Suggestions For A Tinplate Layout - Size And Track Plans

You might consider using the 5-rail track that others on the forum use, as then one could run O or Standard gauge on the same loop and you could also run loops of O gauge inside of the outer loop.  

Personally, I have an 8' x 20' layout with a loop of Standard gauge on the outside and 3 loops of O gauge on the inside.  

My layout does not incorporate any switches, so it is comprised of 3 ovals and a dog-bone shaped loop for the inner-most oval.

NWL

This is my current tinplate layout at the Roanoke Valley Model Railroad Club. The left side if the page is in one room and that is the original layout I built. The black line is a wall between the rooms. Prior to going into the other room the loops connected before the wall.

Here is a video before the expansion. There's a lot of action. I wasn't unhappy with this layout as is; however when they offered the space I decided to act upon it.

Here is the last video with the expansion (yes the table is rotated).

Scott Smith

Currently my Tinplate layout is 7x10. All track, switches and lock-ons are vintage Lionel . The outside “O” loop is O72. The next loop is STD with operating 222 switches. This allows me a choice of 2 STD consist to run. The inside “O” loop is O31 with four 021 switches. This allows me two running options. The first is to run two small “O” consist of either 252, 253 or 259. The second is to run one train as a outside loop. I wanted a white table because I like the tinplate color contrast against the white. also when I switch to wintertime the white base is my snow.

My table in on casters that allow me to roll it away from the back wall to gain access to that side and also the display shelves.

I’m still on the hunt for some additional tinplate stations, villas and bungalows for the center. However, the plasticville works for me currently. Winter time table converts to that theme using Dept 56 style buildings.

Hope this helps!

NWL, Scott, and Rich,

Thanks for all of the excellent suggestions and the gorgeous videos and pics.  You have really created some very attractive and "playful" Tinplate layouts.

NWL,

That sounds like a great size for a Standard Gauge outer loop, with the ability to run 4 trains simultaneously.  Your idea for the 5 rail track is a good one.  I have a recollection of some Forum members having a little difficulty operating the larger SG locos with the "lower profile" 5 rail track.  Perhaps the 5 rail tubular might be better for these larger locos.  After reading your post, I did a little searching for the 5 rail tubular, but will have to do a more thorough search.

Scott,

Thanks for the detailed layout plans, and the two wonderful videos.  Both layouts are visually pleasing, and offer a tremendous amount of continuous action.  I was planning on "trial and error" for the track plan, but may have to settle for a specific table size, and consider design software.  You've reminded me that multiple levels are both appealing from an operating standpoint, and solve a lot of space problems by expanding the available real estate for multiple independent runs.  The selection of operating trains is also awesome!

Rich,

Thanks for the multiple pics.  That's both a very attractive layout, and, a very handsome train room.  I hadn't thought about using a white table for something other than a Christmas layout, or, a winter themed layout.  You are absolutely correct that the white table really allows the Tinplate trains and accessories to showcase their vivid colors.  I'm now leaning heavily in favor of adopting your excellent table color suggestion.  Another nice feature of your layout is that the the switches allow you to simultaneously keep other trains on the layout, which is a nice operating bonus.

Thanks again to each of you.

I do use tubular track on my layout and have only seen the 5 rail track as tubular.  Steve Eastman runs it on his layout, as well as some others.  

NWL

@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

  I was planning on "trial and error" for the track plan, but may have to settle for a specific table size, and consider design software. 

Let's talk about the software. My track design was done with the RealTrax Layout software MTH use to give away to club members. It had the advantage of being free. For design purposes 72 in O-Gauge RealTrax is the same as 72 Standard Gauge.

Scott Smith

Dennis,

Consider using the concept of "forced perspective" in the design of your two gauge layout. Specifically, by placing all Standard Gauge track on the outside of all O gauge track, you can create the illusion that the depth of your layout is much greater than it actually is.

Bob Nelson

Dennis,

I started in Std. gauge about 10 years ago.  Initially I ran occasionally on the floor.  I spent a few years drawing layouts before I finally  built my layout .  I have included several of the proposed layout plans in the attached PDF. The JPEG on this screen doesn't show the details. They were drawn with CAD and feature USA track's, 42, 57 and 72 inch curves.  My first thought was the 5 x 10 shown on the top row  and I finally built my 8 x 12  layout based on the drawing on the far left.  As you can see I like 90 degree crossings.

