The Kenosha PCC Streetcar in Kenosha, Wisconsin

Ivan,

Nice report although I think you meant April 29 and 30th.

Interesting that the Toronto cars were not standard railroad gauge when received by Kenosha but 2" wider and according to other sources Kenosha converted them to standard gauge using used Chicago transit car trucks.  Why not just leave them the way they were and build the track accordingly?  The SEPTA car is also not standard gauge but "Pennsylvania Wide Gauge" so it would have had to be converted also.

Bill

A nice idea. A streetcar from nowhere to nowhere. In the middle of nowhere. Yes, I like PCC's, but this line is not long enough nor does it go anywhere. There has been talk in Kenosha of dismantling the line. A line of no value except for over 50' streetcar foamers.

Yes, I went to Kenosha to visit a friend and I was blown away at the vast expenditure to build something with such little forthought as to its sustainability. Millions of dollars to ride around in a circle

Nash automobiles were built in Kenosha....any chance there is a Nash museum, like there is a Kissel (driven by Amelia Earhart), museum in Hartford, west of Milwaukee?

WftTrains posted:

Ivan,

Nice report although I think you meant April 29 and 30th.

Interesting that the Toronto cars were not standard railroad gauge when received by Kenosha but 2" wider and according to other sources Kenosha converted them to standard gauge using used Chicago transit car trucks.  Why not just leave them the way they were and build the track accordingly?  The SEPTA car is also not standard gauge but "Pennsylvania Wide Gauge" so it would have had to be converted also.

Bill

Hi Bill:  Thank you for responding to my post in OGR forum.  Yes--I love PCC streetcars and was up in Kenosha in April 2017.  I had a great time.  I am not an expert on the technical aspects of PCC Streetcars.   I knew they had different track gauges.  I cannot tell you the track gauge of the Cincinnati Street Railway PCC  streetcar and that is why I was in Kenosha -- to see the paint Livery of the Kenosha PCC Cincinnati Car.  Sad that Cincinnati, Ohio sold all of there St. Louis Car Company PCCs ( 25 air-electric and 25 all electric cars) to Toronto.   The 25 Cincinnati Air electric cars ran only for 10 years 1940 to 1950 and were sold to Toronto in 1950 AND the 25 Cincinnati All electric cars ran from 1947 to 1950 and were sold with the air electric cars to Toronto in 1950.  Heck, the paint job on the All Electric Cars was still "wet".  Cincinnati was Hell Bent on getting rid of there  Streetcars and they finally did in 1951--April 29th--death to the Cincinnati Street Railway Streetcars.  The first time I had seen a used Cincinnati PCC streetcar was a trip to Toronto sometime in the late 70's or early 80's.  I had gotten into 16mm photograpy at this time, I took about 2000 feet of silent film of the Toronto PCC Streetcars.  I saw an All Electric PCC streetcar on the Long Branch Streetcar line in Toronto because the Cincinnati All Electric PCCs had the rear window that had a division on them with a smaller window on it...in other words, a 2 piece rear window.  Also, in my filming up in Toronto, I was standing on Queen Street at the PM rush hour and I could not believe what I was seeing.  Car and Car of PCCs including All Electrics and Air Electrics heading East on Queen to Broadview Ave.  The Queen and Kingston Road streetcar continued on Queen to Neville Loop and Kingston Rd turned on Kingston Road a mile or two to I think the Bingham Loop.  The King Streetcar turned on Broadview Street (North) to the Bloor Subway Station (East).  In the near future, I am going to try and transfer my Toronto PCCs film onto a disc (don't hold your breath on this) and I could send you one if you wish.  Send me your address and I shall keep it on file.  BTW--if I make this disc, you may copy it and give it to the world as I have no copy writes on any of my films....one last thing, when I was a young lad in my 20's, three PCC Air Electric Toronto Streetcars were on a siding in the B&O yards in downtown Cincinnati, Ohio.  I discovered that these cars were on the siding, because the load on the flat car had shifted and B&O was going to make the necessary repairs and send them on there way to Tampico, Mexico.  YEP. these 3 cars were Cincinnati Air Electric cars being moved from Toronto to Tampico.  There was a young photographer down in the train yard and we got to talking and I thought these cars were Cincinnati ones.  Yes they were.  An article in one of the Cincinnati Newspapers from this Photographer showed the picture of the streetcar on a flat car, But I told him I did not want my name in the newspaper.  The only way I could look this up would be to go to the library in downtown Cincinnati, Ohio and search out the newspaper for the article.   Will try to do this one of these days.

