRTrainguy posted:

the original electrification for Penn station was 3rd rail.  when the prr decided to do mainline electrification with overhead catenary (11.000 v ac) they lowered the tracks in the tunnels, which allowed catenary, but very close clearances. there is no room to lower the tracks further.

mikeg

That is interesting. Why is there no room to lower the tracks further? Is there a subway or some other tunnel below the ground?