Hope this helps!

Jim Z

@scott.smith posted:

Let's talk about the software. My track design was done with the RealTrax Layout software MTH use to give away to club members. It had the advantage of being free. For design purposes 72 in O-Gauge RealTrax is the same as 72 Standard Gauge.

Scott Smith

Thanks Scott!  I had totally forgotten about the Real Trax layout software.  Over the years, I had several versions, so I'll have to see if I still have any left.  That's a great tip regarding the O-Gauge RealTrax and the SG.

Thanks Bob.  I would not have considered "forced perspective" for this layout, but, that's a great idea.  

Thanks Jim,

Those CAD drawings will be very helpful. As you indicated, the attached file using the Joint Photographic Experts Group format is much easier to compare and evaluate.  For my track plan, I can see how having a figure 8 for the center "run" would certainly add interest, although it would significantly affect the types of interior structures to be used -- not necessarily adversely though.

Unlike my permanent O Gauge layout, I think that I will keep this layout more "fluid" for a period of time, so I can easily make changes to the track plan, or the placement of the structures without tearing up a lot of finished wiring and scenic elements.  Standard gauge is especially suited to a "drop" and then "run" strategy.

Finally, you don't happen to know if USA Track is still available, do you?  I did a brief search yesterday for USA Track without too much success.

Thanks again!

@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

happen to know if USA Track is still available, do you?  I did a brief search yesterday for USA Track without too much success.

Email Kirk at standardgaugetrack@gmail.com

He was migrating to a new web host this spring.  I'm not sure why the site is still down.

@MikeH posted:

Email Kirk at standardgaugetrack@gmail.com

He was migrating to a new web host this spring.  I'm not sure why the site is still down.

Thanks Mike.  That's awesome!

Further answering....Thanks, Mike.  Kirk emailed back with pdf files in lieu of an online catalog.

Cordially,

Dennis

For a layout with standard gauge and O gauge  - Size:  Big, Very Big

Forced perspective is a really good idea, especially since standard gauge is so big.  That is why the O gauge is farthest away.  I didn't really have a detailed plan, but I started by defining benchwork depth and height.  I built the benchwork first and glued carpet padding to the top.   I put down the loop closest to the inside edge and went from there.  If I waited to do a detailed plan, no track would be laid yet.  I used mostly USA track, some new, some used.  I like tubular track, I can cut it any length to suit my track layout.  I considered having grades on the standard gauge loops, but decided against it and put the grades on the O gauge loop.

Thanks for the wonderful pics, and the explanation of your planning and construction.  Your efforts turned into an excellent layout, with great size and operating capabilities.  Also, the train room itself adds significantly to the layout itself, both in terms of visual appeal, and the expansive viewing areas.  putting the grades on the O gauge loop was also likely the best decision given the heft of many standard gauge locos and consists.

I'm sure that kids of all ages are thrilled to go into your train room and watch the trains run.

@Mr Fixit posted:

For a layout with standard gauge and O gauge  - Size:  Big, Very Big

Forced perspective is a really good idea, especially since standard gauge is so big.  That is why the O gauge is farthest away.  I didn't really have a detailed plan, but I started by defining benchwork depth and height.  I built the benchwork first and glued carpet padding to the top.   I put down the loop closest to the inside edge and went from there.  If I waited to do a detailed plan, no track would be laid yet.  I used mostly USA track, some new, some used.  I like tubular track, I can cut it any length to suit my track layout.  I considered having grades on the standard gauge loops, but decided against it and put the grades on the O gauge loop.

Love your layout and the way you creatively incorporated the tinplate bridges. I'd like to see more photos if you have them anywhere.

A couple added questions:

1.  Knowing that wider radius is better, would the larger standard gauge locos look good on 57" curves?

2. Also,  knowing that a greater distance to the edge of the table from the outermost mainline is often better, what minimum distance would you leave from the table edge to the outer rail?

While these questions may elicit some obviously subjective responses, what dimensions worked well for you?  

I was thinking of starting out with a 6' x 8' table, with the option of going to an 8' x 8' total area, using at least one bridge.  The 8' x 8' would still leave me with very wide aisles that could be "harvested" at a later date to expand the layout using track against the 2 outer walls and bridges

Thanks again!

