Question on Couplers

Menards,

Wouldn't be better to have your Research and Development Department design a coupler that not only opens and close but stays closed once its closed? That way everyone is a winner. 

"Then what if that one coupler starts popping open, then you have a car with 2 non-opening couplers."

I'm guessing that means one disables the troublesome coupler to prevent its opening whether intentionally or not, leaving you with two non-operating couplers.

 ---PCJ

It seems the desire for operating couplers is much less unanimous than I would have thought.  In my experience, the two lionel flat cars I've had forever with non-opperating couplers have lived in a box for 20 years because of it.  I don't do a ton of switching cars, but I like the option.  

Assuming cost cutting is the goal, as opposed to replacing a design that doesn't work, I think it is fair, considering how many people will never use operating couplers, however if done, I think it would be nice to offer a set of operating replacement trucks at a "fair" price.

On a side note, reasonably priced rolling stock?  I thought I had to buy used for that.  Keep up the good work!  Any thought about some simple 2 or 4 bay hoppers? 

A ha! I read through the whole thread wondering if someone would get to the crux of the matter! Thanks for finally getting there. For $60+ a car is it too much to expect that couplers should work reliably?? I have two full shelves in my basement where I place cars with coupler problems that I may (or may not) ever get to. And these aren't just old post-war pieces with weak springs. I have way too many new and near new cars from all the manufacturers with bad couplers.

And to answer the O.P's. question, YES I would gladly pay less for permanently closed couplers. I do some switching but the problem I describe above has discouraged me so that I don't do it nearly as much as I used to. And I agree that operating couplers are totally unnecessary for passenger cars, except for maybe the front coupler of the baggage car which usually goes right behind the engine.

I think it is really great that a manufacturer gets on this forum to explore with his customers how to make things better or cheaper.  Thank You for doing this.

Bill

Does Menard's come up with it's own coupler that isn't compatible with MTH/Lionel, or have a choice of operating vs. non-operating? Expensive either way I figure.

How about:

-A simple coupler like the N scale Arnold Rapido type. Looks like a knuckle, but works like hook-and-loop: up and over/down and under. Solid enough, allows manual uncoupling, couples automatically.

-Leave the coupler mounting the same as MTH/Lionel, and mounting pad potential for the Kadee fans.

-Whether it's possible to make an Arnold-style coupler that's compatible with the O gauge knuckle, I don't know; the angles might be difficult.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi...709-2_SBB_Re_460.jpg

While I fully agree that on a new, $60+ item, from a company that has been making these things for decades, there is absolutely ZERO excuse not to have it right, I'm willing to cut some slack to someone selling a boxcar for $20.  

Mark,

If it was the right car at the right price, I wouldn't mind it having non-operating couplers.  That would be fine on passenger cars.

Jimmy Sutter, They're not selling the same Mfg cars as you used to! Your prices, and their stock were the best! Ready to un-retire? LOL

Menards,

Wouldn't be better to have your Research and Development Department design a coupler that not only opens and close but stays closed once its closed? That way everyone is a winner. 

 

 

However, they are selling some interesting cars. Once the bugs are worked out, they ought to do well

Given all that, operating is a must, non operating is a BUST!

If you look closely at the post war magnetic couplers, you can see why the couplers open when the train is long.  The pin that holds the knuckle closed leaves a witness mark  on the knuckle.  Examination of the pin contact area on the knuckle reveals that the contact area is not parallel to the pin.  It has a slop probably caused by the need for draft in the casting.  

This should probably work to correct the problem.  Take a 1/8" cutter in a Dremel tool and make a notch in the knuckle so that the bottom of the notch is parallel to the pin.  This should keep the pin from working itself downward so that the knuckle opens.  

I haven't tried this yet, but I have a loop of 072 track on the floor to try it.  I have a 2353 pulling 17 cars, mostly postwar, and the couplers are all staying closed.  I will add some more cars to see how many I can run at once.  When a car finally uncouples, I will modify the knuckle and see what happens.  

slope, not slop

If you could post some sharp close-up pictures when you do this, it would be much appreciated. I'm not sure I understood what you described.

Non-operating couplers on passenger cars would be OK but not very practical on freight cars, for my use.

.....

