Menards,
Wouldn't be better to have your Research and Development Department design a coupler that not only opens and close but stays closed once its closed? That way everyone is a winner.
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Menards,
Wouldn't be better to have your Research and Development Department design a coupler that not only opens and close but stays closed once its closed? That way everyone is a winner.
As I suggested earlier, how about one non-operating and one operating coupler? Cost would be somewhat less, and we would still be able to uncouple cars.
Then what if that one coupler starts popping open, then you have a car with 2 non-opening couplers. I say keep both couplers operational. And I don't do scale, so yes, I buy the cheap cars and switch them around.
"Then what if that one coupler starts popping open, then you have a car with 2 non-opening couplers."
As I suggested earlier, how about one non-operating and one operating coupler? Cost would be somewhat less, and we would still be able to uncouple cars.
Then what if that one coupler starts popping open, then you have a car with 2 non-opening couplers. I say keep both couplers operational. And I don't do scale, so yes, I buy the cheap cars and switch them around.
"Then what if that one coupler starts popping open, then you have a car with 2 non-opening couplers."
I'm guessing that means one disables the troublesome coupler to prevent its opening whether intentionally or not, leaving you with two non-operating couplers.
---PCJ
It seems the desire for operating couplers is much less unanimous than I would have thought. In my experience, the two lionel flat cars I've had forever with non-opperating couplers have lived in a box for 20 years because of it. I don't do a ton of switching cars, but I like the option.
Assuming cost cutting is the goal, as opposed to replacing a design that doesn't work, I think it is fair, considering how many people will never use operating couplers, however if done, I think it would be nice to offer a set of operating replacement trucks at a "fair" price.
On a side note, reasonably priced rolling stock? I thought I had to buy used for that. Keep up the good work! Any thought about some simple 2 or 4 bay hoppers?
Menards,
Wouldn't be better to have your Research and Development Department design a coupler that not only opens and close but stays closed once its closed? That way everyone is a winner.
A ha! I read through the whole thread wondering if someone would get to the crux of the matter! Thanks for finally getting there. For $60+ a car is it too much to expect that couplers should work reliably?? I have two full shelves in my basement where I place cars with coupler problems that I may (or may not) ever get to. And these aren't just old post-war pieces with weak springs. I have way too many new and near new cars from all the manufacturers with bad couplers.
And to answer the O.P's. question, YES I would gladly pay less for permanently closed couplers. I do some switching but the problem I describe above has discouraged me so that I don't do it nearly as much as I used to. And I agree that operating couplers are totally unnecessary for passenger cars, except for maybe the front coupler of the baggage car which usually goes right behind the engine.
I think it is really great that a manufacturer gets on this forum to explore with his customers how to make things better or cheaper. Thank You for doing this.
Bill
Does Menard's come up with it's own coupler that isn't compatible with MTH/Lionel, or have a choice of operating vs. non-operating? Expensive either way I figure.
How about:
-A simple coupler like the N scale Arnold Rapido type. Looks like a knuckle, but works like hook-and-loop: up and over/down and under. Solid enough, allows manual uncoupling, couples automatically.
-Leave the coupler mounting the same as MTH/Lionel, and mounting pad potential for the Kadee fans.
-Whether it's possible to make an Arnold-style coupler that's compatible with the O gauge knuckle, I don't know; the angles might be difficult.
Menards,
Wouldn't be better to have your Research and Development Department design a coupler that not only opens and close but stays closed once its closed? That way everyone is a winner.
... For $60+ a car is it too much to expect that couplers should work reliably?? I have a two full shelves in my basement where I place cars with coupler problems that I may (or may not) ever get to. And these aren't just old post-war pieces with weak springs. I have way too many new and near new cars from all the manufacturers with bad couplers.
While I fully agree that on a new, $60+ item, from a company that has been making these things for decades, there is absolutely ZERO excuse not to have it right, I'm willing to cut some slack to someone selling a boxcar for $20.
Mark,
If it was the right car at the right price, I wouldn't mind it having non-operating couplers. That would be fine on passenger cars.
Jimmy Sutter, They're not selling the same Mfg cars as you used to! Your prices, and their stock were the best! Ready to un-retire? LOL
Menards,
Wouldn't be better to have your Research and Development Department design a coupler that not only opens and close but stays closed once its closed? That way everyone is a winner.
However, they are selling some interesting cars. Once the bugs are worked out, they ought to do well
Given all that, operating is a must, non operating is a BUST!
