Which O gauge track should I buy for my ceiling shelf train layout?

I think all the current track systems made today are good ones, but none are perfect. Something with solid rail will be the quietest (Atlas or Scaletrax are the only two I know of). I am guessing that tubular or Gargraves will be the least expensive. Just a guess, but I imagine Gargraves (with wooden ties) will probably be a little quieter than tubular. Ross also has track with wooden ties. I don't know where Ross track comes in cost wise? Some sort of roadbed (cork, carpet or some other type of pad) would add to the noise reduction.

Also, just another thought here. I have never had a ceiling layout, but the idea of some sort of guard rail around the track to prevent trains from going to the floor sure sounds like a good idea. I have seen some videos of ceiling layouts with no guard rails and it looks a little scary to me.

I would still pick Atlas as it is the quietest track.

What's the best place online to get Atlas? Quiet is important since my wife is barely letting me do this in the first place.

sinclair posted:

I would still pick Atlas as it is the quietest track.

Do you know if it's any quieter than ScaleTrax which is also solid rail? I'm still torn between Atlas and SacelTrax, but I think ScaleTrax might be cheaper and I really like the look of ScaleTrax.

I used Gargraves on my upper/lower ceiling layout, and used some thin lexan strips held up with thumbtacks as a "guard", just in case of derailment.  You can't see the track, and I don't think the delta noise between track manufacturers is a driving factor.

Dave

Thanks for the response and picture Dave. I would private message you but I don't know how to yet. What kind of wood did you use for your shelf?

email is in profile.

Here is what I posted before in a ceiling layout post:

I used 3/4 x 6" pre-painted stock board from Lowes/Home Depot for the "straights" as the "roadbed base".  I took 6-8" tall baseboard molding, white, and screwed and nailed it (from behind) to the edge of the generic board - think now "L" shaped cross section.  Single track is on the horizontal part of the "L", the vertical part is nailed to the wall studs.  Mounted close to the ceiling and painted both the "L" and the wall up to the ceiling in white semi-gloss, so it now looks like pseudo crown-molding.  I personally like this approach and would do it again in a heartbeat.  I used wider board for the curves, to avoid plywood, and o-72 was a must for me.  In two long 17' runs, I added one small 1/2" x 1/2" support that I nailed to the ceiling to remove the deflection/sag in the long run.  I then used a thin 3" strip of lexan, on the outside edge, held on with white thumbtacks, to help avoid any minor derailments and cars coming crashing down 7'.  The thumbtack mounted lexan won't stop a heavy engine, but I took the risk that that wouldn't derail.  I've had 2 derailments in 5 years, all cars, and not one has come down.  If I did it again, I'd probably take the time to route a groove in the base and have the lexan slide in, vs. thumb tacks.  I added a second shelf below the first.  Similar construction, but used a smaller board instead of baseboard molding.

I used GarGraves on top of cork roadbed.  For now, I haven't fastened the track to the shelf, but I only have made slow test runs since I have only put up shelves 3/4 of the way around the room.  Once it is all in place, I'll fasten it down.  The shelves are deep enough for two tracks, and I was thinking of putting tubular next to the wall, just because I have a lot of it to use up.

I used extruded foam with the skin coat of polyethlene removed as roadbed over 3/4" fir plywood which my wife insisted I stain---the shelf layout is in her kitchen. Used Gargraves Flex track.

Here is the shelf layout in my son's room. It is sitting on Fastrack that is not fastened down at all. It is not that loud.

DoubleDAZ posted:

sinclair posted:

I would still pick Atlas as it is the quietest track.

Do you know if it's any quieter than ScaleTrax which is also solid rail? I'm still torn between Atlas and SacelTrax, but I think ScaleTrax might be cheaper and I really like the look of ScaleTrax.

I don't know between ScaleTrax and Atlas which is quieter because I didn't look at ScaleTrax because I didn't care for the look and my understanding was that it is no longer solid rail, but now hollow and only the older stuff was solid.

The track types I tested was FasTrack, Atlas, Gragraves/Ross, and tubular.  To me the best sound was Atlas on cork.

sinclair posted:

DoubleDAZ posted:

sinclair posted:

I would still pick Atlas as it is the quietest track.

Do you know if it's any quieter than ScaleTrax which is also solid rail? I'm still torn between Atlas and SacelTrax, but I think ScaleTrax might be cheaper and I really like the look of ScaleTrax.

I don't know between ScaleTrax and Atlas which is quieter because I didn't look at ScaleTrax because I didn't care for the look and my understanding was that it is no longer solid rail, but now hollow and only the older stuff was solid.

The track types I tested was FasTrack, Atlas, Gragraves/Ross, and tubular.  To me the best sound was Atlas on cork.

Glad I asked because if that's true about ScaleTrax, I need to rework my design to see what fits using Atlas. Thanks for the heads-up.

Realtrax is now hollow rail, it was originally solid rail. I am 99% certain that Scaletrax is still solid rail. Also, MTH's website and literature still describe it as having solid nickel-silver rails. I use Atlas track, but have never compared Scaletrax to Atlas for sound as Scaletrax is the only track system my LHS does not carry. I would imagine the sound level between the two would be similar. Flexxbed (vinyl roadbed) will quiet things down even more, although it is not inexpensive. Atlas track (or maybe Scaletrax) and Flexxbed could arguably be one of the quietest installations available.

