Trying to build my layout going around my basement

I am probably the last person to chime in on this but I am in a similar situation, except I am going to be using the new legacy system to control my trains. My layout which is in another post is going to be using older used lionel 0-27 track and switches with a few newer switches to accommodate the larger engines that I have, in all about 250' of track. I have an older lionel ZW and an LW that I am planning on using for power and 2 older lionel 1033's for the accessories.

  Those are my plans I hope someone else can add to this because I could certainly  use the help on hooking up the power as I have been out of O gauge for a very very long time.

I am building my new layout around my basement, 3 tracks 3 pr of switches, and about a 1,000 ft of wire under everything with k line and gargrave track and wire drops every so many feet. Lots of holes to,drill and lots of wire to pull, but I built it hight enough so that I can sit in a roller chair and do most of the work. It also works if you have a grandson who you can teach how to drii holes and pull,wire,,then use suitcase connectors for the drops. I am just about done wiring switches.

This has been discussed previously on the forum.  Do a search of all the forums, especially the electrical forum.

The issue is not your transformers but the size of the wire in your power distribution system.  You will see your engine slow down the farther away they get from transformer.  This is due to the resistance in the wire,  The smaller the wire; the greater the resistance per foot; the greater the power loss; and the slow your train will go.

For around the basement layout I would use a continuous loop of 10-12 gauge copper wire for each mainline loop.  You'll need to include a similar sized wire for the ground.  I would fasten the wire the underside of the table and drop feeder wires of 15-18 gauge wire to the track. 

You cannot depend on the steel track to deliver the power over long distances.  Power is lost at each rail joint.  Even the tight ones.  Some people will solder each rail joint.

Remember to phase your transformer outputs to prevent shorts between the grounds if you use older transformers that don't have polarized plugs (one prong wider than the other).  If you get a short flip one plug over or switch the wires on one set of terminals.

You can find more detail on the electrical forum.

Jan

I've morph over the years from the tradition side of the hobby to the scale side, but one thing that is constant is that I still use my MRC Dual 270 to power the layout.

OP, I don't know if you are putting in a single track, double mainline or something else, but I set up my layout with separate power to each mainline.  Thus, with a double mainline, I run one line off each side of the transformer.  I also have 12 sidings that I power (using blocks) from this single transformer.

I agree with Jan that power distribution is critical and this is something that folks sometimes overlook.  I run power drops about every 6 feet on my layout, but I use gargraves track and each section is 36" +/- and thus haven't felt the need to solder the joints.

I have bought a lot of track over the last 15/16 years as my interest has gone from postwar to modern traditional to semi-scale to scale and my track from O-31 to O42/O54/O63 to O72/O80.  I just mention this, because if you haven't invested a lot of money into track and switches it might be worth revisiting the decision.  I don't want to poo-poo O27 or O31, but it you are going with an around the basement layout. O36 or even O42 would open up a lot or opportunities in the future.

Jim

You can use larger curves than you probably realize.  Here's a picture of various curves in a corner.  The grid is 12" squares and the centerline of the tracks is 6" from the edge.  Curve diameters are shown in standard 3-rail format.  Two foot wide tables provide lots of room for wide curves.

Hope this helps.

Jan

You do not need multiple transformers, but you do need multiple connections to the track. I would put a connection every three track sections. That may seem like a lot, but once your layout is running and "mature" the track joints/connections will start to degrade electrically.

I agree with Jan about making your curves as wide as possible. You never know if someday you might get a real big locomotive and want to run it. Also, the smaller locomotives and rolling stock look better on wide curves than they do on sharp curves.

No one above has mentioned it yet, but for Old Toy Maker and anyone else planning to run Legacy, DCS, or even many of the modern engines with newer electronics is that you MUST use fast circuit breaker protection. This can easily be added to the output lines of the older transformers but it is essential that you do this!

The older breakers on the transformers are meant to protect the transformer and will not trip quickly enough to protect the engine's electronics.

Not even the fastest acting modern breakers trip quickly enough to protect the engine's electronics. The breakers are still to protect the transformers and wiring, not the electronics, and they will not protect the electronics.

Really?  How long does it take to fry the electronics?  My Lionel 180 bricks seem to pop so easily.  Which electronic pieces are most susceptible  to damage?

grantier,

   1st the KW's are not the transformers you really want to use for this kind of larger layout, pick up a couple old ZW's you can get them used and in good shape for really reasonable money.  Sense you like the tubular conventional track, I suggest you purchase some Tin Plate trains to go along with it, a little at a time, and some good old 711 type switches.