Here are pictures of engines on the 57" curves and on my one half circle of 72".  As for distance from the edge, mine varies based on space available.

57"

72"

57"

72"

57"

And just for grins, 42"

Those photos are perfect for my purposes!  Thanks for taking all of the time to plan and stage them.  I feel a lot more comfortable now with the choice of radius, and with a less expansive distance from the edge of the table.  The 42" shots will give me even more flexibility for the interior of the layout.

Years ago, I had a large indoor LGB layout with all European LGB trains.  Over a two year period, I had never had a single derailment running my LGB trains.  One day, I was a bit inattentive as I fiddled with something in an adjacent room.  Naturally, my largest loco derailed at that moment and crashed to the floor, with some damage to the front of the loco.

 So, I've been a little hesitant since then to "live on the edge".

Again, many thanks for your very detailed and helpful pictures.  

I guess it depends on if you are running modern tinplate with cruise control or vintage stuff and also on the radius of the curve, but I feel safer on outside curves with a little space an an actual guard rail of some sort.

My derailments always occur at switches (due to operator error) and the power trips off before anything gets near the edge. Not foolproof, but good so far.  All my tinplate engines are PS2, so speeds are under control.  I would have put some trains on the floor if I did not have interlocks on the bridge into the room.  All the curves except the one pictured would tend to put derailments toward the wall. The worst wreck so far (again due to operator error) was when an O gauge train fell off the upper level into the path of a standard gauge train.  I hit the red button on the remote, so there wasn't any damage.  Makes me wish I had some not so nice trains just to stage some really great wrecks! : )

@Mr Fixit posted:

My derailments always occur at switches (due to operator error) and the power trips off before anything gets near the edge. Not foolproof, but good so far.  All my tinplate engines are PS2, so speeds are under control.  I would have put some trains on the floor if I did not have interlocks on the bridge into the room.  All the curves except the one pictured would tend to put derailments toward the wall. The worst wreck so far (again due to operator error) was when an O gauge train fell off the upper level into the path of a standard gauge train.  I hit the red button on the remote, so there wasn't any damage.  Makes me wish I had some not so nice trains just to stage some really great wrecks! : )

I caught up with your build thread. Very nice! I particularly like the drawers you put in for storage and the "tinplate" bridges as i mentioned earlier. I myself would still consider padding out the bench work where the track is right up against the edge, if for no other reason than looks and being able to take photos without seeing the fascia. You certainly have the room. But since you have added control buttons to the fascia, that ship may have sailed.

I had not thought about padding the fascia, that is a good idea.  I don't consider the control button locations idea, especially when visitors are present, so I could move them or recess them if I wanted to make the fascia match the padded surface.  I have considered painting the fascia to match, but it is not high on my priority list yet.  Some buttons should be operable by visitors, I may paint these yellow and cover the others, possibly by recessing them slightly.  I am not afraid of modifying the layout to make it better!

My apologies for the USA TRACK LLC website being down.  We were trying to do an update just before the pandemic started, and crashed the site.  My “IT consultant” (my son) hasn’t been able to help me get it restarted because of “social distancing”.   I hope to have a new website launched using Squarespace soon.  In the meantime you can still reach me at standardgaugetrack@gmail.com or at kirklindvig@mac.com.  I will email you the current catalog.

BTW, I think “Mr Fixit” has the best approach for building a standard gauge layout (if you have the room).  Considering the size of standard gauge, and the fact that these trains run much better on wider diameter curves, an around the walls layout design is functionally superior to an island design.  The ideal layout room has a staircase that delivers you to the middle of the layout. An around the walls layout minimizes the reach and maximizes the  length of the loops.

The original 42” diameter curves really are too small for many standard trains.  I suggest using 72 for most corners, and using 57 or 87 with 72 for double track.  7-1/4” center-to-center track spacing has proven itself on Standard Gauge Module Association displays.  

Also, make the investment in Ross Custom Switches for Standard Gauge.  A little pricy, but worth every penny.

Have fun, and don’t hesitate to email me with any questions.  Advice is free! 😊

@SGMA1 posted:

The original 42” diameter curves really are too small for many standard trains.  I suggest using 72 for most corners, and using 57 or 87 with 72 for double track.  7-1/4” center-to-center track spacing has proven itself on Standard Gauge Module Association displays.  