If you look closely at the post war magnetic couplers, you can see why the couplers open when the train is long. The pin that holds the knuckle closed leaves a witness mark on the knuckle. Examination of the pin contact area on the knuckle reveals that the contact area is not parallel to the pin. It has a slop probably caused by the need for draft in the casting.
This should probably work to correct the problem. Take a 1/8" cutter in a Dremel tool and make a notch in the knuckle so that the bottom of the notch is parallel to the pin. This should keep the pin from working itself downward so that the knuckle opens.
I haven't tried this yet, but I have a loop of 072 track on the floor to try it. I have a 2353 pulling 17 cars, mostly postwar, and the couplers are all staying closed. I will add some more cars to see how many I can run at once. When a car finally uncouples, I will modify the knuckle and see what happens.
slope, not slop
If you look closely at the post war magnetic couplers, you can see why the couplers open when the train is long. The pin that holds the knuckle closed leaves a witness mark on the knuckle. Examination of the pin contact area on the knuckle reveals that the contact area is not parallel to the pin. It has a slop probably caused by the need for draft in the casting.
This should probably work to correct the problem. Take a 1/8" cutter in a Dremel tool and make a notch in the knuckle so that the bottom of the notch is parallel to the pin. This should keep the pin from working itself downward so that the knuckle opens.
I haven't tried this yet, but I have a loop of 072 track on the floor to try it. I have a 2353 pulling 17 cars, mostly postwar, and the couplers are all staying closed. I will add some more cars to see how many I can run at once. When a car finally uncouples, I will modify the knuckle and see what happens.
If you could post some sharp close-up pictures when you do this, it would be much appreciated. I'm not sure I understood what you described.
Non-operating couplers on passenger cars would be OK but not very practical on freight cars, for my use.
.....
Dennis
-A simple coupler like the N scale Arnold Rapido type.
To add to my previous ramblings, here's some info and background on the Arnold (originated by Rokal, who made TT scale equipment):
http://guidetozscale.com/html/the_rapido_coupler.html
would be fine by me
I'd seriously consider it. I don't do any switching right now, and I honestly don't know what a future layout will hold. I like to run long freights, and get frustrated with couplers that open all the time.
I'm interested to see the Menard's rolling stock in action, as I have some flats headed my way soon. Not to get off topic, but it seems like people have mentioned the trucks needing adjustment a couple places, what is that about? And how much work am I in for?
How long can your freight be before the couplers open? And what type of cars are you running? The post war cars have more friction than the later cars with needle point bearings and I think the post war cars have the most problem with the couplers coming open.
I have 17 cars on my 072 loop right now, and the couplers don't come open. I have room to add more cars, and my 2325 will pull them.
Normally I'm just "loopy". When I run freight, I run long distance freight. Its going to be on the road a while. Most small layouts don't offer much switching.
I make more stops with a passenger train. So I think the couplers of a passenger train, should follow the prototypes normal pattern. Ie, Some famous trains dropped only one or a few cars at a station, which would then continue on a more local route under a new name and loco, while the original train continued on, retrieving those on its return.
But on others, it wouldn't matter much, even on baggage cars. Most Locos, or tenders uncouple anyhow, so it isn't needed much. You really only need one to open.
One operating, one dummy isn't too bad an idea. If I'm not mistaken, some cars were semi-permanently coupled as pairs. I remember gondolas like that around Detroit. In the 70s? I think they were stainless. This was thrown at a few other treads one dummy with one operating coupler too.(which Lionel did too over the years.)
If you pair them cleverly too, hits could be a cinch. Like an English muffin car, with a "butter" reefer. An Ice cream reefer, with a syrup tanker. An ambulance on a flat car, and a Menards tool car Come on! You know we will buy it while we are waiting for casts to come off, or stiches to come out . .
I've never seen your pieces up close. But I'm assuming from what Ive read here your not using an exact copy of any older design I might know.
But, developing the ride, and quality of your trucks is the best thing you could focus on if this is for keeps IMHO. They can be "cheap", but must work at least a few years to be of any value to Mom, Pop, & kidd'o consumers. Wheels falling out will not make a very good brand impression.
The couplers can be an important "sell" in a way though.
As a kid, I did not want to lift the train.
While electro magnetics were cool, non-operating were equally uncool.
But a poorly working un-coupler, due to low power transformers, often had me pushing the disk with my finger anyhow. That's why tabs are so great. If I derailed it reaching for the disk, I had to touch the cars, and lift. not good. I also hated the "crust" that would impede operation of PW after a year in the basement too.
