PS3 with strange startup

Bob,

Can't say why, however, your engine is missing the watchdog signal. See if it behaves the same way on a different part of the layout, preferably an isolated siding.

I have had the exact same thing happen with one of my (new) PS3/RailKing engines as well.  I set it aside for the time being because I don't feel qualified to fuss with it, so will be interested in seeing the responses this thread gets.

Thanks Barry,

Your reply got me to re-read your book's write-up on the watchdog signal and do some experimenting. I do apply power from my Z4K very quickly (under a second to 18V - handle straight up).

I did discover another cure. I've always powered my TIU through the AUX power port with a separate 18V power supply. If I disconnect that and then startup from the Z4K only, the Chapelon does behave as it should (goes into stealth). If I reconnect the separate power and then startup from the Z4K it misses the watchdog.

I'm just testing on a short test track (about 5 ft.) with another PS3 on the same track which does behave normally on startup with or without the AUX power input. I've tried it without the other loco and the behavior is the same.

Thanks for your help,

Bob

The WD should come out of the individual channel when it receives power on it's input side, that would be exclusive of the aux power.  I power the aux power, and I've never seen anything miss the WD when I flip on the PH180 bricks, even if the TIU has been on for some time through the aux power.

Thanks John -- Same with me for years with my other locos. I hardly ever turn off the AUX power transformer. Never had trouble with watchdog before.   I don't know why the AUX power is related for this new loco.  -- Bob

Well, it's certainly odd, don't know why that should be happening, but it sure sounds like that particular locomotive has some issue.

Thanks  for the replies!  I now have a theory for what's happening. 

I think the processor in the Chapelon may boot a little slowly. The TIU sends the Watchdog before the Chapelon is listening. Removing the Aux Power input makes the TIU delay sending the signal by a little bit. (It now has to boot before it sends the signal.) With that little delay, the Chapelon is listening when the signal is sent.

Or maybe I'm full of bologna.

Bob

The WD comes out for a few seconds, so it's surprising that it could take that long to be listening.  You'd think that MTH would understand those limitations.  I'll be a bit surprised if it turns out to be that, but you never know.

I suspect you may be right.  I'll have to try it with the one PS3 engine I have that is exhibiting the same symptoms (none of my other PS3 or PS2 engines have ever had that same problem).  I also use a Z4000, and power the TIU through Aux. power with a Z500 or Z750 brick.

So this leads to the question: Is it a good idea (safe) to connect the AUX power after starting from the Z400 (on Fixed IN1) and all the locos are sitting in stealth mode?

The other theory could be the PS-3 is more sensitive to DCS signal strength and your TIU may have a signal strength issue.  What is interesting is the issue of Aux versus Fix1 power.

Just out of curiosity does this PS-3 behave the same regardless of which TIU channel is being used?  G

My new GS 4 Daylight ps3 engine does the same thing.  None of my other PS3 engines exhibit this behavior.  In my case it starts up in conventional around 15 seconds after power is applied to the track.

Goodness, it seems to be an epidemic!

Jon,

You'd think that MTH would understand those limitations

What in the world are you taking about? There are no "limitations" - the engine is defective and should be replaced or returned to MTH for a warranty repair.

kbtt,

Is it a good idea (safe) to connect the AUX power after starting from the Z400 (on Fixed IN1) and all the locos are sitting in stealth mode?

No, it's probably not a good idea, since doing so swaps power for the TIU from Fixed #1 to the Aux. Power port. This could possibly cause a reboot of the TIU, which could mess with engines that are powered up.

Everyone else,

If you have an engine that exhibits this anomaly, which it most certainly should not, it is defective and is an indication that it should be repaired before it, possibly, becomes completely unable to process a watchdog signal at all.

Just my 2 cents...

That was my initial read Barry, it's odd that more than one person has seen it.  Perhaps this is just something for a few that has slipped by.