Also, make the investment in Ross Custom Switches for Standard Gauge.  A little pricy, but worth every penny.

Have fun, and don’t hesitate to email me with any questions.  Advice is free! 😊

Thanks Kirk!  I will definitely take advantage of your offer for advice.  Unfortunately, an "around the room" layout is not possible for my particular layout, although that would definitely be my preference for the reasons that you have stated.  

Your advice regarding using 72" diameter track will likely determine the outer perimeter of the layout, although I'll have to give that some more thought.  

What about 57" diameter track for the larger SG trains, and 42" diameter track for the double track, with only the smaller locos, say from sets,  being used on the interior?

Finally, is there a track planning software program that has proven particularly useful with your track, or, by your customers?

Thanks again,

Dennis

@Mr Fixit posted:

I had not thought about padding the fascia, that is a good idea.  I don't consider the control button locations idea, especially when visitors are present, so I could move them or recess them if I wanted to make the fascia match the padded surface.  I have considered painting the fascia to match, but it is not high on my priority list yet.  Some buttons should be operable by visitors, I may paint these yellow and cover the others, possibly by recessing them slightly.  I am not afraid of modifying the layout to make it better!

I wasn't thinking of actual padding- just some more wood where the track is right next to the edge. It might look a bit more finished with a more consistent track setback from the edge. It's a great concept with the around the room plan and the elevates o gauge in the back. Have you ever seen Chuck Brasher's standard gauge layout? Similar idea.

Scott kindly posted the following helpful information above:

"..My track design was done with the RealTrax Layout software MTH use to give away to club members. It had the advantage of being free. For design purposes 72 in O-Gauge RealTrax is the same as 72 Standard Gauge."

Do Forum Members have any recommendations as to track planning software for standard gauge?  

I see what you mean about the track setback.  One of my criteria for the layout was to keep a very "open" feel to the room.  I wanted to keep the two sides of the layout at least 48" apart.  This was one of those compromises we often have to make on our layouts.  Most of the above pictures are at the location where the layout is the most shallow, it was easier to show the overhang where the track was near the edge.  I could always add more layout where the track is near the edge - easier than cutting some off.

@Mr Fixit posted:

I see what you mean about the track setback.  One of my criteria for the layout was to keep a very "open" feel to the room.  I wanted to keep the two sides of the layout at least 48" apart.  This was one of those compromises we often have to make on our layouts. 

The layout looks great with the choices that you have made.  And, as you note, virtually every layout necessitates compromises.  Also, later changes are often possible after operating the trains for a while.  

Real railroads often have to accommodate speed differentials due to track placement necessitated by the many compromises made in  building the road or, in the nature of the motive power itself.  So, having to slow down for a curve is quite prototypical, and, is often made far easier by some of our modern motive power that can be remotely moderated with command control.

As an Eagles fan, I may, "Take It To The Limit", and, live on the edge.  That will also give me more room in the aisles.

I am not concerned about speeds on the inner loop near the edge (maybe I should be).  The track is smooth and doesn't move.  The loop closer to the wall has tighter turns and more switches, so I usually limit the speed to somewhere around 30 mph, especially for the bigger engines.  That is by DCS measurement - it is probably much faster by scale.  

Hi Dennis,

If space is limited, using 42 curves inside 57 (7.25” center-to-center) curves will allow you to run most vintage trains.  Some MESG trains (modern era standard gauge) require 72 diameter curves, including the Lionel Hiawatha and Vanderbilt sets.

Kirk

@SGMA1 posted:

Hi Dennis,

If space is limited, using 42 curves inside 57 (7.25” center-to-center) curves will allow you to run most vintage trains.  Some MESG trains (modern era standard gauge) require 72 diameter curves, including the Lionel Hiawatha and Vanderbilt sets.

Kirk

Hi Kirk,

That's very helpful information.   Given the information that you have provided, I should be able to do the initial build of the table at 6' x 8'.  Usually, I have track that I can use to "try out" the initial track plan, but for standard gauge, I only have the smaller radius curves that were packed into various set boxes.

@MikeH posted:

Email Kirk at standardgaugetrack@gmail.com

He was migrating to a new web host this spring.  I'm not sure why the site is still down.