One last thing about Toronto PCC Streetcars.  When I came to Toronto many many years ago and filmed the 2000 feet of silent 16mm film, I caught the Queen Street PCC Streetcar being coupled together in a train of 2 cars at the Humber Loop.  TTC had enlarged the Humber Loop (Queen Streetcar Turn around) and part of the track was made perfectly straight on the loop for uncoupling and coupling the Queen Car Line during the AM and PM rush hour.  TTC also straightened out the Loop at Nelville on the east end of the Queen Streetcar line for coupling and uncoupling the cars here in the AM and PM rush hour.  The reason why TTC did this is that the Bloor Street PCC Streetcar Line  was so busy in Rush Hour that TTC got the idea to add Tomlinson couplers to the cars and try to hold down the crowds on the Bloor Street Carline.  When the Bloor Street Subway was built, TTC had excess coupler PCC Streetcars -- so --it was a perfect shoe in to change the Queen Streetcar Line over to trains of 2 paired PCC streetcars in rush hour.   Yes, the Queen Street Streetcar Line was always very busy and as the PCC Streetcars were phased out, The New Canadian Light Rail Articulated Streetcar obtained in 1980s  were assigned to the Queen Car Line (even today).   The new but now old Canadian Light Rail Streetcar still run on the Queen Streetcar line but there faith is doomed as the new 5 unit Bombardier Flexity Streetcar will replace them (If Toronto ever gets delivery of such Bombardier Streetcars).  Here is another strange thing about the Queen Streetcar Line, back in the day TTC built a complete White Elephant Streetcar Station below Queen Street that connects with the Yonge St Subway  at Queen and Yonge and the Queen Streetcar Line was going to be put into a Trolley Subway but this never happened (yet).  Bathurst Streetcar Line also ran the new Canadian Light Rail Articulated Streetcars but I think the new Bombardier 5 unit Flexity Cars are enough to cover the service on Bathurst.  Toronto Canada is a first for being the only North American City that still has many streetcar lines.  Another unique thing about Toronto Canada is because they still do not have all the Bombardier Flexity Streetcars on line, they have to run some of the old Canadia Light Rail Articulated Thunder Bay Streetcars and they have Trolley Poles.  So this means that the overhead wire system in Toronto still caters to the single Trolley Pole -- which means the new Bombardier Flexity 5 unit streetcars have a Pantograph that has never been used (yet) and they are being run with a Trolley Pole....so....get your camera kids, your passport and get to Toronto now to watch and photograph a FIRST for a new Articulated Flexity Streetcar --- it uses one trolley pole for electrical pick up.  (I think you can see that on You Tube).   As soon as Toronto gets there full compliment of  Bombardier Flexity Streetcars, the Canadian Articulates and Single Unit cars will be sold off or scrapped AND  the over head will be converted to handle a single Pantograph system.  

Can you think  of other cities that used PCC Streetcars in trains of more than 2 cars?  Try Boston with trains of 3 or more Pullman PCC cars.  Try Cleveland (Van Aiken and Green Road ) that use to have 3 or 4 Pullman PCC streetcars in trains...and get this, when the Cleveland PCC streetcars got into downtown Cleveland they had to run the wrong side of the center station platform because they did not have trolley station platforms on the outside of the track...The stations were center platforms meaning there was no door on the left side of there PCC Streetcars.  So the PCC streetcar ran the opposite way into the Terminal Square until they got rid of the PCC cars for there new (now very old) Breda Light Rail Streetcar.  Oh yes, Los Angles Pacific Electric big Pullman PCCs that ran out to Glendale used trains of 3 and 4 PCC Streetcars.   There are several countries in Europe (Brussels) and the Netherlands (Den Hague) that used artiiculated PCC streetcars (Brussels) and Den Hague that used full size PCCs (western body type) Cars and dummy PCC cars in trains of 4 cars.  Den Hague has saved several of there antique PCC Streetcars and they run a few in regular service along with there new modern streetcars....also they have Streetcar Festivals in Den Hague where the public can come and ride these marvelous coupled together PCC Cars.  I guess there are books on the Belgium PCC Streetcars (some still operating today) and Den Hague.  You can find all of this material and pictures on You Tube.....

Happy streetcar riding......railbear601@zoomtown.com

Tommy posted:

A nice idea. A streetcar from nowhere to nowhere. In the middle of nowhere. Yes, I like PCC's, but this line is not long enough nor does it go anywhere. There has been talk in Kenosha of dismantling the line. A line of no value except for over 50' streetcar foamers.

