Trackbed under track on foamboard layout?

When I made the mistake of using noisy 1" rigid foam for an 8x10 temporary layout for weight savings, I used small nails every so often just to keep the track from "traveling". The nails held the track in place even when I turned the layout on its side to carry it out to the garage during the holidays. I was using RealTrax at the time and that only added to the noise. The next year I turned it into a Christmas layout and was able to dampen the noise a bit by adding batting under the track, so roadbed should help. Even with the batting though, it was still too noisy to stand next to it and carry on a conversation, After I added the batting, I didn't put the screws back in and the track stayed in place, so maybe they weren't needed for that.

You might think about Vinyl Roadbed. I use it under my Atlas Track! It is very “Bendable “ and provides a good sound deadner as well! I used white glue to fasten it to the foam board, then used small Atlas screws to fasten the Atlas Track to the Roadbed !

I screwed my track down on cork over the extruded construction foam on plywood base, I removed screws after ballasting, filled the screw holes and darkened the patched wooden ties with a Sharpie. For the Service Yard tracks, and some spurs, I recessed the tracks into the ground by using 5/16" foamboard over the 1/2' foam base to achieve the sunken appearance of dirty Yard tracks. You can see the elevated(on cork) ballasted mainline in the background under the "Tennessean" and the freight consist on the tapered-down track entering via the inner mainline's 072/084 curved switch. Mechanically moved Switchstand lights will be mounted on the extended ties, many  will have to be extended to avoid being hit by engine pilots in the tight Yard. Track switches are operated by Tortoise motors underneath, controlled by toggles at a homemade panel.

The 13" h. kneewall space above the layout surface is removable for decoration (velcrowed to the drywall). I had planned to have C Sam paint backgrounds but health issues stopped all production.

Lots of great suggestions and insights, thanks. 

Hello, I am saving to buy my own home,so in the meantime,I bought 3  6ftx3ft foldable tables from Costco.I then put down 3/4 inch plywood,then on top of that I put a layer of 4"inch construction insulation (basically foam) and I topped it off with the Mylar or"pegboard" without the holes drilled in. I cut about 6 support legs from nice 2x4's,to brace it up so I could walk on it,to reach some of my shelving.

I then just fastened my ALL ROSS track with the proper size blackned track screws,

 The results are STUNNINGLY QUIET.

Even with the HUGE Premier MTH BEASTS running on it,you can turn the sounds off,and all you hear is the polite "Clickety Clack" of the engines&cars passng over the Joints in the sectional ROSS.I left the "NIBS" on the connectors this time,as in the next year or so,I will no doubt be tking the track apart to fit my hopefully "Final" layout,which is going to be MUCH bigger than the 11ftx 14 ft layout I am running on now. 

But to answer your question,I found out by using this combination of materials and track,I did not need the mountain of cork roadbed I purchased through the years.I am gonna hang on to the cork roadbed,just in case I go with different materials on my final "MASTER" or "DREAM" layout in a year or so.But I think this is the case with most layouts.depending on your choice of track&building materials,you may/may not have to buy the roadbed.  Inmy case here,the 4" insulation is providing a very nice cushioning for the trains. 

I can run trains in the master bedroom in this Apt,close the door and my wife cannot hear them while she does her thing on the same floor,10 ft away from the layout room.And I'm running ALL premier Stuff,and even the massive weight of FEF's,Big Boy's, and other Heavy,big engines has been conquered by the combination of materials

There is no need to use roadbed under track on foam.  The noise reduction is minimal and isn't worth the cost or hassle of laying roadbed.   Just buy n-scale cork to lay outside of the ties which will form a nice slope for when you ballast (credit Dennis Brennan's book).   You need nothing more than glued ballast to hold the track to the foam - nails or other ways to affix the track are not needed.   As Dewey mentioned, you may want to use nails until ballasting is complete and then remove.  The larger or more intricate the track plan would precipitate the use of nails to hold the track in place until ballasting is completed.

One suggestion - use 2 inch foam instead of 1 inch foam.   Pink or green doesn't matter.  A bit quieter, sturdier, and lends itself to more scenic opportunities.

Lastly, I highly recommend Dennis's book :

https://brennansmodelrr.com/pr...listic-modeling-book

It explains steps clearly and in layman's terms with good pictures.   Plus Dennis is great to work with and stands by his products.   (One example: just how much ballast do you need?  Just tell Dennis the length of track and what he recommends will pretty much be spot on).  

Keep us posted with pics and good luck with your build!