Thanks to each of you for the great suggestions and references.

As noted previously, USA Track sounds like the way to go based on the the recommendations above.  In this regard, Kirk has been very helpful, and I'll be purchasing the USA Track for a two-track mainline on a 6' x 8' table.  These mainlines will be comprised of STD 57 track on the outside, and, STD 42 on the inner loop.  

Since I have secured the right of way for additional space, I can easily expand the layout at a later date.  Based on the photos of Rich's colorful Tinplate layout above, I'll start with a white tabletop.  As Rich notes, the white contrasts well with the Tinplate colors, and will easily allow a switch to a wintertime layout around the Holidays.  This will be a nice change of pace, and will show off the trains and buildings nicely.

Again, many thanks for all of the help!

@Rich Wiemann posted:

Currently my Tinplate layout is 7x10. All track, switches and lock-ons are vintage Lionel . The outside “O” loop is O72. The next loop is STD with operating 222 switches. This allows me a choice of 2 STD consist to run. The inside “O” loop is O31 with four 021 switches... [Emphasis Added]

 

Rich,

I presume that your interior Standard Gauge loop is 042?  That's probably the obvious answer, but my layout - at least conceptually - is starting to resemble a downsized version of your layout, which is quite attractive.  

So far, I haven't committed to the two switches.  That will leave the interior of the STD 42 loop for either O-Gauge, or, some of the larger standard gauge accessories.  Much like a Christmas layout, I plan to allow the opportunity to alter the layout at different times.  

I have the Hiawatha set. It runs on O-57 track. As I recall, the box says O-42. This set requires large side clearances for the sharp curves.

I have seen the Vanderbuilt set run on O57 also.

@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 yes your presumption is correct on that STD loop. Looking forward to seeing yours as it progresses. 

@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

Rich,

I presume that your interior Standard Gauge loop is 042?  That's probably the obvious answer, but my layout - at least conceptually - is starting to resemble a downsized version of your layout, which is quite attractive.  

So far, I haven't committed to the two switches.  That will leave the interior of the STD 42 loop for either O-Gauge, or, some of the larger standard gauge accessories.  Much like a Christmas layout, I plan to allow the opportunity to alter the layout at different times.  

@Rich Wiemann posted:

Currently my Tinplate layout is 7x10. All track, switches and lock-ons are vintage Lionel . The outside “O” loop is O72. The next loop is STD with operating 222 switches. This allows me a choice of 2 STD consist to run. The inside “O” loop is O31 with four 021 switches. This allows me two running options. The first is to run two small “O” consist of either 252, 253 or 259. The second is to run one train as a outside loop. I wanted a white table because I like the tinplate color contrast against the white. also when I switch to wintertime the white base is my snow.

My table in on casters that allow me to roll it away from the back wall to gain access to that side and also the display shelves.

I’m still on the hunt for some additional tinplate stations, villas and bungalows for the center. However, the plasticville works for me currently. Winter time table converts to that theme using Dept 56 style buildings.

Hope this helps!

Thanks to everyone for all of the great photos of the beautiful layouts that each of you have built.  Your comments and suggestions are also very informative and helpful.  Since my space more closely approximates that depicted in Rich's excellent photos above, I have decided to start with an 8' X 6' 3"  tabletop layout.

After a long summer hiatus (the sunniest ever in our area -- during my lifetime anyway!), I have completed the table construction, and have painted the table white. (My O gauge layout has more traditional colors.)  Given the bright colors of tinplate trains and buildings, the color contrasts should be very eye catching against the white background.  Also, as Rich notes, the layout can be converted to a winter-Christmas layout at a later time if desired.

I decided to utilize USA TRACK LLC as strongly recommended by Forum Members in a companion thread.  As also noted, Kirk of USA TRACK is wonderful to work with, and has been tremendously helpful, even in planning the layout.  He has also been very patient in answering my numerous questions as we have gone through the process.  

As to the layout itself, for starters, I decided to "keep it simple", with two loops of track, and can expand later if desired.   The local fire department can rest easily though because my simple layout won't hold a candle to any of the beautiful layouts in the pictures above!

Dennis I look forward to seeing your pics....glad I was able able to help inspire your layout. Just remember its yours and you are the one who will be enjoying it.