T&P F7's - Houston we have a problem - A big problem.

What the heck Lionel....these and the NYO&W units. Same silver too on all of them. Looks like I'm canceling my T&P order. Thats not even close. I was really excited to finally get some legacy T&P stuff.

SEND THEM BACK,

Dave

Joe, I know nothing about the T&P. Googling around, one might be able to discuss the gray versus silver, but my gosh the blue isn’t even close. As delivered, they are cobalt blue which isn’t even in the same shade zip code as navy blue. 

What really sucks is the same thing that sucks for the fella that is frustrated with the silver metallic (versus gray) NYO&W units - it’s not like sending them back solves all the problems (although you should since this will drive you nuts every time you look at them). Unlike Berkshires and Hudsons that have appeared in 357 straight catalogs, it may be years and years before your roadname resurfaces. Again, this sucks. 

Rider,

There was never any silver on these period. I already emailed Ryan Kunkle to see if new shells will be issued. I have also emailed Nassau hobby to start the return.

Yes T&P is hard to get and unless Atlas gets back in the game or 3rd rail makes them probably will not get correct ones. Legacy is great but these would have to be run in the dark to enjoy.

Lionel should get these colors right.  I do think that the cobalt blue and silver is an attractive fantasy scheme, however.  NH Joe

A two color screw-up, quality control was out to lunch during the color selection.

  Bill T.

That is a shame... maybe an opportunity for someone who can custom paint... 

After paying almost $900 for a AA I would not pay money for a custom painter to correct Lionel's mistake. 

Send them back, that is the only way Lionel will learn. 

Dave

I think Lionel needs a big management change, these guys are not getting it done.

I'm done fixing Lionel's mistakes as the end user. Lionel needs to fix Lionel's mistakes. This isn't rocket science. It's paint codes.

Lionel should stick to steam engines that are painted Black. Cant screw that up too easily.

This seems like such an easily avoidable mistake. Makes one wonder how it could happen? Were the wrong color specs given to the factory or did the factory mix the wrong color on its own?

Very strange indeed. 

Lionel has almost always leaned heavily toward toys. These new body shells are truly remarkable, as are some of the steamers (I have a 2-rail Lionel FEF that I consider Scale).  But nowhere have I seen that Lionel is henceforth committed 100% to truly accurate scale models.  Sunset seems to be - and you get to choose.

I'm sorry these aren't "toys" not at $900 for the A-A set, it's well intended these would be done correctly or you might as well buy a semi-scale set for less than half this price.  Huge difference here and there's NO justification on having people Pre-order these (commit to buy) then drastically change the overall colors to something considered bizarre.  

AlanRail posted:

Lionel should stick to steam engines that are painted Black. Cant screw that up too easily.

I take it you didn't buy a Mogul............

bob2 posted:

Lionel has almost always leaned heavily toward toys. These new body shells are truly remarkable, as are some of the steamers (I have a 2-rail Lionel FEF that I consider Scale).  But nowhere have I seen that Lionel is henceforth committed 100% to truly accurate scale models.  Sunset seems to be - and you get to choose.

These people are right to be upset. What you are implying is that Lionel can claim some sort of justification because of their history, and that Lionel customers should suck it up and be satisfied with anything they get.

You might think that, but Lionel certainly shouldn’t, not if they want to compete at this price point...

Jeff C

"Lionel has almost always leaned heavily toward toys."

I do not mean to be rude - too much of that on all forums, everywhere - but where have you been since 1990?

Jeff78rr posted:

I'm sorry these aren't "toys" not at $900 for the A-A set, it's well intended these would be done correctly or you might as well buy a semi-scale set for less than half this price.  Huge difference here and there's NO justification on having people Pre-order these (commit to buy) then drastically change the overall colors to something considered bizarre.  

You'd be glad to repaint them in the right colors, right Jeff?

As I noted before, it would be interesting to know where the problem occurred in the full design and manufacturing process.  No doubt, Lionel already knows the answer to the question and is taking action to see that it doesn’t happen again. 

Imagine somebody is in mighty hot water if they are even still employed.