Hi Tommy:  Yes, I realize that the Kenosha Streetcar is just one big fun loop...but hold onto your hats...they now have a new City Council favorable to the Kenosha Streetcar AND they might build the extension of the Kenosha Streetcar to the old downtown.  Just like the new Cincinnati Bell Connector Streetcar.  The streetcar fans in Cincinnati, Ohio are hoping with cross-fingers that we get our new extension of the Cincinnati Bell Connector built from the downtown area to The University of Cincinnati area and perhaps in years to come---beyond.  Right now, Kansas City Streetcar is purchasing 2 new CAF streetcars for there 4 unit streetcar line that has been operating since May 2016.  I knew this because Kansas City uses the exact streetcar that Cincinnati Bell Connector uses.  A Spanish company CAF built the Cincinnati Streetcar and the Kansas City Streetcar.  Kansas Cities 4 cars were tacked onto the Cincinnati Order.  Why did Kansas City get there 4 cars ahead of Cincinnati, Ohio....BECAUSE -- Cincinnati City Council was very hostile to there streetcar because it was started by a former mayor (Mark Mallory) and the current Mayor tried to stop the Cincinnati, Ohio Bell Connector and he did for 2 months--but it was deemed through studies that it would cost the City of Cincinnati, Ohio millions to stop the current streetcar -- so the hostile city council let the New Cincinnati Bell Connector go to fruition and the City of Cincinnati, Ohio has there big loop streetcar that goes from Over the Rhine to The Banks.  The only real test of this system will be to build the phase-2 line up to the University of Cincinnati, Ohio which might include the Hospital Complexes and the Cincinnati Zoo....home of the world famous gorilla--Harambe--that was killed because a 3 year old child was able to penetrate the gorilla's compound.  SAD.  But now the Zoo has a cute little baby Hippo known as Fiona which was a preemie and weighed in at 30 pounds when born and now weighs 250 pounds ---as cute as a button and is now becoming the poster child for the Cincinnati, Ohio Zoo.  Cincinnati's problems are no different than many cities in the USA. Will we ever bring back The Railway in the streets or private right away?  Many cities in the World have tram, streetcar, subways and railways but the USA seems to lag when it comes to anything that is not an automobile....and don't forget the electric streetcar, tram, railway are Non Polluting Vehicles.   Thank you for writing to me     railbear601@zoomtown.com 

colorado hirailer posted:

Nash automobiles were built in Kenosha....any chance there is a Nash museum, like there is a Kissel (driven by Amelia Earhart), museum in Hartford, west of Milwaukee?

Hi:  Colorado hirailer:  Yes, I knew from reading about the Kenosha Streetcar that American Motors had a plant in this area.  If you like PCC Streetcars why not visit the Kenosha Streetcar if traveling thorough this part o Wisconsin.  BTW:  Denver Colorado is one town that has a light-rail system that seems to be expanding nicely.  I think they have just completed and opened an extension to the Denver International Airport....  sincerely     railbear601@zoomtown.com    

Kenosha has a fine Civil War museum and a few good restaurants, besides the PCC loop. 

https://museums.kenosha.org/civilwar/

Hi John:   And don't forget, your Illinois Railway Museum is one of the nations finest Railroad Museums--well worth visiting.  They have steam locos, diesel locos, streetcars-etc, buses and trolley buses operating.  Besides all of this, IRM has probably the only PCC Streetcar from the Chicago Transit Authority -- And this green-hornet PCC is the one of the largest PCC streetcars built with 3 front doors, 3 rear doors and center doors on it.  Sad to think, Chicago had a very big PCC Streetcar inventory by 1948 and by 1958 every Chicago PCC streetcar was scrapped or the trucks were sent back to St Louis Car Company for rebuilding into the Tin Cans which were CTA El-Subway cars.  I visited Chicago in the late 60s and rode those new Subway-elevated cars--they are hot, fast, very noisy, and I loved them.....sincerely yours railbear601@zoomtown.com    

railbear601 posted:

WftTrains posted:

Ivan,

Nice report although I think you meant April 29 and 30th.

Interesting that the Toronto cars were not standard railroad gauge when received by Kenosha but 2" wider and according to other sources Kenosha converted them to standard gauge using used Chicago transit car trucks.  Why not just leave them the way they were and build the track accordingly?  The SEPTA car is also not standard gauge but "Pennsylvania Wide Gauge" so it would have had to be converted also.

