REVERSE LOOPS - NEED HELP

Paul,

Take a look at this picture to see the changes I made.

What are the dimensions of the layout? (23' x 16'?) Are you using O-72 outer main and O-63 inner?

Stewart's plan is a great idea, because in any others are going to be difficult because of where the grades are.  

Stewart - the layout dimensions are 17 ft. X 22.5 ft. and I did use 081, 072 and 063 curves throughout the layout.  I do like your plan although I'm concerned about the right and left side of the layout as I must put in a grade on both sides.  I want the top 2 mainlines on the 22 ft wall to be elevated and level so I can place a bridge or 2 in that area.  That would mean that the right side of the mainline needs to be "switch free" so the decline can be made and the left side needs to be "switch free" so the incline can be constructed. I hope I'm making sense in my description to you.

Paul

Paul,

There's nothing wrong with having a switch on a grade as long as the percent of incline doesn't change right in the area of the switch.

Even if the reverse loop link ends up being slightly steeper than the rest of the grade that might be OK since it would be used less frequently than the rest of the mainline trackage.

Jim

OK - I reworked my plan and was able to maintain my original design but added a reverse loop for the "inner mainline" on the right side of the layout.   I also added a siding to the outer mainline near the yard.  The red track starting on the left side will incline at a 3% grade until it reaches the upper left corner then will remain level (across the top) until it reaches the upper right corner - then will decline at 3% to the end of the red track in the lower right corner.

Any feedback will be appreciated!

We have several switches and crossovers on grades, even a reverse loop track on a grade. It is steeper than our other grades, but it don't get used often, and it very short.

If you look at our layout, the track plan is very similiar with your 2 loops. The upper bridge on our layout is only there to create the reverse loop for the outside track. When I was designing the track plan, it was very important to me to be able to reverse directions on all the loops. I didn't want to get stuck running a train in only one direction.

On your track plan, I would suggest adding another set of crossovers before and after your reverse loop, from the outside track to the inside track, that way you can reverse direction on either loop. You also need a reverse loop on the left hand side because now you have no way to reverse back to the other direction. Your current configuration leaves you stuck running in one direction once you use that reverse loop that you just put in.

Paul,

Making this change on the left leg will enable either the inner or outer loop to reverse in this area. It will move the #5 turnouts (Blue), and will actually require 1 less #5 turnout. The reverse loop will be completed with O-72 turnouts (Green). The mainlines (Orange) climb to a height of 6" with a 3% grade. The height can be adjusted as you wish.

Thats a perfect scenario Stewart. The only limitation is the length of your train, because if its too long, you'll run into the back of your own train.

I like it Stewart - thanx for your expertise!  Back to the drawing board!

Paul

Stewart - I see 3 #5 turnouts (blue) on the left side of the layout - ok.  On the right side of the layout, as pictured in your first posting, aren't there 2 #5 turnouts pictured and an 072 wye?

Paul,

The track configuration on the right uses a #5 Right turnout and a Double Slip switch to achieve the reverse loop. The green piece of track is a 1/2 O-72. The orange pieces are custom cut pieces of track.

THANX AGAIN, STEWART - I CONSIDER YOU THE "WIZARD OF LAYOUT PLANNING"!

PAUL

Paul,

It should be the Wizard of Procrastinating as I should be packing for my move.

Here's another example of what can be done. I angled the right leg a little bit more to give more length to the climb. The width between the two legs if I recall is just over 2'.

Paul,

I forget, are you using AtlasO track or was it Gargraves/Ross? Also, are you still going to put a loop in the middle of the left leg?

Stewart - I'm using Atlas track - and I do plan to place an raised independent loop in the middle of the left leg - I attached a diagram of how I plan to isolate the trackage - this was done prior to your suggestions on how to put in the reverse loops - I'm going to work on that tonite.

Paul

Paul,

Take a look at these suggestions.