Dennis 

To add to my previous ramblings, here's some info and background on the Arnold (originated by Rokal, who made TT scale equipment):

http://guidetozscale.com/html/the_rapido_coupler.html

would be fine by me

I'd seriously consider it. I don't do any switching right now, and I honestly don't know what a future layout will hold. I like to run long freights, and get frustrated with couplers that open all the time. 

I'm interested to see the Menard's rolling stock in action, as I have some flats headed my way soon. Not to get off topic, but it seems like people have mentioned the trucks needing adjustment a couple places, what is that about? And how much work am I in for?  

How long can your freight be before the couplers open?  And what type of cars are you running?  The post war cars have more friction than the later cars with needle point bearings and I think the post war cars have the most problem with the couplers coming open.

I have 17 cars on my 072 loop right now, and the couplers don't come open.  I have room to add more cars, and my 2325 will pull them.

  Normally I'm just "loopy". When I run freight, I run long distance freight. Its going to be on the road a while. Most small layouts don't offer much switching.

  I make more stops with a passenger train. So I think the couplers of a passenger train, should follow the prototypes normal pattern. Ie, Some famous trains dropped only one or a few cars at a station, which would then continue on a more local route under a new name and loco, while the original train continued on, retrieving those on its return. 

 But on others, it wouldn't matter much, even on baggage cars. Most Locos, or tenders uncouple anyhow, so it isn't needed much. You really only need one to open.

One operating, one dummy isn't too bad an idea. If I'm not mistaken, some cars were semi-permanently coupled as pairs. I remember gondolas like that around Detroit. In the 70s? I think they were stainless. This was thrown at a few other treads one dummy with one operating coupler too.(which Lionel did too over the years.)

  If you pair them cleverly too, hits could be a cinch.  Like an English muffin car, with a "butter" reefer. An Ice cream reefer, with a syrup tanker. An ambulance on a flat car, and a Menards tool car    Come on! You know we will buy it while we are waiting for casts to come off, or stiches to come out . .

 I've never seen your pieces up close. But I'm assuming from what Ive read here your not using an exact copy of any older design I might know. 

 But, developing the ride, and quality of your trucks is the best thing you could focus on if this is for keeps IMHO. They can be "cheap", but must work at least a few years to be of any value to Mom, Pop, & kidd'o consumers. Wheels falling out will not make a very good brand impression.

  The couplers can be an important "sell" in a way though.

  As a kid, I did not want to lift the train.

While electro magnetics were cool, non-operating were equally uncool.

But a poorly working un-coupler, due to low power transformers, often had me pushing the disk with my finger anyhow. That's why tabs are so great. If I derailed it reaching for the disk, I had to touch the cars, and lift. not good. I also hated the "crust" that would impede operation of PW after a year in the basement too.

 Newer plastic/tack couplers open smooth, but plastic pins tend to be an issue under load too. Ive "kit bashed" with the couplers i've seen on Weavers. They seem to hold best, but after I re-spring/tweak them. How well, I don't know the limits. I don't have 40 light cars. But with fast grades, old track, and ceiling shelves not built for track I can do 25 loaded heavies anytime, and those stay closed impressively tight. But the disk is too low for fast grades, so... snip! Now I use my fingernail on the pin-levers edge, tab-like.   

 The coupler side tabs should be on everything that works. That has been my stance since I was 4.(owned a train before I was born)

  Even a non-automatic version that worked with one finger, might work out well.

 A Menards un-coupler track similar to the tin plate/MARX un-couplers that lift the truck, high enough for them to separate, might win you some fans. 

 I also thought the Pre war drop pin couplers were very cool too. I asked to use those often.(denied often) It would be kind of prototypical for 1800s stuff. 

Originally Posted by xrayvizhen:

 In the defense of PW couplers. If you take the time, and effort, to seriously tune one by rebuilding bad ones with better tolerances, and alignments, you wont have issues.

 The angle, and length of the pin, to its latching surface (and condition of the surface), while still maintaining clearance enough to "drop" without rubbing in the hole, is the key to long trains. My Grandfather had boxes of knuckles. Though they mostly "swapped" ok. Different dies, and years, had tiny run differences that could help one tweak by part choice alone. The ones he favored had to be filed to fit the vertical thrust surfaces at the pivot(fat).  

I would not buy anything with non operating couplers.

-rog

Jim M Sr,

Thank you for your kind words. Please be advised Homer City has excellent drinking water but its not the fountain of youth.