-Greg

I just re-read your post - my apologies, but if you are using 027 track you will most likely need to hold down the track to the foam as it doesn't have ties (well only about 3 per section).  Still do not need roadbed.  What I recommend is what I've seen others do - drill a hole through the foam and use a black zip-tie to hold down the track.  I'm pretty sure there are holes in the metal track ties to run a zip-tie through.   When ballasted you won't see the zip-tie.

-Greg

That's another step I need to investigate, ballasting.  Thanks for the referral to Dennis's book which should provide the information I need.  In my "newbie" state of mind, I was (am) concerned after reading some blurb on the internet that ballasting debris sometimes may get caught in the running gear of a locomotive and "gum up the works".   The "jewel" of my small collection is a Lionel 2046 that has been completely overhauled so I certainly do not want any issues with ballast finding its way into the moving parts of this find locomotive. 

I assume the glue (and Dennis methods) will (should) prevent this from happening?

Dewey Trogdon posted:

I screwed my track down on cork over the extruded construction foam on plywood base, I removed screws after ballasting, filled the screw holes and darkened the patched wooden ties with a Sharpie. For the Service Yard tracks, and some spurs, I recessed the tracks into the ground by using 5/16" foamboard over the 1/2' foam base to achieve the sunken appearance of dirty Yard tracks. You can see the elevated(on cork) ballasted mainline in the background under the "Tennessean" and the freight consist on the tapered-down track entering via the inner mainline's 072/084 curved switch. Mechanically moved Switchstand lights will be mounted on the extended ties, many  will have to be extended to avoid being hit by engine pilots in the tight Yard. Track switches are operated by Tortoise motors underneath, controlled by toggles at a homemade panel.

 

The 13" h. kneewall space above the layout surface is removable for decoration (velcrowed to the drywall). I had planned to have C Sam paint backgrounds but health issues stopped all production.

 

What a great idea, to use velcro to hold up the background panels.

Steve

Dewey Trogdon posted:

I screwed my track down on cork over the extruded construction foam on plywood base, I removed screws after ballasting, filled the screw holes and darkened the patched wooden ties with a Sharpie. For the Service Yard tracks, and some spurs, I recessed the tracks into the ground by using 5/16" foamboard over the 1/2' foam base to achieve the sunken appearance of dirty Yard tracks. You can see the elevated(on cork) ballasted mainline in the background under the "Tennessean" and the freight consist on the tapered-down track entering via the inner mainline's 072/084 curved switch. Mechanically moved Switchstand lights will be mounted on the extended ties, many  will have to be extended to avoid being hit by engine pilots in the tight Yard. Track switches are operated by Tortoise motors underneath, controlled by toggles at a homemade panel.

 

The 13" h. kneewall space above the layout surface is removable for decoration (velcrowed to the drywall). I had planned to have C Sam paint backgrounds but health issues stopped all production.

 

Dewey,

how wide is your bench in that picture, and how far from the wall is the first set of tracks?

I also think the velcro idea is a great one.

Cam

Cam

40" wide overall reaching from 3/4" facia board to velcroed wall panel. Although I have shrunk considerably at 87 years it is (well was!) not a problem for me to reach equipment on the outer track. But I usually stood on a small 10 " high toolbox to reach the wall. Outer mainline track is 6" from center rail to the wall. The two mainlines are 5" apart center rail to center rail. The end curves at the drop bridge entrance (behind the camera} are 072/084 and the other end of the mainline ovals curves are 084/096. It was intended to represent a Service Yard only and is entered/exited via curved track switches on the inner main with crossover capacity between the mains. 

Attic room 9x19, layout 9x16. 

Dewey,

Thanks for the info. I have a very similar space (11X36) in my attic. I'm getting ready to start building the bench work, and I'm trying to get an idea what I can fit.

Cam 

FWIW, this is the other side of the coin on foam noise.  I’m with Doubledaz.  Pretty sure I wouldn’t use foam again due to noise level with the process I used.  Can provide construction details if needed.

I never paid much attention to my train noise and consider it an acceptable result of railroading ( the exception was running my mountain cottage 5 track, twin shelf operation that the Domestic CEO frowned on right severely while Oprah was on TV in the adjacent Den--I abated via shutdown). 

I recall an Engineer from the Ordnance Depot at Kingsport, Tennessee back in the day who used acoustic tile on the ceiling and walls of his room and realized a far more significant noise abatement than all the layout deck treatment with foam,screw removal, etc. I simply use foam as a base because it enables one to dig ditches, creekbeds, ponds, place structures down to earth realistically, easily plant trees and more. I use cork to elevate my mainlines for contrast to my lower dirt encased spurs and sidings--just one of my druthers. Also I use wooden tie Gargraves Flex Track entirely and after marking track centerlines with Sharpies I lay the split cork to the lines and then bend flex track center rail to cork centerline and install retaining screws.

