Shelf Layout Planning/Questions

Hello Chad - I have a shelf layout. I am a toy train layout, so I use tubular track. My layout is TMCC and MTH / DCS and LionChief Plus, also some post war, conventional. I have several videos on my You Tube Channel, if you would like to see the layout.  There is also a feature article of my layout in O Gauge Railroading, June / July 2015 - Run 278, page 48 • "Multi Levels in the Man Cave".  One thing I would like to have a do over is, paint the walls, some kind of sky blue and paint in clouds.

I use a Lionel ZW, with 4 - 180 watt Lionel Bricks, that plug into the back of the ZW. This type of ZW is still in production. The ZW allows me to run the conventional, the old school way from a transformer.

I started this layout in 1983 and a major over hall in 1996, when we moved. Still working on the layout. A layout is never done.

Hope this helps, feel free to drop me an email. Look forward to watching your progress.

Hi Matt, congrats on finally getting to develop a layout to go with the railroadiana. I have limited space (8x10) and am developing two shelf layouts, one O gauge, one S gauge. I have the O gauge track in and running now and used O, O27 and Fastrak. I have two mainline loops on the shelf (for freight trains) and two elevated lines (for passenger trains) with an elevated station. The shelves form a large "U" and I built two bridges that swing up to bridge the gap. I run all conventional right now and, now that everything runs well, plan to begin modeling to make it look good. I plan to have an industrial area, a town and a rural area on the three sides. 

Southern6482 posted:

... While constructing, the thought hit me to install a shelf layout around the top of the room ...

Chad

That idea is more commonly called a "ceiling layout". If you search on "ceiling layout" (advanced search, exact phrase match) there has been extensive discussion on this previously. Might be a better starting point to reactivate one of those existing threads.

trainroomgary posted:

I use a Lionel ZW, with 4 - 180 watt Lionel Bricks, that plug into the back of the ZW. This type of ZW is still in production. The ZW allows me to run the conventional, the old school way from a transformer.

This would be the ZW-C, and no, it is no longer in production, nor has been for a while.  The current production ZW is the ZW-L, and the power bricks are now internal so there is no big brick and there is only one cord to plug in.  Of course this makes the ZW-L a lot heavier than the ZW-C was...

When I planned a ceiling layout (Never got built as I was able to get permission from the wife to make a standard layout in the back room!) it was only going to be about 8" wide for double track.  Remember, when up that high, narrow is better or else you won't able to see much of the train, and even less on the inner track.

Here is my planning.  O-72 Fastrack.   An O-96 easements leading into each end of the four corner curves (O-96  is the widest curve with Fastrack at present) With a possible S layout raised up 4" behind the O run.  6" squares on the diagram.

I am trying something different.   "Floating shelves"  don't have brackets above or below, and don't need strings or suspension.   I ordered 8 of these, should come tomorrow.   Then I will bridge the shelves (each is about 3' long and 8" deep with hardwood or half inch plywood sections cut to fit as you see in the diagram.   

I have installed these before, each supports 25lbs or so with no visible deformation with 5lbs at the edge.  So they might support more without twisting, but I am sharing with you what I have tested.

I am thinking to use a moulding underneath to visually tie each wall section together.  [the corners will be in the air, so no moulding there.]   All painted white to match the trim.

Not yet decided on the subroadbed beneath the fastrack, need to have something for sound.   I will probably insert foam strips inside the fastrack itself.   Perhaps cork roadbed.

I will post as I go along.   We shall see if this works out as I imagine.

This will be in our dining room, which has a 9' ceiling.   I will probably install the shelves about 2' below the ceiling.   I plan to line everything up with a laser level.

I had a similar layout.  Noise was an issue.  Next time I would use carpet pad between the track and the shelf.  The edge can be painted or hidden with some small molding for appearance.  Eliminating screws between the track and the shelf will also help.

It is possible the corners of the room may not be square.  In my case each corner was different.

Good luck!