Newer plastic/tack couplers open smooth, but plastic pins tend to be an issue under load too. Ive "kit bashed" with the couplers i've seen on Weavers. They seem to hold best, but after I re-spring/tweak them. How well, I don't know the limits. I don't have 40 light cars. But with fast grades, old track, and ceiling shelves not built for track I can do 25 loaded heavies anytime, and those stay closed impressively tight. But the disk is too low for fast grades, so... snip! Now I use my fingernail on the pin-levers edge, tab-like.
The coupler side tabs should be on everything that works. That has been my stance since I was 4.(owned a train before I was born)
Even a non-automatic version that worked with one finger, might work out well.
A Menards un-coupler track similar to the tin plate/MARX un-couplers that lift the truck, high enough for them to separate, might win you some fans.
I also thought the Pre war drop pin couplers were very cool too. I asked to use those often.(denied often) It would be kind of prototypical for 1800s stuff.
Originally Posted by xrayvizhen:
If you look closely at the post war magnetic couplers, you can see why the couplers open when the train is long. The pin that holds the knuckle closed leaves a witness mark on the knuckle. Examination of the pin contact area on the knuckle reveals that the contact area is not parallel to the pin. It has a slop probably caused by the need for draft in the casting.
This should probably work to correct the problem. Take a 1/8" cutter in a Dremel tool and make a notch in the knuckle so that the bottom of the notch is parallel to the pin. This should keep the pin from working itself downward so that the knuckle opens.
I haven't tried this yet, but I have a loop of 072 track on the floor to try it. I have a 2353 pulling 17 cars, mostly postwar, and the couplers are all staying closed. I will add some more cars to see how many I can run at once. When a car finally uncouples, I will modify the knuckle and see what happens.
If you could post some sharp close-up pictures when you do this, it would be much appreciated. I'm not sure I understood what you described.
In the defense of PW couplers. If you take the time, and effort, to seriously tune one by rebuilding bad ones with better tolerances, and alignments, you wont have issues.
The angle, and length of the pin, to its latching surface (and condition of the surface), while still maintaining clearance enough to "drop" without rubbing in the hole, is the key to long trains. My Grandfather had boxes of knuckles. Though they mostly "swapped" ok. Different dies, and years, had tiny run differences that could help one tweak by part choice alone. The ones he favored had to be filed to fit the vertical thrust surfaces at the pivot(fat).
I would not buy anything with non operating couplers.
-rog
Jim M Sr,
Thank you for your kind words. Please be advised Homer City has excellent drinking water but its not the fountain of youth.
@servoguy posted:If you look closely at the post war magnetic couplers, you can see why the couplers open when the train is long. The pin that holds the knuckle closed leaves a witness mark on the knuckle. Examination of the pin contact area on the knuckle reveals that the contact area is not parallel to the pin. It has a slop probably caused by the need for draft in the casting.
This should probably work to correct the problem. Take a 1/8" cutter in a Dremel tool and make a notch in the knuckle so that the bottom of the notch is parallel to the pin. This should keep the pin from working itself downward so that the knuckle opens.
I haven't tried this yet, but I have a loop of 072 track on the floor to try it. I have a 2353 pulling 17 cars, mostly postwar, and the couplers are all staying closed. I will add some more cars to see how many I can run at once. When a car finally uncouples, I will modify the knuckle and see what happens.
One thing about this topic, it'll be around as long as there are Lionel trains to play with! This was my night to catch up on some mundane repairs, including couplers that spontaneously just let go. My Bronx Zoo giraffe car was VERY consistent at doing this on a couple of spots on my very small 027 oval test track - never made it even one loop!! On closer examination, it was obvious there were some non-factory bends in the spring steel armature, likely made by the previous owner in an attempt to apply more positive pressure to the armature pin. In fact, that may be why he was willing to get rid of his giraffe car for $5.00!
I tried all the suggestions here, plus a number of other suggestions made on similar threads. The closest I got to making it go away was using servoguy's technique of leveling up the face of the knuckle in relation to the armature pin using my Dremel and a very small bit (that's my interpretation of what he stated.) After doing that, the pin no longer worked it's way down to release the coupler when I wiggled and twisted the coupler manually, but once on the track, it still let go.
Then I noticed that the spring steel armature was not snugly riveted to the plastic coupler shank. This was allowing a very small amount of slop in holding the armature against the coupler shank. An easy fix on the arbor press, but it required removing the truck to get at those parts, and that meant drilling out the truck rivet. If you haven't tried this on a plastic truck, good luck! It's very difficult for me to NOT drill past the rivet and into the truck frame. Reminder to self: buy a bench top drill press!!!
