Vehicles on layouts: How much is enough?

These are perfect!

Good to hear from you on this topic! Thanks very much, Norm. Would you explain why you say so; I'd love to learn from you.

FrankM

Depends on the scene. We have a few more vehicles that we purchased at the York Meet to go in this area of the layout.

I suppose vintage it depends on what you like, what the goal of your layout is, and how anal retentive one wishes to be.  If the purpose of your layout is fantasy and/or fun, and you don't really care how prototypical things are, then it doesn't really matter.  If you're going for a specific era or scene and seek maximum realism, then it may look goofy with a wide spectrum of vehicles (especially "future" ones). 

For me, the amount of vehicles should be consistent with the overall activity of the scene.  I.e., a busy train station or city center can have a lot of vehicles, but there should be a lot of people, etc. to go with it.  Unless one is modeling a parking lot, many vehicles and a ghost town can look a little ridiculous to me.

I'm sure others may disagree, just my initial $0.02.

Frank, I am a fan of old VWs that's all. But I am also a fan of less is more.

"Depends on the scene.."is an important point to make, it seems to me, Passenger Train Collector.

Some places require one, IMO, as befits the narrative...

...or none...

...but your urban station scene is a busy metropolitan place, isn't it.

I think it really depends on the look you are going for.  Vehicles can be used to add a lot to a scene by adding visual stimulation and hiding large curbes or other problems.  But then if you have a scene that is immaculately detailed like yours, it may take away from the scene if too many are added.  

I think you need to look at it yourself and ask "how many cars would really be here".  Some area's such as a run down part of town might not have many, but then a bustling downtown might be packed!  

It is a personal choice.  What may seem like too many or too few to one person may be just the opposite to another.

Like so many other things in this hobby... Whatever floats yer boat.

But if the scene were intended to narrate about a vibrant urban area?

You can always pile a lot of cars into a small town, if you put a big "Parade Today!"  or some such banner across the downtown/crossroads area.

But you really need the people to match.

.

All your points seem well-taken to me, but I have to pause at the one about figures on the layout. That has been an on-going contention between me and certain another hobbyist , for some time, now. A city-center, for example, seems a place for quite a number of figures, it seems to me, unless one wanted to say the place was experiencing hard-times, right?

FrankM

Let's include the number of figures in this discussion, too, shall we, my fellow hobbyists?

Each approach has its points.  The streets crowded with vehicles imply, to me, mid-day lunch hour traffic.  I like the shot with the cab turning in front of the pickup truck, stuff like that happens all the time on busy streets.  I can imagine the pickup driver leaning on his horn.  (Mechanic to customer: "I couldn't fix your brakes so I made your horn louder.")

The scenes with one and two vehicles indicate a Sunday or a late evening.  A major advantage to this is that the beautifully crafted store fronts are much easier to see.  Maybe pull the hot dog vendor when traffic is this light, hard to make a living when no one is around.

As to era, my feeling is as long as there are no jarring anachronisms, anything goes.

Beautiful modeling, Frank.

Pete

Frank, I just feel that depending on the era, you might see a greater proportion of work and delivery vehicles to personal cars. 

Let me first reply to this particular point by you, Tackyindy. That same point was made by one of the folks with whom I was having the initial discussion. He (a person for whom I have considerable respect) pointed out that once I had removed the parked vehicles, the craft-work involving figures in the scene was able to be shown for its full worth (my words.) And yes, indeed, that has had me considering what my purpose with the overall scene is.

FrankM

My recollection of most towns is that the streets are full of cars.  I know it is difficult to find street parking on the main streets where I live during most of the business day.  It was true when I grew up.  I remember my mother driving around the block looking for parking spaces.  I think that if you want realism you are going to have a fair number of cars.

I think that one thing that doesn't look correct to me is that many scenes have too many convertibles.  You don't see many convertibles with their tops down anyplace including CA where I live.  I don't know why manufacturers make so many convertibles.  I also think that if you are going to have a convertible driving down a street you should put a driver in it.  

I also don't care for mixing vehicle eras.  I think that that a 1950s town should have 1950s cars and earlier.  

In the end, it is your layout.  Do what pleases you.  Joe

Crucial points, from my specific perspective, actually, Fridge56Vet. You see, originally - back as far as the first construction of my layout in 1994 is concerned - I indulged myself with purchases of vehicles by happenstance with no design in mind whatsoever, just for fun. They were placed about the layout for color and flash and a bit more interest easily provided by vintages dear to many folks who lived through several decades of outstanding cars and trucks. I deliberately placed the vehicles to draw the attention of visitors - non-hobbyist visitors - into and out of the various scenes and neighborhoods, all of it drawn together by the whirl on ten trains and a trolley zipping around and among the neighborhoods.

However, since the initial layout, my interest in more realistic scenery grew, and my fingers learned to provide more interest through realism. The products available through vendors of kits, and foliage, and ground-covers, etc. expanded and made more choices and creative-expression possible. I came to quickly see that the realistic scenes themselves drew praise and attention just by their very realism, among the whole.