Why is the track so far from the walls, are you planning on putting something between the track and walls?  Otherwise track center to the wall can be 4 inches.  Unless you haven't put the outer loop on yet.  Also, why FasTrack?  That isn't the ideal track for this due to noise.  Best to go with something without a builtin road bed.

You may want to check out this book. I found it very helpful. 

Consider what equipment you plan on running on your layout while deciding on track distance from the wall.  Some of the larger equipment does have significant overhang.  On the other hand, do you really want to run a big articulated that far from the floor.

Just thoughts.

sinclair posted:

trainroomgary posted:

I use a Lionel ZW, with 4 - 180 watt Lionel Bricks, that plug into the back of the ZW. This type of ZW is still in production. The ZW allows me to run the conventional, the old school way from a transformer.

This would be the ZW-C, and no, it is no longer in production, nor has been for a while.  The current production ZW is the ZW-L, and the power bricks are now internal so there is no big brick and there is only one cord to plug in.  Of course this makes the ZW-L a lot heavier than the ZW-C was...

When I planned a ceiling layout (Never got built as I was able to get permission from the wife to make a standard layout in the back room!) it was only going to be about 8" wide for double track.  Remember, when up that high, narrow is better or else you won't able to see much of the train, and even less on the inner track.

Yes: You are correct. I looked it up in the Lionel Track & Power 2016-2017 Catalog.  620 Watts for 4 channels, means that you will get 155 Watts per channel.  They still sell the 180 Watt Powerhouse.  Below are two screenshots from the catalog and my layout wire diagram.  Take a look at my wire diagram. Do you see any issues? Thanks Gary.

How the power gets to the rails on my layout. From the starting point.

1.  Starts at the homes power panel in the train room. Leaves on a dedicated 15 amp circuit. This line is also GFI. The panel also has a whole house surge protector.

2.  Enters the layouts control panel and enters a Kill Lighted Switch.

3.  Than the power goes to a junction box with 4 plugs, the outlet than breaks out into 4 power Surge / Arrest Protectors. Everything on the layout is plug into these strips with space left over.

4.  The power now enters 4 Lionel 180 Watt Powerhouse Bricks, on the end of each Lionel Brick is a male plug.  These 4 male plugs are plug into the back of a Lionel ZW-C Transformer.

5.  The power leaves the ZW on 14 Gauge Stranded Wire. Next it goes to the MTH / TIU.  There are 4 throttles - Left to right on the ZW - Track 4 / Track 3 / Track 2 / Track 1.

6.  The wire is attached to the Track Interface Unit on the Input Side with, Klein / Ideal Terminal Connectors. Track 4 to =  Fixed Voltage,  Track 3 to = Variable Voltage,   Track 2 to =  Variable Voltage, Track 1 to =  Fixed Voltage. This means that the large throttles on the ZW are fixed and the small inter throttles on the ZW-C are variable voltage.

7.  The power leaves the Track Interface Unit on the Out Put side and goes to several MTH 50-10-1020 24-Port Terminal Blocks, This block sends the current to the layout control panel that sends the power to the tracks and sidings, using single pole, single throw switches.

8 - Each main line has 3 blocks so I can run conventional locos, using the throttles on on the Lionel ZW. Old school operations. The 14 gauge wire is solder to the track about every 6 feet to the inside of the rails.

9 - The Lionel TMCC is wired to the TIU with a MTH cable 50-1032 and a 14 gauge ground wire.

• Each main line is about 100 feet of tubular track.

Chad,

The photo's show a double-tracked shelf layout I built last year.  Two loops of 100 feet, 7 3/4 inches from the ceiling.  Powered with a ZW that was bought by my father before 1960.  It provides plenty of power.  Since it is completely level, I can run four trains with 15 cars apiece at the same time, two on each track.  There is a small yard, with five switches.  Using DCS, one TIU, and four MTH engines.  You gotta keep an eye on them even so because they will never run at exactly the same speeds.  Within a half hour, one will clearly be gaining on another.  Gargraves track because it is attractive, bendable, and cheaper in bulk.  Roadbed is Midwest Products.  You can hear the trains rolling along, but, the electronic engine sound on the new stuff is much louder.  I turn those down, but you can still hardly hear the trains overhead with the sound off.