In the meantime, about all pre-orderers can do is get a refund, unless Lionel decides to make correct- colored shells and swap them out. 

WOW!!!   Really Lionel?!

I have to say I just do NOT trust Lionel to get it right anymore when it comes to Texas Railroads. They messed up the colors on the Missouri Pacific GP35, Sd40-2, PA's and now these T&P F7's. The also messed up on the MKT SD40-2.

They also got the DMIR SD38's wrong, and the NYO&W F7's as well. I'm sure there are more examples. This seems like a very bad trend in bad quality control.

These are not toys per se. These are Lionel's "Top of the Line." They are models that we spend our hard earned money on. We should expect and be delivered better when they keep charging more and more for these models. Shame on you Lionel!

As Bob2 said we do have a choice. I plan on giving more of my money to companies I trust. Lionel, I do not trust you!

Atlas and Sunset I hope you do more MoPac and Katy models in the future. Lionel, I hope you are listening!

Those of you seemingly suggesting this is much ado about nothing need to read the wording in the catalog:

What was delivered does not meet the "Legacy" standard. We're not talking about lowered tiered product, this is "top of the line" product here.

-Greg 

Texas Eagle 77 posted:

I see my original post got deleted... I did not bash anyone except the culprits in question. Lionel

I do not trust Lionel to get it right anymore when it comes to Texas Railroads. They messed up the colors on the Missouri Pacific GP35, Sd40-2, PA's and now these T&P F7's. The also messed up on the MKT SD40-2.

These are not toys per se. They are models that we spend our hard earned money on. We should expect and be delivered better when they keep charging more and more for these models. Shame on you Lionel!

As Bob2 said we do have a choice. I plan on giving more of my money to companies I trust. Lionel, I do not trust you!

Atlas and Sunset I hope you do more MoPac and Katy models in the future. Lionel, I hope you are listening!

Yep...I deleted it and then sent you an email because your response was using filthy words/abbreviations...not tolerated here...don't do it again! 

It’s a sad state of affairs when a big chunk of change is laid out for a new loco and you get whatever paint hue is still on hand.

  I always thought it was mainly Canadian livery items that suffered this fate . Very perplexing that little to no time is invested to ensure the correct colour(s) on models

  So far I have seen gross errors in regards to:

  CPR Tuscan(MTH, Lionel)

  CPR Steam Grey(MTH Weaver)

  CPR Diesel Grey(MTH 3rd Rail)

  CP Rail Action Red(everybody except MPC Lionel)

   CNR Green(MTH 3rd Rail)

    I have chosen to redecorate locos and rolling stock to avoid being irritated lol

  I feel your pain. unfortunately for us north of the border, the cost and possible damage to return such an item is a huge financial concern.

  Fyi

I have recently seen a new line of paint made for Canadian modellers and even there the got it wrong!

    If you can return it go for it!

Rant over ! lol

Al

Craignor posted:

I think Lionel needs a big management change, these guys are not getting it done.

From what I read on this forum = seems like the only justification for Lionel's continued existence is as competition to keep MTH, Atlas, Sunset, etc. on their toes!  This Lionel Team is dropping the balls faster than we can catch them. 

Matt,

I hear you but I wanted T&P this time around. 3rd rail is doing F3's. T&P did not own any F3's. I already own 6 or so Beautiful Atlas Missouri Pacific F3's as seen in the picture above. So I am really not in the market for Mopac F3's. I thought about Scott's first announced F5's, but they have been changed to F3's now. 

I have purchased from Scott: T&P and Mopac E8's, Mopac Alco PA's, T&P 2-10-4 and have on order Mopac E6's and T&P E7's. May need to jump on the Mopac E7's as well. He has saved the day for the T&P / Mopac Guy!

Also have Atlas T&P Swamp Holly GP7's (pride of my fleet) and the mentioned above Mopac F3's.

So I am set pretty good and the T&P F7's would have finished off the fleet minus a few more wanted swamp holly's and a few blue/grey Geeps.

Maybe Atlas can get back in action or Scott do another round of F7's.

Atlas and Sunset are the only ones worth the time and money. LIonel and MTH are for casual modeler, I don't know why people keep putting their hopes in Lionel. 

