To Scale, or Semi-scale….

We always had a little less than a 4'x8' layout with a lionel 681 turbine that my parents set up for the holidays with 027 track many years ago. I will never forget how much better it looked the first time I saw the 681 run on 054 and 072 curves on my current 16'x20' layout. I love the look of scale equipment but I stick with semi scale on my layout. Just a thought.

Semi-scale locos have been around for decades, so I doubt very much you'll see a shortage of trains to buy and run. Even if the manufacturers stop producing the smaller trains, I suspect there will be plenty of them on the secondary market. However, if you go with the wider curves, that will help you keep your options open if you want to run larger trains.

Seems you've already decided.

Start with a 7x12. Develop it and then add that 4 extra feet if you find yourself ready for it. You'll have a few months into a 7x12 space when it comes to scenery and running trains. Then you might see that big engine you can't live without and BAM, time for the expansion.

I think a lot of scale things are happening but the Lionchief stuff from Lionel and the offerings by Menards should give a lot of semi scale options. In my unsolicited opinion, I think Menards will put pressure on other manufacturers to expand their semi-scale offerings. I think you're going to win no matter which way you go.

It is really hard to get much O scale track is a small space even if the locos look better on scale track.  There are reasons some go for O31 or even O27 with small spaces.  Live is full of compromises.

Charlie

Go with the 7 x 16 and O-72 curves.  I've done the whole back and forth on scale and semi-scale.  It always came back to scale for me and from now on, I'll always put the largest curves I can in the space that I have available.

I got back into O-scale around 20 years ago, and I had pretty much all postwar and semi-scale.  I gradually moved to scale, and now I have mostly scale.  When I built the current layout, I made the minimum curve O72 except for one industry siding, and I'm not looking back.  I still have novelty pieces and small stuff, but I would not want to limit myself to not running some of the magnificent pieces that are only O72 and above.

You can still run most scale engines on 054 or 063 if you went with your original plan. You just have to settle for small steam and 4 axle diesels in my opinion in order for it to look good. 072 will allow just about anything made. Big engines to me. Also mean long consists in order to look right.  On a layout without a lot of length. The entire consist will tend to dominate the space. Running semi scale will let you run larger engines on a tighter radius such as a Lionmaster Big Boy.  But scale sized boxcars tend to make the engine look less massive.  If you like passenger trains I can see going Semi Scale as the cars tend to match the engines size wise.

My own layout. I run only scale with somewhat of a 072 minimum. My largest engine I now run is a Mikado with a mix of 10 Wheelers.  I like the look of the smaller scale equipment and moderate consists.

[quote]I just feel like the whole hobby is moving toward scale, and I will be left behind if I plan a semi scale layout. What are your thoughts?[/quote]

Well... you may want to think that through some more and as you do ask yourself: "Why would I feel left behind?"

As I read your comment, I thought: "Are you trying to keep up with others? If so, why?"

When I contemplate a new model railroad layout/theme/etc, the first thing I do is distill what I really want to do and what's the best decision for ME. I do not consider what others are doing in view of emulating it, or whether I'll be "left behind", etc. Even at a smaller scope, model railroading is expensive. I want my plan thought out (layout track plan, engine roster needs, rolling stock desires, and so forth) and in place before I start to spend $$, and once committed to my plan, I typically I adhere to it with minor deviation. Trust me, not thinking it out well enough and already having sizable money spent only to discover one's direction isn't really what you wanted to do, sucks.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Andre

I would vote for larger curves only because even semi scale trains look better on big curves. I like to build scale models but get as much pleasure running less than scale trains as scale ones. KLine streamliners and articulateds are all less than scale as is Lionel Lionmaster.

Pete

Can you make the track plan fit around the wall with backdrops on the walls?