Thus surfaced the question of vintage and number of vehicles. "What is the purpose of that scene?" I have come to ask myself. And I have come to ask that question, now. And I have come to ask myself, "What is the purpose of the whole layout - to demonstrate my crafting abilities via various vignettes, or to provide a model train ride through fantasy-land? Or...?

FrankM.

Frank - This is a fun topic.  I'm now thinking that I probably have too many cars on the streets of my small town.  I can justify having as many if it is a Saturday afternoon or a Friday night, but what mood or scene do I want to portray?  And as has been suggested a parade or special event would cause more people. but not more cars unless they are in the parade. 

Another interesting point that was made was how much more your buildings and people on the street stand out with fewer cars distracting your attention.  It seems there is a happy mix or balance that we must experiment with to achieve.

Art

Oh, I know I can do what pleases me, Joe, but I also listen to what others have to say, too. And since we have so many beautiful layouts being shared on this forum, I have certainly learned from them.

In fact, before I built the first section of platform, in 1994, and during its construction, I poured over all the model train magazines I could find, buying them every month, and learning through looking what could be done. I just wasn't sure I could do it. Then, I learned some more, mostly by getting the products in my hands and giving it a try.

The opinion of my peers in this hobby is very important to me.

For example, where this model stands in one neighborhood, no neighborhood existed at one time. A corner of a roundhouse stood there, but such a site quickly left our interest, and one day, my wife said, waving a hand over the roundhouse and RR yard, "Get rid of it." And I did. She was right. A more interesting neighborhood has grown in its place, one way more realistic and of interest to my friends and to my wife and me.

A model of my wife's childhood home in a suburban neighborhood. A model of her first car stands in front, for pure nostalgia..

A photo I took as a boy looking out a clothing store's window, back in the 50's on Fifth Avenue in McKeesport, PA. one afternoon...

To me there's no right or wrong answer. It's your layout. If you like it a certain way then that's ok.

Keys points, Art; I think that is exactly what I am trying to learn and get a perspective on by asking these questions here, to add to what I gathered when the question was first put to me before I posted this thread.

And,man, replies like yours are an excellent way to gain a perspective!

FrankM

Thanks, Spence. Always very good to hear from you, on any topic.

It's not a matter of "right or wrong" for me. Rather, I am finding new ways of enjoying our hobby and my layout, and making possible changes is one of  them. Going to my peers is a fine way to get a perspective of any changes that my imagination might be considering.

For example, here is how a section of the layout was (circa 1994) ...

..and how it is now...

I've learned stuff.

FrankM

I agree.  We all tend to gravitate to excessively overdo scenes and then overload of the scene happens all too easily.  That probably happens more from a because we can, we do condition.  However, we are also very seriously compressing scenes albeit in scale and that compression can also then easily overcrowd the visual.  So, backing away or down from what one's instincts might demand, letting the scene details speak for themselves - "less is more" - can have a greater visual impact on what your scene is meant to convey.

OTOH, I think by the time I get done with my little town of Lemasters there might only be one or 2 motor vehicles on the road........along with the 2-3 horse(mule) powered vehicles,

Frank,

In the pictures you provided, I really like the scene with less cars.

I am guilty of what I am about to say:

When there are a lot of vehicles, I quickly notice that all the cars seem to have the same unrealistic shine.  It destroys the scene on a detailed layout.

The second problem, and one that is a lot harder to overcome, is that when you have a lot of oversized 1/43 cars in one place, they draw unwanted attention to the fact that they are oversized.

To your question Moonson, I think it depends on both the layout and on the look you are trying to achieve.  

Regardless, I think you have way too many cars - in fact just too much stuff, in the opening photos of your first posting.  Part of this is the layout and the amount of compression it has in sidewalk and street width and building spacing.  The street width is very compressed, and as a result it is easy to overfill with cars (and a loco so close to the buildings).  all of us tend to compress, and when we do that reduces the amount of "stuff" whether cars or whatever, that you can fit without achieving a claustrophobic look - I'm not sure where the line is there but your first images are way past it.  You final images with many many things reduced is better, and definately on the other side.  A few more vehicles would do.  

Part of the answer has to do with the look or image you want, too.  Look at the train station photo that passenger train collector posted.  Note his street is not that wide, but he has a wide parking lot and a lot of room.  He pretty much fills up the street and lot with cars to get the look of lots of activity and crowding that he wants.  Its a good scene and I imagine he and his wife just worked at it adding and moving cars, 'til it looked right.

On my layout I have placed cars in nearly  every parking spot and a lot, but not too much, traffic on the streets, to get just the look I want - a bustling downtown on a busy day, but no overcrowding.  Its a matter for the artists eye to determine and each of us has a slightly different eye - but as they say, you know it when you see it.   