IMO sooner or later you will decide to go into the remote control train world also, it is just incredible.   The one thing I do caution sense you like to purchased used, unless you buy one of these units from a trusted OGR member, stay away from the used remote control systems.  Also remember the old KW & ZW transformer have slow blowing internal breakers, I use the Scott type 7 or 10 Amp quick blowing resettable breakers.

Although I really like tubular track, I now run FasTrack and I love it.

Have fun with your new layout.

PCRR/Dave 

Haha, Granite I think the guys above explained pretty clearly why you need to run a power wire to the track every so many feet.  So yes, the answer as stated above is that you do need to.  Now these fellows are not talking about using lock-ons, they're talking about dropping "feeder" wires of a smaller gauge to an under table "main-bus" of heavier gauge wire.  The main bus runs parallel to your track and connects direct to the transformer; it's carrying the electricity like a freeway.  The feeder wires connect to it like off-ramps from the freeway up to the track itself.  How you connect those feeders to the main-bus is up to you: solder, suitcase connector, terminal blocks, etc.  Also, how you connect the feeder to the track is up to you, either soldering for low visibility or lock on for ease, though I suspect most people will suggest soldering.

As for the 2 levers on your transformer, you're misunderstanding how it works.  Each lever is putting out pretty much the same amount of power.  you cannot attach both levers to the same track unless you crave fireworks and danger.  There is zero benefit to it.  As said above, the power going to the track is going to be determined by how you wire it.  If you research the main-bus method you will get plenty of explanation.  No need to reinvent the wheel, that's just the way it is, we learn to love it and obey!!

Don't overthink the transformer.  It has two handles for a reason, to run two trains.  These things don't need that much power, you just gotta make sure your wire is delivering the power efficiently.  As said above though, you may want to look into a stronger transformer, such as the venerable ZW. 

Don't forget easement curves. Real railroads use changing diameter or easement curves as do some modelers, i.e. larger diameter entrance/exit with tighter diameter center. I have a couple on my small layout and even use then in standard gauge tinplate.

Trains really do look better going through easement curves and I am surprised more folks don't use them on layouts. They can be made easily enough with standard track pieces or really well done with flex track.

Good luck.

An oval in G scale, but it gives you the idea...

Yes, really. Circuit breakers protect from over current, not voltage spikes, which damage electronics at the speed of light(which is a lot faster than than a PoHo breaker). These spikes(visible on a scope) occur as a function of the mechanical transmission of electricity to moving train equipment on the rails, even in the absence of a short or overload, and are accentuated/amplified at the point of the occurrence of a short circuit(like in a derailment).

The damage can be immediate, but is certainly cumulative(like long term hearing loss due to environment), so complete failure is usually delayed.

What the electronics need for protection is Transient Voltage Suppression to clamp those spikes as they happen.

That's a good question - and here are some links to start you off on finding the answer...

Nothing wrong with running with old ZW's, but if I were to purchase an older ZW, I would first make sure that it had been rebuilt by a reputable repairman. 

Other alternatives would be a MRC Dual (new, current street price seems to be about $280) or a MTH Z4000 (for about $390), or a Lionel ZW-L (for about $675).

Jim

Good advice from Rob regarding post war transformer protection by using quick-acting external breakers or fuses. As regards protecting the fragile engine electronics from voltage spikes, [if using modern engines], the use of a TVS is essential [cost about $.50 [each]. A voltage spike will not trip a breaker/blow a fuse, only over-current surges do that. The TVS is very cheap protection of the fragile wires and solder traces on engine circuit boards.

Using a pw ZW transformer which, if in good shape, has an output of 190-200 watts or about 11 amps. Even so, output efficiency,in my experience on continous running, usually declines due to pw ZW heat build up. Also the four throttles of the pw ZW are all wired to the same transformer coil/winding. You can use all the output capacity from a single throttle or share it over 2,3 or 4 throttles.

A 180 watt PowerHouse [PoHo]transformer has a very fast-acting circuit breaker. But as Rob notes, it will not clamp voltage spikes.

I have plans for 3 mainlines on my layout and I was going to power 2 lines with my PW ZW and one line with my PW  KW ( previously said LW). MY question is where in the line would you place the TVS? After the transformer or at each attachment point on the track, and the same question would apply for the circuit breakers.

Ideally, the TVS should be as close to the component(s) to be protested as possible(like, onboard). Practically, at least one bipolar TVS per power district across hot and return. I have recently started putting them inside switch motor housings around the layout.

You might want to consider an electronic circuit breaker.  They will open the circuit in microseconds.  Here's a link to one of several discussions.  This is one about the PSX-AC.

https://ogrforum.com/topic/feedback-on-psx-ac

I just bought two from Charles Ro for my mainlines.  I haven't installed them yet but others have given them high praise.

Jan