After removing the truck, I carefully snugged the rivet holding the spring steel armature to the coupler, then set about reassembly. I added a washer to the truck rivet at the clinching end to compensate for my errant drilling technique, and all was good to go. The giraffe car now leads a string of 10 other postwar cars, all being pulled by three conventional engines - yeah, I'm a believer in overkill. And it hasn't let go since. That was #1 ... now on to the other dozen cars waiting their turn!
George
I would be totally fine with non operating couplers, as I don’t do any switching at all. Please, however, fix the issue with the trucks having wheels that don’t turn freely. I have received far to many pieces of rolling stock with this issue.
Cheers, Pete
super glue/CA it! if you want to take it off use a debonder.
I’m surprised to read this. Kaydee couplers work fine and are widely used. The Arnold unit works very well.
I do have a couple of “rogue” couplers on my older stock, particularly one of the 24xx coaches. I’ve put a drop of superglue in it, which seems to work well enough, given that I run them as a consist anyway
I decided to ask my 13 yr old what he thought. Matthew voted for fixed couplers and save money. He said since there are no side tabs on the trucks to uncouple, you have to lift up the cars to uncouple anyway. We do not have uncoupling tracks so I understand his reasoning. We just got a rail chief+ switcher and he has been using that daily to switch cars around on our layout hands free.
"Our question is, how would cars be regarded with non-operating couplers? Would you purchase these at a small price reduction? "
Probably not. My preference is for operating couplers that work reliably, and include a manual uncoupling tab. I would rather pay a "small price" for the features I want. The priorities are: stay closed when closed, lock closed when they should, and release when tab is pressed or when remotely uncoupling is actuated. My opinion.
@Menards posted:As a hobby, we spend time and money (probably not all that much, but some) tinkering with “operating couplers” for rail cars in our layouts only to find that many of them must be glued, screwed or rubber bonded shut because they pop open at the worst possible time. Many of us have experienced this in long trains especially.
Our question is, how would cars be regarded with non-operating couplers? Would you purchase these at a small price reduction? Would you consider it an advantage or a disadvantage? We are curious. Please let us know your opinion for planning purposes.
I understand the thought, but probably would not buy the car. Lionel did one of each on some of there more inexpensive cars at one time. The only problem with that is you had to be sure to have them facing the same way so you could uncouple at any where in the train. But even with that option I probably would pass.
MARK, NO NO AND **** NO. let me explane. I love to switch cars and use both the uncoupling tracks and a homemade uncoupling tool. now dont get me wrong menards I love your box cars and hopper cars. I even make track cleaning cars out of your box cars to run in my train consist. let me tell you they work very well.
now as for your trucks and couplers they work just ok. the downside is there is no little uncoupling tab on your trucks like mth and lionel to uncouple the cars manually. so I end up replacing them with lionel or mth trucks. if you would be able to add this little tab somehow without a patent issue or other issue. this would make your cars the best value in semiscale oguage period IMO. your cars with plastic trucks have the tab I am referring to. your better diecast trucks do not however.
Now for a visual of how I uncouple my cars with hidden uncouplers ( non thumbtack) like yours. here is a small video of a similar mth car with hidden uncouplers. only theirs have a metal tab that can be pushed manually to open the coupler as well as the bottom plate for operating tracks. I will also attach a third video on the manual uncoupling of a truck with thumbtack uncouplers.
Mark I hope you can see in the videos of how I use my uncoupling tool. now if your cars had this little uncoupling tab I would by a lot of your cars. so please do not go backwards to save money. go forwards to get even better operation from your diecast trucks. thanks.
@Menards posted:how would cars be regarded with non-operating couplers? Would you purchase these at a small price reduction? Would you consider it an advantage or a disadvantage?
An improvement. None of the layouts I run have remote uncouplers. IMHO operating couplers are a waste of money. I would consider it as an advantage. IF you really want operating couplers. there is a plethora to choose from and couplers are easily swapped out.
I would be interested to know if S Scale couplers would connect up to Lionel Claw couplers. If they will, that would be an excellent compromise between the big honking claw coupler and the Kaydee scale coupler.
Just my unvarnished $0.02 FWIW.
Guys...the last couple of days of comments are not what the original Menards topic intended. Your discussion is fine but how about starting a new thread so that folks can find it more easily someday.
Thanks!
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