Stewart - great suggestions.  I shifted the leg by adding track, eliminated the 2 S curves.  But I wasn't quite sure about using "a right turnout here".  I thought you meant to eliminate the left turnout and replace it with a right turnout as I did.  If I am incorrect please let me know -

Paul

I would still put another set of cross overs on the right side of the layout to allow you to get from the outside track to the inside track, and then back out. The same principle as the cross overs on the left side.

Paul,

I'm trying to figure out why I can fit more track on the layout than you can. Are you drawing your layout in Scarm? If so, you actually have more room than you think. In Scarm, each square is 5" x 5", so your 16' leg as drawn is 160" as opposed to the 192" it should be. That's almost a 3 foot difference. If you are using Scarm, you need to redraw your baseboard. Go to Tools --> Toolbox --> Baseboard (rectangular) and enter 270 in the A box and 192 in the B box. Just draw the rectangle for now, and you can go back and redraw the shaped baseboard after you are done laying track.

The right leg of the layout looks better. You need to find a way to get a train from the outer loop to the inner loop to access the right side reverse loop. Otherwise, the train would have to travel the whole layout on both mainlines for almost the entire length of track before it can reverse directions.

I'm closing on my new house in less than an hour from now, so I will be away from the computer until late tonight. 

Stewart - I'm using Railmodeller software.  Each square is 1 ft.

Paul

Laidoffsick - Number 1 - your video is terrific - love the brewery.  I used Atlas #5 turnouts on the left side of the layout to enable outside track to access inside and visa versa.  You recommend placing a pair of crossovers on the right side also - why would I need them or should I say want them on the right side too?  

Paul

Paul,

This is why he recommends placing a crossover on the other side to join the outer and inner loops. Trace the route the trains have to take in each example below. In your example, the train would have to travel a good length of your layout to reverse. This will disrupt traffic on the inner loop until the train starting on the outer loop completes its maneuver. In my example, a train starting on the outer loop will require less time to complete the reversing manuever. A train running on the inside track, once it has cleared the crossing point, will not have to stop while the train on the outer loops completes its reversing.

Does this make sense now?

Stewart - right now I need time to "digest" this.  I seem to have developed a mental block and might need some time to clarify things in my mind - thanx for providing me with a visual - please be patient.

I did try to place an 072 turnout in the lower left portion of the layout to the right of the #5 turnouts as you show in your diagram but it wouldn't fit.  I could only place the 072 turnout to the left of the #5 turnouts and only by making the #5 turnouts go in the opposite direction.

Question:  Are you saying that I need 4 more #5 turnouts or a double slip on the right loop?

Paul,

Take all the time you need. Getting the track plan right during the planning phase makes building the layout easier.

The thought process behind my track diagrams is to get the trains coming from the outer mainline on to the inner mainline, through the reverse loop, and off of the inner mainline as fast as possible. The four #5 turnouts on the left leg are a carry-over from the previous plan that was worked on a few months ago. Since the track configuration has changed, those turnouts are not required in their present position and would serve the layout better elsewhere. Since I re-designed the left leg without the turnouts, an O-72 turnout can be placed there.

For the right side of the layout, the track needs to be configured to allow a train running on the outside mainline to enter the inside mainline prior to the start of the reverse loop. A train entering the inside mainline after the start of the reverse loop will have to travel around the layout before it can enter the reverse loop. A minimum of two turnouts and a double slip, or four turnouts will be required to complete the crossover and reverse loop on the right leg.

I have discovered why I was able to fit more track on the layout than you. When I reviewed my design, I found that I didn't account for the O-81 curved track. Do you need a minimum of O-72 curved track to run locomotives or rolling stock?

Paul,

I have to pack the computer for moving tomorrow, so here is my last idea to think about.

The thought process behind my track diagrams is to get the trains coming from the outer mainline on to the inner mainline, through the reverse loop, and off of the inner mainline as fast as possible.

With this in mind, I added a double slip switch to the left leg.

Pros:

• This is the closest point to the beginning of the reverse loop that the outer mainline can be.
• Trains departing the yard area can be quickly reversed and enter either the inner or outer mainline.

Cons:

• The lower level will be closer to the upper part of the layout.
• In order to accomodate the extra space, the curves will need to be O-72 on the outside mainline and O-63 on the inside mainline.