Andrew

@rattler21 posted:

Permit me to add my two cents.  There is no such thing as semi-scale.  It is either O Scale or not.  Like being pregnants.  She either is or isn't, no such thing as semi-pregnant.  Perhaps non-scale would be a more factual term.  Semi-  came about when K-Line made some close to S-Scale engines that ran on three rail O gauge track.  Like many words in our hobby, it morphed.  'Madison Car' is used by some to describe heavyweight passenger car.     John

I see it totally different. To me, there's three "basic" categories:

* Toy trains

* Semi Scale

* Scale

Toy Trains:

I group my Marx stuff, Lionel's "Scout"-type, some of Lionel's "O-27", extremely foreshortened stuff, etc, into this category. To me, a "toy train" is a model train that can't be mistaken for any thing else.

Here's a classic example, my Marx 999:

Regardless of the scenic setting, that little engine will never look "realistic".

Semi Scale:

To me, "semi scale" trains comes from what is commonly called "traditional" sized trains. Some "traditional" trains lean more toward the "toy train" look, while others lean more toward the "semi scale" side of the coin. To my eyes, nice looking "semi-scale" train equipment can offer a very pleasing "look" in the right scenic setting that lends itself well to looking "scale" without the additional constraints "scale" brings to the table. Here's a mock-up I did a while back to test this concept. I think it passed with flying colors:

IF the above scene were completed with painted rail, appropriate ballast (i.e. cinders), good looking ground texturing, weeds, some rubble, and such, those scene would look great and the models would look very acceptable to many of us. However, none of the models are truly "scale".

Scale:

I define "scale" as a sincere effort by the mfg'er to keep the proportions close to the dimensions of the prototypes. Even at that, for 3 rail use, typically there are compromises that betray the model. (Large flanges, talgo-trucks, handrails shortened by necessity of talgo-trucks, and so forth.)

However, when done well, a "Scale" 3 rail layout and "scale" equipment can be very convincing. There are several modelers here at these forums that offer ample examples of "scale" 3 rail.

SO, that's my take. It's definitely from the "FWIW" category!

Andre

@falconservice posted:

Can you make the track plan fit around the wall with backdrops on the walls?

Andrew

Unfortunately I can’t. It’s going to have to be an island style layout. Too many storage cabinets and workbenches on the walls. Im just happy to finally be able to build a layout. I’ve wanted one for over 20 years.

Scale or semi-scale (traditional, toy, whatever you want to call it) is a moot point I believe.  My take is to make the layout as capable and as large as possible in the space available.  It's rare you'll regret making the layout more capable of running a wider assortment of equipment, but these pages are full of stories of people wishing they had wider curves and more space on their layout.

@laming posted:

[quote]I just feel like the whole hobby is moving toward scale, and I will be left behind if I plan a semi scale layout. What are your thoughts?[/quote]

Well... you may want to think that through some more and as you do ask yourself: "Why would I feel left behind?"

As I read your comment, I thought: "Are you trying to keep up with others? If so, why?"

When I contemplate a new model railroad layout/theme/etc, the first thing I do is distill what I really want to do and what's the best decision for ME. I do not consider what others are doing in view of emulating it, or whether I'll be "left behind", etc. Even at a smaller scope, model railroading is expensive. I want my plan thought out (layout track plan, engine roster needs, rolling stock desires, and so forth) and in place before I start to spend $$, and once committed to my plan, I typically I adhere to it with minor deviation. Trust me, not thinking it out well enough and already having sizable money spent only to discover one's direction isn't really what you wanted to do, sucks.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Andre

It’s not that I’m trying to keep up with the Jones’s. It’s more the fact that all of the innovation and best models seem to be in scale. The Railking line was really the only full featured semi scale product line that was truly extensive. Now, who knows what the future of Railking is? It doesn’t look good at the moment. If MTH were to continue the Railking line, I believe I could be satisfied with that. However, unless Lionel steps in and greatly expands their semi scale offerings in the lionchief plus line, i don’t see a bright future for semi scale layouts. I’m not one who likes to buy used locomotives and rolling stock, so I guess I’m kind of being pushed into the scale side of the hobby if I want the newest features and best models.