I get this response with both my PS2 and my one PS3 engines. If I switch on the power with the MRC Pure Power Dual rocker with the handle on full they catch the WD. If I use a toggle on the siding they are on they start up. I just hit the startup button and all is normal. However, if I don't hit startup soon enough on the PS3, it takes off and I have to cut power and start over. Everything else is fine when I get them out of that funk. Usually the problem only shows up when I use the toggle switch.

          John

In your toggle switch example, it sounds like the TIU channel has already got power.  So, in that case, there will be no WD if you wait more than a couple of seconds after the TIU channel has input power.  This sounds perfectly normal.

The WD only comes out for a few seconds when input power is applied to a specific TIU input.  After that, any train that suddenly receives power from that channel by a toggle or other connection will not see the WD.

John,

In that case there's something wrong either the transformer or the engine.

I also noticed  that your transformer is not on the list of those approved for use with DCS, at least in my copy of the manual.

I don't understand your comment Barry.

When he starts with powering up the TIU channel with the transformer, it all works as intended and all the engines see the WD.

When he powers up a siding with a toggle taking power from a an already powered TIU channel, he won't get a WD.

Where's the problem?  That sounds like normal operation to me, and I can duplicate it here with any transformer.

OH, FWIW, the MRC transformer was specifically mentioned when I was at MTH as being a problem with certain installations, so that may be part of the issue.

I have a PS3 UP ES44AC that, when it sits on my main loop of track will come up dark and silent when power is applied to the track via my Rev L TIU's Fixed Output 1.

However, when the same locomotive is sitting in my one and only siding, it will start immediately when track power is applied (via Fixed Output 1) without being commanded to do so from the remote.  The power to the siding is controlled by an Atlas SPST switch.  I always ensure that the SPST switch is in the on position before I apply power to the TIU, yet the ES44 starts immediately each time when sitting in the siding.

After it starts in the siding it does not move, so I shut it down with the remote.  I then immediately restart it, and it runs normally under DCS control.

In your case Rick, I suspect for whatever reason the WD signal is weak on the siding.  Have you tried a magic light bulb at the far end of the siding?

John, thanks for the toggle explanation.You're right in that the TIU is already powered when I flip the switch. I park engines that way so they don't accumulate hours just sitting. I have no DCS problems that I know of with the MRC transformer. I just put the TIU in after the transformer leads and everything works well. My Remote Commander never did, though. I have 7 sidings on toggles and 5 blocks with a low signal in a couple places but never any response problems. I am moving to a new 20X30 addition to the garage from the attic where I can only stand up in the center. I'll probably find problems when I try to do everything right.

          John

John,

However, if I don't hit startup soon enough on the PS3, it takes off and I have to cut power and start over

That's the issue to which I was referring. That is not normal behavior, and indicates that either the tranny or the engine has a problem.

Rick,

The power to the siding is controlled by an Atlas SPST switch

Remve the switch or jumper around it and see if the problem goes away.

Barry, we have two issues going, which is why it's so confusing.  I agree that is not normal, it should just sit there until power is interrupted if it's in conventional mode.

Barry and John-I suppose that could be a transformer issue. If it is, it is the only one I am aware of. I'll check the list to see if I have anything I can use to compare. Thanks.

          John

It could also be locked in forward.  That would explain the motion.  I would do a Conventional reset, and than a Factory reset on the engine on the main line.  I would then put it on the siding with toggle off.  Power up tiu then power up siding.  At that point engine should start up, but not move.  If so, it was just locked in a direction.

All you need to do is press shutdown and the engine should shutdown, and you now should have DCS control of the engine.  Or press start up and commence operating engine.   G

I just ran into this. I updated a REV13A (it still works) TIU and remote and had the same thing happen. I thought I would try what I read in this thread and it happened. The engine was a PS3 UP 0-6-0 switcher after I upated everything and powered up the TIU a few seconds after the egine started up. I tried to add it while it was running and it wouldn't add.