The photo below shows my little attic rooms early benchwork after removing poly skin from the construction foam, painting an earth tone and marking track/installing mainline cork or just marking Yard track,etc. The white rectangle in the foreground is where I "evacuated" the foam to accommodate my Engine House.

The entrance drop gate is in place, I prewired all possible underneath prior to cover up and I am ready to lay track and put on my "Sparktricians" hat again, power the rails and run round and round.

.

Folks, a lot of your noise issues are due to the type of track you use.  Tubular track and FastTrack are much noiser than Atlas, Ross, Gargraves due to their design (hollow rails/plastic roadbed hollow) and will be loud by nature.  If the level of noise they create is not for you there are essentially two choices - switch track or hobbies

-Greg

windhund42 posted:

That's another step I need to investigate, ballasting.  Thanks for the referral to Dennis's book which should provide the information I need.  In my "newbie" state of mind, I was (am) concerned after reading some blurb on the internet that ballasting debris sometimes may get caught in the running gear of a locomotive and "gum up the works".   The "jewel" of my small collection is a Lionel 2046 that has been completely overhauled so I certainly do not want any issues with ballast finding its way into the moving parts of this find locomotive. 

I assume the glue (and Dennis methods) will (should) prevent this from happening?

If you are glueing your ballast  (which you should) you will not have issues.  I definitely relate to your concerns with your prized 2046 engine - some of mine came with hefty price tags. 

-Greg

windhund42 posted:

That's another step I need to investigate, ballasting.  Thanks for the referral to Dennis's book which should provide the information I need.  In my "newbie" state of mind, I was (am) concerned after reading some blurb on the internet that ballasting debris sometimes may get caught in the running gear of a locomotive and "gum up the works".   The "jewel" of my small collection is a Lionel 2046 that has been completely overhauled so I certainly do not want any issues with ballast finding its way into the moving parts of this find locomotive. 

I assume the glue (and Dennis methods) will (should) prevent this from happening?

I went with rubber ballast for the noise reduction and the investment protection. If a bit of rubber hits the gears it's no big deal.

That said, ballast grit fouling running gear doesn't seem to be much of an issue, or there would be more forum threads on it.

DoubleDAZ posted:

When I made the mistake of using noisy 1" rigid foam for an 8x10 temporary layout for weight savings, I used small nails every so often just to keep the track from "traveling". The nails held the track in place even when I turned the layout on its side to carry it out to the garage during the holidays. I was using RealTrax at the time and that only added to the noise. The next year I turned it into a Christmas layout and was able to dampen the noise a bit by adding batting under the track, so roadbed should help. Even with the batting though, it was still too noisy to stand next to it and carry on a conversation, After I added the batting, I didn't put the screws back in and the track stayed in place, so maybe they weren't needed for that.

Batting sounds like a great idea. I used 1/8" soft packing foam as switching yard roadbed and it worked great. Maybe next I'll expand on that* with 1/4" quilter's batting. That'd work well under O27 track, too. The under-the-track parts could be painted dark brown; the rest of the "ground" could be painted brown, with greens for grass painted on top of the dirt browns once it's dried.

* pun intended

Bob, folks also use carpet padding.

Thanks to all forum members for the tremendous response to my post.  This is has been an invaluable resource for me and I've learned a lot in recent months about our great hobby.

Keep us posted on your progress as I'm sure the choices you make and lessons you learn will be of help to someone else.  Plus, I like looking at all layouts!

-Greg

Have you looked into sound board. I use it as the base, priced right, lite weight. I intermix it and the pink foam for our layouts. Nick

Dewey,

what are the terminal strips, in your last picture, used for?

 RADCAM

The wire "bundle" running through the joists  contains a 18 VAC 12 gauge railpower bus, which energizes the T-strips where I then connect a short drop wire down from where it is soldered to the rails above for both hot and common. I solder power to every 37 " section of Gargraves flex track plus between all Ross switches. The T-strips are just a handy way for a secure connection of the drop wire. Other methods work--some folks use wire nuts or pressure clips. some solder the drop directly to the bus. I prefer T-strips.

I addition there are T-strips for Switchstand lights, strips for potential building lighting/accessories and for the individual Tortoise track switch motors. Each individual track switch will have wires running from its individual toggle control switches way back at the track schematic that operate the switch points. I have a fairly good idea of where track switches and accessories will be located when I prewire before covering the joists with plywood. ( I emphasize track switch to distingush from electrical switches).