I guess we will find out next week if Lionel plans to make any waves in the semi scale market. I think they could really make some great semi scale  models if they wanted to, but unfortunately Lionel doesn’t call me and get my input….lol.

I like Andre’s take.  My (4x 49) layout is semi scale. Curves 042 and 031. I can fit much more railroad in the space I have. I try for realistic scenery. Visitors don’t know the difference anyway.  Also, trains are more affordable, with lots of products available.  Do what makes YOU happy. JohnA

I look at it from a different perspective.    Since I started to build scale kits for My lionel layout in my first rented house, I have found it more and more interesting to build or acquire scale models of specific prototypes.   I have found it fun to read about a real locomotive,then acquire a model of it, and compare the scale look and dimensions with the drawings of the real loco.   Over the years I have become more and more focused on one RR and on improving my models of it.   For me, that is fun an interesting.

The various paths of the hobby have continuously moved more and more toward better scale models.    The first lionel thing was a powered gondola, I think tha Joshua lionel cohen envisioned envisioned as an advertising gimic for retailers.    It was not a bit like a prototype.    Then came the various tinplate mfgs that made what today look caricatures of real trains.    As more people built better models, mfg saw a business and used new and different materials to make "models" that looked more and more like real trains. 

After all, is it really a model of anything if doesn't have the right proportions and has too many wheels, or not enough wheels or even a non-protypical paint job?    Or is it just something that we like to collect?

I'm on in O scale for the scale aspect of it coming from HO and N and being in this hobby continuously for 46 years now without a break.  I got started in O with a Marx 3/16 freight set around 1999 then added two inexpensive Lionel postwar locomotives to pull the cars.  I wasn't that satisfied until I found a Williams FP45.  Not scale, but closer and just a big locomotive.  Then came the scale GG1 and that was pretty much it.   From there I dabbled in 3 rail scale and now I live in two worlds with a portion of my collection being 2 rail and a portion being 3 rail.  I enjoy the historical aspect of the hobby and real trains just as much if not more than my models.  My book collection is as important as my model collection.  As my interests have grown and changed, I have thinned the collection in some places while blowing it way out of proportion in others.

However, that is just me.  I can stare a static train and enjoy it for the details and the history it represents as much as I enjoy running it.

I guess if anything my journey has taught me this, it really doesn't matter how you start out as long as you enjoy it.  This is not hobby that has any real rules so leaving room for future growth or changes in interest is probably more important than what you start with today.  There are no wrong answers.

Jonathon, Well said.    I feel the same way.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I'm on in O scale for the scale aspect of it coming from HO and N and being in this hobby continuously for 46 years now without a break.  I got started in O with a Marx 3/16 freight set around 1999 then added two inexpensive Lionel postwar locomotives to pull the cars.  I wasn't that satisfied until I found a Williams FP45.  Not scale, but closer and just a big locomotive.  Then came the scale GG1 and that was pretty much it.   From there I dabbled in 3 rail scale and now I live in two worlds with a portion of my collection being 2 rail and a portion being 3 rail.  I enjoy the historical aspect of the hobby and real trains just as much if not more than my models.  My book collection is as important as my model collection.  As my interests have grown and changed, I have thinned the collection in some places while blowing it way out of proportion in others.

However, that is just me. I can stare a static train and enjoy it for the details and the history it represents as much as I enjoy running it.

I guess if anything my journey has taught me this, it really doesn't matter how you start out as long as you enjoy it.  This is not hobby that has any real rules so leaving room for future growth or changes in interest is probably more important than what you start with today.  There are no wrong answers.

Jonathan, the portion I highlighted of your text fits me to a T.