I then unplugged the AUX power and just powered it with my Z4000 and it did it again. So I shut it all down again and after restarting everything the engine acted normal. I then took the engine to my layout and it worked just fine. I have a REV L on my layout and one on my work bench. Never ran into this before.

Just thought it was ironic that after reading this post that I had it happen.

Ralph

I have a Lehigh Valley Hudson, one of the first P3 steamers out, and it does exactly what KBTT describes. I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but thought it might be just lucky me. I guess not. When this problem is figured out, you'll be getting my engine to fix Ralph. I put it on the shelf for now as it is a pain when powering up the layout. Let me know when you know please.

George

Pull your tether and replug using a small bit of horsepower to be positive it is home.  

MTH may want to go back to the drawing board on the tether, some of them are a real beast to get properly latched! 

Thanks for the info. It's interesting that this engine has a history associated with it's tether. It didn't work right out of the box thanks to a loose tether plug. Ralph fixed that for me. Then I tried this engine under the tree on 031 curves and the plug would work it's way loose. I see there are 3 different length tethers available. I assume this has the shortest one and I'm thinking that maybe I should get a longer one. Maybe just change it out? Any thoughts here? Thanks, George 

By the way, I believe the problems described here are specific to certain engines. I got a P3 Northern about the same time as the hudson and that works just fine. Having more than a dozen engines on the layout that power up just fine and this hudson that doesn't, tells me it's something unique to the engine. It seems to me like some kind of an electrical timing issue. Maybe the timing of the capacitor charge is not sufficient? Hey, what do you want from a ME? George  

Want to thank all for the replies. I have a work around that allows my Chapelon Pacific to start normally and lets me use Aux power. I put my Z4K and the Aux power transformer on the same power strip. With that strip off, I turn on the Z4K power switch leaving the handle at 0V. Then I turn on the power strip and after two seconds, move the Z4K handle to 18V (quickly). Works every time. Chapelon catches the WD. 

Before I had the Aux power transformer on first. Then I'd power and apply voltage with the Z4K and the loco missed the signal every time.

All my other PS2 and PS3 locos work fine either way.

So, for me, this is all about timing. I know Barry suggested I return it, but I love the loco and I'm not totally sure the underlying issue isn't my TIU timing. I'll think about it a while longer.

Thanks again!

Bob

My GS 4 exhibited this behavior, then a couple of days later worked properly, then last Friday would start in conventional again and last night it worked properly.  Interesting.

Marty, I pulled the plug and used all my available horsepower to seat it. I did a little testing tonight and found the following:

My layout has 4 basic power loops. On loop #1 this engine starts on its on as described earlier here. On the other 3 loops, it doesn't do the false start and is normal. In all cases the engine indicates a signal strength of 10 where I put it. This is the only engine I have that does this. I'm still looking for answers. George

 I have an engine yard with four tracks full of engines and even some parked in the throat of the yard. Most will behave. I have two new NS Heritage NP w/ PS3 that if parked in the yard will miss the watchdog signal and start right up?

I have a couple of other engines that have PS3, that each behave overall. Sometimes when parked in certain areas, certain engines act up. Can be with PS3 or PS2. I usually solve issues by rewiring or grouping different ones together. With these two new ES44s, I just yanked them off the tracks and shelved them, a couple of months back. I have to admit I just plain ran out of patience.

  The layout was easier with less engines. You can all guess about the reasons. As the numbers grow so does the effort to keep them running smooth. Still seems to me that certain engines are picky about their surroundings whether they have PS2 or PS3 inside. I guess it maybe time to add a second TIU channel to just the engine yard? Would killing each of the yard's tracks with parked engines help signal strength?

Maybe a channel per track with three or four engines parked on each?

How many engines can a channel deal with?

I have 20 engines sitting on my layout when I power up and this one PS 3 engine is the only one misbehaving. I have one other PS 3 engine that behaves. I believe the problem is in this engine. I'm hoping someone can figure this out.