What I think is most commonly wrong on layouts is the amount of traffic on the street, rather than the number of cars parked at the curb

This answers the whole topic, IMHO.

Less is more in that scene.   I also liked that older car rather than the more modern.

As for my particular scenario….Trains are the foundation of our system of commerce.(even more during the 30's to 60's)If we need trains we need "people" ...that demand consumer products.And a lot of them.People need cars to get to work.My layout is mostly steel mill.I need parking lots with a thousand cars in them as a symbol of American prosperity and industrial might.No further questions.Nick

Interesting. So, here's another question. Would you find this scene, given your expressed viewpoint, here, Nick of Rockstars1989, appropriately peopled and supplied w/ vehicles?

FrankM

Very nice work, whatever makes you happy is fine with us!

Remember that unless all their patrons are in walking distance, for the baker, the grocer, the druggist the barber, etc. to survive they must have customers with cars and on street parking. Think if you looked at most town scenes there will be cars in front of stores with parking meters. While Grand Central in New York may have taxi's around it (we have never been there) Union Station in Chicago is surrounded by streets if memory is correct and does not.

Some of the early vehicles like Mack Bulldogs last for years and years.  In industrial cities the Bulldogs did not thin out the coming of the Interstate System after 1953.  Like a Bulldog  in Chicago in 1949.

Even in the 1970s there were times when streetcars in Toronto had the streets to themselves on Sunday mornings or a holiday morning.  That is something you just don't see anymore with today's 24/7 lifestyle in big cities. But from my condo I look down over the main street of a small city of 40,000 and the streets are light with vehicles early morning, Sundays, holidays, after about 9 in the evening and all night.

I tend to think of model automobiles on a layout as a unit of scenic measurement. Too many can give away the size of a scene unintentionally because of the tendency of the human brain to automatically start judging distances when looking at things. I also worry about stuff like this when planting telegraph poles.

Nice to know those Mack ACs (?) survived into the 50s! What a neat street shot...

If you model the WW2 era, you can get too many vehicles very fast. Not many civilian autos were on the road during gas rationing. I have five normal civilian vehicles on my layout, most from the early to mid 30s:

• Two pickup trucks
• 2-door car
• Two delivery vans (one the size of a large moving truck, the other a panel van)

I also have three Army GMC GCCW 2 1/2 ton trucks, and a few Jeeps (not sure how many will be used on the layout yet) for a Army building near the end of track.

But that'll be it for me. Anything more would look very out of place for the timeframe.

I love little model cars and have more than I need but, on a layout, I think less is more. They obscure so many details of a city scene that I enjoy more.  When I dismantled my old layout I put the vehicles in boxes where they still are. Someday I plan to get some of them out because I like them. Plus, why not put cars on the layout then take some off periodically to change things a little. Even mix up the ratio of cars and trucks. From the layout photos I have seen in magazines there are way too many people and vehicles.

I love model cars.  I always have - I have a collection of 1:43 race cars that, while cool, would look pretty goofy on my layout.  I also love 50's/60's cars.  Especially late 50's early 60's - many of those designs were just absolutely outrageous!!!   Cars were more fun then; it was more about style than efficiency, safety, and outright performance.  So... that's what's on my layout.   Sometimes the trains match the era, and sometimes they don't, but considering that steam soldiered on into the mid-late 1950's, I'm never far off. I admit that the '70 Cuda and the '63 Split Window are a bit, shall we say, "out of range", but they are two personal favorites that trump protocol.  I will say that almost everyone on my layout is wealthy - lots of Cadillacs and higher end stuff - even the Fords are fancy, but for the most part everything is period-correct depending on the trains I run.  

AS for quantity, I put as many out as I can - I enjoy the cars almost as much as the trains.   I don't stack them up like a parking lot, but there are plenty of cars and people in them.  

PS:  Occasionally the 'Back To the Future' DeLorean makes an appearance.  Technically, its ALWAYS period-correct    The Batmobile, on the other hand...

There is no right or wrong answer, we like what we have and sometimes change it about. When my Granddaughters come over, they climb on the layout and very carefully remove all the cars, trucks and tractors; never touching the trains (they are very careful where they stand (a little guidance from Papa).

The layouts seen on this forum are all, in my opinion outstanding and I will probably never achieve the degree or beauty on my layout but that doesn't keep me from enjoying it but not putting pictures on the forum.

Brent

Thank you for your input and an interesting point to read, Lima, because just around the corner, on the next block are...

FrankM

Tha Batmobile goes back to the 40s, and a company called Eaglemoss is making 1/43 scale versions of most of them: http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/...lemoss%20Automobilia

As for the back to the future delorian, I've always thought about that as well as a TARDIS for somewhere in the back of the layout once the scenery is done. I know of a guy who modified one of them and weathered the heck out of it and put several bullet holes in it and then stuck it in a junk yard, as if Marty or the Doc got to his layout's timeframe and the time machine was destroyed.