I've done a lot of soul searching the past year when it comes to model railroading and determined that the scale side of things is best for me.  However, I do not have the space for 2-Rail O nor the funding, so I've gone to the dark side 🤣 (HO) for running trains outside of my Halloween and Christmas trains.  I was one of the original folks who reserved the Sunset Amtrak 3R offerings in 2020 but pulled back.  I still plan on doing O Scale, but in a diorama form, and I'm planning to do a small 2' x 4' one for display in the living room in which the trains will be static. The imagination and mind will encompass the world that exists beyond the rail heads on both ends of the layout.

FYI - The Sunset Amtrak that I will purchase (it will be 2R) won't be on that layout but will be its own display, as part of a platform that has Amfleets in O, HO, and N in a stepped display.  All 3 units will of course be numbered 25124

You can never go wrong putting the largest curves that will fit or that you can afford on the layout, mine are 136. Always remember, minds change. I never wanted steam engines, now I have two.

@NCogaugefan posted:

It’s not that I’m trying to keep up with the Jones’s. It’s more the fact that all of the innovation and best models seem to be in scale. The Railking line was really the only full featured semi scale product line that was truly extensive. Now, who knows what the future of Railking is? It doesn’t look good at the moment. If MTH were to continue the Railking line, I believe I could be satisfied with that. However, unless Lionel steps in and greatly expands their semi scale offerings in the lionchief plus line, i don’t see a bright future for semi scale layouts. I’m not one who likes to buy used locomotives and rolling stock, so I guess I’m kind of being pushed into the scale side of the hobby if I want the newest features and best models.

Ah. Now I better understand your statement and sentiments. Thanks for the reply.

Yup... you have some decisions to make!

Andre

kI read an essay many years ago in the NMRA MAGAZINE that discussed scale vs cost vs space.    The premise that the author presented was that you will fill the availalble space with whatever scale you shoose and the costs will be similar.    As an example of his thinking, Assume you have space and money for 10 locos in O scale.   Then assume HO locos are about half the cost.    You will most likely collect 20 HO locos because you can afford to, and you have the space for that many more in the smaller scale.

He summarized his idea that you will spend about the same amount of money and use aboutr the same space regardless of scale.

I think the same idea applies to semi-scale vs scale.

I prefer semi-scale.  It allows for more operating possibilities and fun.  You won't be able to run certain equipment on it, but I find that to be okay.

I love the look of scale, but it just takes up too much real estate.  Basically 7 feet to just make a half circle.  If you have a space that is 7 by 16, the 2 ends will be taken up by the ability to have the train come back around, then what?

12 x 24 Frank, and my folded dogbone mainline is 140 feet of track.  All curves are O72 or larger.  I even managed to stick a small turntable in.  There are also three independent loops and a hidden three-track yard at the back.

I actually have small and large stuff, I just didn't want to limit myself to not being able to run scale steam.

Thanks for all the input guys. I think I have settled on 6x14 benchwork. That will allow me to make the actual layout around 7x15. At that size I can still get around all sides. The long axis of the layout is spanning the garage door to the back wall of the garage. So that leaves me a pathway from one side of the garage to the other between the end of the layout and the back wall. I haven’t decided if I’m going to do o60 or o72 curves. Either way, I’ll be able to run a great deal of scale locomotives. And, if MTH does bring back Railking steam, it certainly won’t look bad on bigger curves. My layout is not going to be a giant, but it’s certainly better than the 4x8 I had years ago.

@NCogaugefan posted:

And, if MTH does bring back Railking steam, it certainly won’t look bad on bigger curves.

100% correct. I have to tell you, I go by the adage "just because you can doesn't mean you should."  My first basement layout had 27", 34" and 42" curves, and I loved how my O27 engines looked on 42" curves. Natural fits. Fast forward to today, basement layout 2.0 has an outer mainline with 54" and 72" curves while the inner is 42" and 54".  My biggest engines are my Lionmaster Hudson and my Rail King Mountain, both rated for 31" but I think they'd look odd on 31" curves. Similar assessment for my new 60' passenger cars. I can't imagine them on anything less than 54" curves....sure, they'll navigate, but I think the overhang would be excessive.

The good thing with scale is that there are small scale engines.