I used large L brackets, plus smaller ones where applicable.  Sorry, no supports are connected to the ceiling.  Most of the wood is 8 X 10, 3/4 inch pine.  I think it looks much better than plywood and doesn't require as much support.  You have to cut curves in the corners and attach those with dowels and glue.  I don't glue the long boards together because I want some allowable movement and the ability to make adjustments.  I do dowel them, but no glue.  It is very sturdy.

 I ordered 80 feet of 7 1/4 inch high backdrop, two city and two country, which looks good and hides all the supports.  I hung the backdrop with velcro, so again, no glue.  It won't move or sag.  

Wiring is hidden on top between the inside track and the backdrop.  I only need one bus line for each main track, with connections near the four corners.  Another bus runs the yard and accessories.  They all drop down at one spot above the console that houses the TIU and ZW.   Miller Engineering signs need another line, but their power distribution board runs on separate AC with their 4.5V converter.  

To light the mains, I used rope lights instead of the thin LED strips, which I use on my table layout.  They are much bulkier, but give a soft, striated glow that resembles street lighting in the city scenes.  Also, they just plug into a regular outlet with no extra wiring or power supply.  If you keep them in the back, they are invisible but provide a nice lighted track scene.

Underneath, I stained and sealed it three times, sanding after each coat.  The bottom needs to look like the rest of the wood that supports it.  At this height, it is completely out of the way and completely viewable.   Also, anyone that wants to take it down will have little trouble doing so.

Our poker group meets every other Friday, and the boys can't take their eyes off those trains going by, at the bar, or at the table, or even watching the ballgame on one of the couches.

Best wishes for your success.

Jerry

Thank you all for this very informative post. It has been most helpful in my research/design. I will mock something up and hopefully post my progress over the next few months. 

Jerry, that is nice work, fits right in with the room décor. I like the backdrops and the use of rope lighting, though I'd probably opt for some of the newer multi-colored strip LED lighting they sell today. I'm thinking of adding a ceiling layout to the bedroom-turned-train-room after I get my layout done. I'd really like to add one around our open living room/dining room/kitchen/family room, but the 10' ceilings and all the corners/angles give me pause. Still it's always something to think about for the future.

Ken, I like the idea of using floating shelves and tying them together with the pieces of plywood. I'd probably be inclined to fashion some custom bridges, but I like the idea of the protective wall in the corners. When I see these designs, I'm always torn between filling in the corners and adding landscaping or leaving them open.

Chad, I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Good luck!

Dave,

Here is one room of my table layout.  It shows floating shelves, with plywood in the corners.  It's still under construction and I am stuck with building it around the rooms because we do a lot of entertaining and the rooms need to stay functional.   Hardly prototypical, but when the trains run at four different levels, the crowd goes wild, as they say.

You can see the brackets that go through the backdrop with only a two inch slit that can't be seen, even close up.  I glued painted cardboard over them to make them look thicker.  They are mounted on the studs with shelving receptors and are very secure.  Since I couldn't get at them to take them out from underneath, I decided to make use of them. 

The modern LED lighting is underneath the third level.  Not as soft (warm white) as the rope light, and no striations, which look cool on the overhead. 

You can see how I managed the corners.  Not elegant, but stable.  I also recommend buying the gargraves 32 curved track for these.  They are quite precise and the trains like them a lot.  Not much room for landscaping, but you can do a small mountain/cliff or two and mount some cool accessories.

Also, you can see the opportunity it gave me to build custom bridges.  They are painted to match the Santa Fe F-3's.

I have a long way to go on this upgrade (two full rooms), but adding two levels and overcoming all the problems O gauge trains present is most of the fun. 

Jerry