Bill

Hi Bill:  Thank you for responding to my post in OGR forum.  Yes--I love PCC streetcars and was up in Kenosha in April 2017.  I had a great time.  I am not an expert on the technical aspects of PCC Streetcars.   I knew they had different track gauges.  I cannot tell you the track gauge of the Cincinnati Street Railway PCC  streetcar and that is why I was in Kenosha -- to see the paint Livery of the Kenosha PCC Cincinnati Car.  Sad that Cincinnati, Ohio sold all of there St. Louis Car Company PCCs ( 25 air-electric and 25 all electric cars) to Toronto.   The 25 Cincinnati Air electric cars ran only for 10 years 1940 to 1950 and were sold to Toronto in 1950 AND the 25 Cincinnati All electric cars ran from 1947 to 1950 and were sold with the air electric cars to Toronto in 1950.  Heck, the paint job on the All Electric Cars was still "wet".  Cincinnati was Hell Bent on getting rid of there  Streetcars and they finally did in 1951--April 29th--death to the Cincinnati Street Railway Streetcars.  The first time I had seen a used Cincinnati PCC streetcar was a trip to Toronto sometime in the late 70's or early 80's.  I had gotten into 16mm photograpy at this time, I took about 2000 feet of silent film of the Toronto PCC Streetcars.  I saw an All Electric PCC streetcar on the Long Branch Streetcar line in Toronto because the Cincinnati All Electric PCCs had the rear window that had a division on them with a smaller window on it...in other words, a 2 piece rear window.  Also, in my filming up in Toronto, I was standing on Queen Street at the PM rush hour and I could not believe what I was seeing.  Car and Car of PCCs including All Electrics and Air Electrics heading East on Queen to Broadview Ave.  The Queen and Kingston Road streetcar continued on Queen to Neville Loop and Kingston Rd turned on Kingston Road a mile or two to I think the Bingham Loop.  The King Streetcar turned on Broadview Street (North) to the Bloor Subway Station (East).  In the near future, I am going to try and transfer my Toronto PCCs film onto a disc (don't hold your breath on this) and I could send you one if you wish.  Send me your address and I shall keep it on file.  BTW--if I make this disc, you may copy it and give it to the world as I have no copy writes on any of my films....one last thing, when I was a young lad in my 20's, three PCC Air Electric Toronto Streetcars were on a siding in the B&O yards in downtown Cincinnati, Ohio.  I discovered that these cars were on the siding, because the load on the flat car had shifted and B&O was going to make the necessary repairs and send them on there way to Tampico, Mexico.  YEP. these 3 cars were Cincinnati Air Electric cars being moved from Toronto to Tampico.  There was a young photographer down in the train yard and we got to talking and I thought these cars were Cincinnati ones.  Yes they were.  An article in one of the Cincinnati Newspapers from this Photographer showed the picture of the streetcar on a flat car, But I told him I did not want my name in the newspaper.  The only way I could look this up would be to go to the library in downtown Cincinnati, Ohio and search out the newspaper for the article.   Will try to do this one of these days.  

sincerely yours,   railbear601@zoomtown.com      

 

 

 

Hi Ivan: 

You’re welcome.  Re the track gauge of the Cincinnati Street Railway Company system, like Toronto they were not standard railroad gauge either and for some reason they used the Pennsylvania Wide Gauge of 5’2½”.  FYI attached is a scan of a page from a 1941 Westinghouse book with a black-and-white photo of a Cincinnati PCC along with a listing of its detailed specs including the track gauge.  I’m not very familiar with Cincinnati but I have seen photos of Cincinnati PCC’s climbing hills so perhaps the wider gauge is to provide a wider wheelbase for stability on curves on those hilly routes?  The double trolley pole was also unique.

So when those cars were sold to Toronto their trucks would have had to be converted to Toronto’s gauge of 4’10 7/8” and then when sold to Kenosha the trucks were replaced with those used Chicago standard railroad gauge trucks.

Toronto had quite a fleet of PCC’s as did my hometown of Pittsburgh.  It was common to see PCC’s lined up on the downtown Pittsburgh streets around the 5pm rush hour quitting time. 

You may already be familiar with the following reference which has color photos of streetcars and trains from all over but just in case attached is a link to the Cincinnati PCC page:  http://www.newdavesrailpix.com.../cvg_sub_old_pcc.htm

Also there is a PCC Yahoo group although it hasn’t been very active lately.   Here’s the link: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/PCC_Cars/info

And my email is in my profile.

Regards, Bill