Again, this is something for you to consider for efficient reverse loops.

The size and shape of your layout is very similiar to ours. Having crossovers and  a reverse loop only on one side of the layout, greatly restricts your running options when running trains, especially multiple trains at once. Having cross overs and a reverse loop on both sides, also allows you to park a train on a mainline and then run another train around it using the crossovers. With that much mainline, trust me, you don't want to have all those restrictions because you will regret it later.

No to mention, if you only have one reverse loop, once you reverse direction....you're stuck going that way because theres no way to turn it around to the original direction.

If you look at our track plan, we have 2 reverse loops on the bottom level, and 2 reverse loops on the upper level. We have unlimited options when running multiple trains. In the ride along video I just posted, 1 train took 8 minutes to run on all 3 loops, and it didn't even make full laps of each of the upper loops. 

Spend that extra $$ on switches when you build it, you won't regret that. 

Laidoffsick - your explanation makes a lot of sense to me - thanx.  I'm going to work on my plan again today.  Did you see how I had to reverse the #5 turnouts in my last posting?  I had to do that because I couldn't fit the 072 turnout if the #5's were in their original position.  Is this configuration ok????

Stewart - I know you're busy with your move so I'll talk with you whenever you get settled.  In answer to your question on needing a minimum of 072 curves - no.  I use 081, 072 and 063 curves.  I'm going to reconfigure my plan today (I hope) using your idea on turnout positioning.  

Good luck on your move!

Laidoffsick/Stewart - as you can see I have tried every possible way of fitting in the track configuration that Stewart recommended on the left loop.  Unfortunately, no can do.  I am almost resigned to the idea to keep the outer loop completely independent.  I have found that by placing the #5 switch on top of the 072 switch then connecting the double crossover "pushes the trackage on the lower left loop down too far OR pushes the trackage on top of the layout too high.  

Thanx for all your ideas, help and recommendations - 

Paul

Yeah that is fine. It doesn't really matter which way the crossovers go on the left side, because if you put them on the right side of the layout also, you just put them in the other direction. So on the left side, you're going from the outside loop to the inside loop basically..... So on the right side of the layout, make the crossovers so that you are essentially going from the inside loop to the outside loop. 

I was able to work the left reverse loop with the #5 turnout in the original position that both you and Stewart recommended.  Could you take a look at it (left side only) and see what you think?  I'm going to work on the right side this afternoon.

thanx again

PS:  ignore the colors

OK - I placed the #5 LH turnouts on the right loop - do you see any problems on either loop?  

Both sides look good, BUT I would add another pair of cross overs to each side. You had a cross over right above your acces hatch on the left, but you took it out. I would put that back in, and put another on the right side as well.

Reason is, if you run a train with your finger around a loop, once you crossover from one loop to the other, you have to travel all the way to the other side of the layout to get back to the original loop you were on.

If you put the crossover back in that you took out, right above the access hatch on the left, you could park/stage a train on the inner loop on the curve, and run another train around it on the outter loop, and then back to the inner loop because the crossover allows you to get around the parked train on both ends without running all the way to the other side of the layout. Since you took out that crossover, you have to go all the way to the left side of the layout to get back on the same track, that prevents you from keeping a train running on that track.

I know it sounds confusing....I ran trains with my finger for days trying to make sure I had crossovers and reverse loops in the right place for maximum options. Even then, I wish I would of put another crossover in to access one of the reverse loops from both tracks, and moved another crossover a few feet to allow longer tracks to park there. I could still change it, but it's not that big of deal. 

I'll give your idea a little thought before I decide on another set of crossovers.  I understand your reasoning for another pair on both sides but I'm not sure I'm the type of "engineer" who would need to manipulate trains as some of the more experienced "trainers" might.  

I wasn't sure if placing the #5 LH turnouts on the right side loop was OK.  

Your input and help - much appreciated!

Paul

PS:  I'm going to do the "finger thing" tonite - I'm sure I'll need psychiatric care when I'm done!!!