Originally posted by Dave Warburton:
"..As I noted before, it would be interesting to know where the problem occurred in the full design and manufacturing process. No doubt, Lionel already knows the answer to the question and is taking action to see that it doesn’t happen again..."

ROTFLOL! I have yet to see this happen!

Check out these previous "Legacy Losers"...

Wrong color for DLGE. Why the Steam Generator roof details for a RR that didn't have steam generators in their F7's?

Are those Nose lifting lugs on the rear end?

How about the wrong fuel tank and skirting for the road number?

And are those dangling air tanks that I see?

The difference between the F3 and F7s are not huge so maybe he could pull off a tandem F7 run. Enough emails expressing interest to him will get you a sure answer

I can see this thread being shut down. York should be a lot of fun in Oct.

IMO, it sounds like someone messed up.

I could believe in “forgive and forget” if Lionel made that spectacular a goof on their basic/entry level F-3s but, as was said earlier, they boo-booed on their high-end models. IMO, buyers have a right to be upset.

I doubt much more could be added to either of the F3 threads that's either new or helpful. I'll be interested to see what if any response from Lionel there is. If we hear nothing that unfortunate. And yes York will be interesting. 

I wouldn’t count on much reaction from Lionel at York in October.

I was at the TCA York Week Museum event on Wednesday in April, right after or in the midst of the 21” car debacle. The presentation was business as usual, no mention of any trouble or problems, I was a little surprised. After the presentation there was a Q and A session, there were several questions about the flaw ridden 21” cars, and other recent mistakes, the response from Lionel was a glib talking point I heard several times then and at their booth: “Lionel produces over a thousand SKUs a year, a few items don’t work out”. They must have been coached to respond with that, because I heard it several times from different people at Lionel.

I was surprised with the cavalier attitude, they really didn’t seem to care.

Blue Streak posted:

Okay I have looking forward to these for a long time. But I have to sent them back - very disappointed.

Atlas next to the new Lionel. I am not sure why Lionel can never get the Blue right on any Mopac or T&P diesel. But now we have silver instead of the correct shade of gray/white.

Joe

Hi Joe,  I was wondering if this color scheme from the Lionel Texas and Pacific Eagle Passenger Set from 2001 or so, is more correct.  This was the best picture I could find.  They clearly used white instead of silver.  I understand your frustration.  

I’d be interested in hearing about that color scheme, too, Dave.

I know Lionel made a scale Mohawk/Mountain type in late 1992 in that same scheme. The colors look reasonably accurate, but I’m not sure...

The Mohawk colors are pretty darn good.  None of the others (including the JC Penny Pacific) have been good.

Why can't they put a real T&P olive paint scheme on a steam engine if the blue is so darned hard for them?

A few points:

• Reinforces my preference to see the product before I buy.  This is a sticky point on BTO items.
• This problem is not just with one manufacturer.
• I have not purchased items because the color shown in the catalog wasn't even close to correct. Then, seen the same item in person and the color turned out to be correct and I missed out on a purchase.
• I have a one wrong/right where the actual prototype is "whadizit blue?" and the model was delivered a correct "Pevler Blue".
• Someone with the mfg. needs to know and ensure details are right before items ship. This kind of mistake hurts everyone in the hobby even if they didn't buy the offending item.

Lionel might as well sell an undecorated version of every model they produce, but even then they get the undecorated model's paint scheme wrong.  

I don't blame you, Blue Streak.  I;ll have to agree that the Lionel F7 is not just slightly off-color, but it is not even close.  Again, we have to wonder if there is anybody from Lionel, armed with prototype knowledge or accurate information, checking these things before the locomotives are assembled in China.  You ought to be entitled to return that locomotive for a full refund.

Note to those who have never seen Missouri Pacific/Texas & Pacific blue in person:  Don't rely on old slides to faithfully reproduce that color.  Even as good as Kodachrome was, it almost always made the color look bluer than it really was.  In reality, it was a dark blue with a hint of green in it, very hard to describe.  The unit next to the Lionel unit in the first photo is a close reproduction of it.