The wiring/T-strips  (pictured below) gets "busy" under my Service Yard which has quite few track switches, Tortoise motors (about 9 shown in this photo) and accessories as well as many soldered railpower track connections. 

 Track switches operate from this simplistic schematic of shelf liner and auto striping. The position of the toggle handle indicates at a glance whether the track switch is set to "thru" or "out". The layout power center is mounted on wall below.

I used 1" foam on top of a plywood base.  I also use cork roadbed.  My decision was not for sound but rather for looks and easy construction.

I like the look of the track raised above the foam layer.  I used finishing nails to secure the track.  I drill a hole in the tie and I can push the nails in through the cork and foam without penetrating the wood layer.  This secures any movement, but can be easily adjusted if required during the construction phase.

I have a removable section made entirely out of 2" foam in case I ever need to remove my furnace.  That foam "bridge" is like a speaker.  Trains run fairly quiet on the layout until they hit that foam section.

Having a foam base is also advantageous to carve out for terrain like I did for this creek.  It's also handy to carve out to run and hide wire.

Have Fun!

Ron

Greg Houser posted:

There is no need to use roadbed under track on foam.  The noise reduction is minimal and isn't worth the cost or hassle of laying roadbed.   Just buy n-scale cork to lay outside of the ties which will form a nice slope for when you ballast (credit Dennis Brennan's book).   You need nothing more than glued ballast to hold the track to the foam - nails or other ways to affix the track are not needed.   As Dewey mentioned, you may want to use nails until ballasting is complete and then remove.  The larger or more intricate the track plan would precipitate the use of nails to hold the track in place until ballasting is completed.

One suggestion - use 2 inch foam instead of 1 inch foam.   Pink or green doesn't matter.  A bit quieter, sturdier, and lends itself to more scenic opportunities.

Lastly, I highly recommend Dennis's book :

https://brennansmodelrr.com/pr...listic-modeling-book

It explains steps clearly and in layman's terms with good pictures.   Plus Dennis is great to work with and stands by his products.   (One example: just how much ballast do you need?  Just tell Dennis the length of track and what he recommends will pretty much be spot on).  

Keep us posted with pics and good luck with your build!

-Greg

 

Great book from a great guy! 

I will keep everyone posted as I make progress with the board.  I have read a bit about "Sound board" use instated of foam board but I gravitated to using sound board because it seemed that more people had used it.  I certainly could be persuaded to used sound board if it's better than foam board.

I have a Lowe's locally and found this sound board available.  Should I buy this instead of foam board?

I've been using a fiberboard Insulation (soundboard) you can get from Home Depot. It comes in 4x8 sheets, and I'm using Fastrack. About the only noise I hear is the clickity-clack of the wheels at slow speeds. Yes, it does get a bit noisier the faster the trains run. I also like the fact of using the foam boards to be able to do scenery work. Common sense tells me the softer the foamboard the less noise is transmitted throughout the benchwork. I would venture to say, the higher the "R" value, the denser/harder the board is, which will transmit more noise.  I would think that the white Mylar covered insulation panels would transmit less noise, if the Mylar was removed at least on the operating side. Just my $.02 for what its worth.

This is what I'm using.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/So...ard-717008/202090237

Or this if you want foam:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/R-..._-NA-_-202532854-_-N

Is it just as easy to carve rivers and streams in sound board and it is in foam board?  I plan to have a small shallow stream on my layout and I understand that's one of the great advantages of using foam board, it carves easily.

The fiberboard is 1/2". You could potently carve out a shallow stream or river. It's just a compressed fiber board.

If you want to add a stream or low area I would recommend building your framework with a lower area. I will attach a pic of my benchmark frame for a stream. I would not recommend carving into the fiberboard,  very messy and you will weaken that spot. As stated it is only 1/2 inch thick.  Nick.

You haven’t said anything about what will support the foam. I supported mine with a 1’ grid of scrap 1x3s. I don’t know how sturdy soundboard is, but use caution because I suspect some respondents put foam or soundboard on top of a plywood base on standard (16” on center) framing. 

My new layout is also on 6'x30" folding tables from Target.$30.00 each. I too was very worried about noise transferring thru a plastic topped table. So I went with a sandwich approach.  Bottom is 1" Thermasheath r-6 insulation from Home Depot. 2nd layer is 3/4" particle board for strength and topped off with another layer of the 1" insulation. The result is just what I wanted, strong and very quiet.  Azgary

It will have a 2x4 frame with a plywood bottom and the foam or sound board will be inserted into it (not on top) and held to the bottom with Locktite Power Grab adhesive.  I plan to use a few cross braces across the underside for added strength not that I think it will really need these.