Okay, I could of mixed up RealTrax and ScaleTrax.  Either way, I personally don't like the look of MTH's roadbedless track, so I never looked into it more.

Thanks, Sinclair. I should have thought you might have been thinking RealTrax, not ScaleTrax.

RTR, I'm still on the fence and haven't had time to work on my design to see how Atlas would work. I do know how quiet Atlas is and it just doesn't seem like too many use ScaleTrax even though it seems quite a bit cheaper. To be sure, Atlas is more substantial looking and I don't know if the smaller profile of ScaleTrax causes problems, especially with the tight curves I'll be using. However, it appears to be closer to scale and I would have thought that would have drawn users to it. Maybe it's just a lack of availability and the fact that Atlas has been around.

Is the difference in sound really that much between solid rail track and traditional tubular?  I wouldn't think it would make much difference  when you're screwed down to a big piece of wood in open air that will resonate the sound anyway.  

If it were me, for track that you can't see anyway, I would use Traditional tubular, and probably used track since it doesn't matter if it's not shinny, though new Menards track is less expensive than used track for wide curves.   Stop by a carpet store and see if they have any scraps a few inches wide that you can use as roadbed to pretty much kill any sound.  If not, just buy some at a home improvement store.  

Just don't see the point in expensive track that will never be seen.  

JGL

DoubleDAZ posted:

Thanks, Sinclair. I should have thought you might have been thinking RealTrax, not ScaleTrax.

RTR, I'm still on the fence and haven't had time to work on my design to see how Atlas would work. I do know how quiet Atlas is and it just doesn't seem like too many use ScaleTrax even though it seems quite a bit cheaper. To be sure, Atlas is more substantial looking and I don't know if the smaller profile of ScaleTrax causes problems, especially with the tight curves I'll be using. However, it appears to be closer to scale and I would have thought that would have drawn users to it. Maybe it's just a lack of availability and the fact that Atlas has been around.

I read a lot about track before picking one. I was all set to use Fastrack (didn't know much about Atlas at the time), I like the looks if it, it is a well thought out system, has built in roadbed, and many other things. Then I heard how noisy it was which was a game changer for me and I had to re-group. I still like the looks of it and think it's a very well designed track system. I may still use it for some temporary layouts in the future, I really would like to have a loop or two of it just to fiddle with.

Anyway, that is when I started researching all the other available track systems which was about 5 years ago. After that, I decided solid rail was the way to go and narrowed it down to Atlas and Scaletrax. All track systems have their own little quirks, most of which can be overcome. Scaletrax seemed to have more quirks and definitely had much less selection available in the way of curves and switches. Atlas has a much better selection of curves and switches and I decided I really liked the look of it better than Scaletrax. I like the Atlas rail joiners, beefier rails, the ties and tie spacing among other things. Also, as I said above, Scaletrax is the only track my LHS does not carry and seemed to be difficult to get. Atlas was in good supply back then and easy to get. So Atlas was the clear choice for me.

As I understand it the Scaletrax is still difficult to find and as you say not many people seem to be using it. I don't know, but maybe it is more plentiful in other areas? We only have one train store that has a good selection of O gauge around here so there is nothing to compare to. I later read some posts here by Dave Hikel addressing all the Scaletrax quirks so I now think it is probably a good system and if you do a few things up front will be quite reliable on a layout. Of course Dave Hikel is way above me in experience level and knowledge, but if he likes the Scaletrax and is a professional layout builder, it can't be all that bad. I also can't imagine the noise level of Scaletrax being that much different than Atlas since they are both solid rail, nickel-silver. I can say with certainty that Atlas it pretty quiet, even with no road bed. I have reead from some folks here that the Scaletrax is more to scale size in the rails than Atlas, but the tie spacing is off on Scaletrax and Atlas has that part right. I am pretty prototypically challenged so I really don't know the difference, other than I like the looks of Atlas track which is also my favorite and my opinion is probably somewhat biased.

JohnGaltLine posted:

Is the difference in sound really that much between solid rail track and traditional tubular?  I wouldn't think it would make much difference  when you're screwed down to a big piece of wood in open air that will resonate the sound anyway.  

If it were me, for track that you can't see anyway, I would use Traditional tubular, and probably used track since it doesn't matter if it's not shinny, though new Menards track is less expensive than used track for wide curves.   Stop by a carpet store and see if they have any scraps a few inches wide that you can use as roadbed to pretty much kill any sound.  If not, just buy some at a home improvement store.  

Just don't see the point in expensive track that will never be seen.  

JGL

To me the hollow rail track is quite a bit louder than solid rail track, with Atlas being the only solid rail track I have any experience with. To me, Atlas is pretty quiet, even with no roadbed. I have read many posts here that say carpet or carpet pad or even carpet with pad really quiet it down a lot. I have now come around to thinking the hollow rail track can be quieted down and maybe even quite a bit. However, I have never tried this or made a comparison so I can not say for sure.

One other thing to consider here is the way people hear things. Although I really like Fastrack, it was way too loud for me. Others here say it is not loud at all and they actually think it's pretty quiet. Makes me think a lot of this has to do with everyone's differences in ears and hearing. Just like our preferences for track systems or engines, we are all really quite different in many areas.

JohnGaltLine posted:

Is the difference in sound really that much between solid rail track and traditional tubular?  I wouldn't think it would make much difference  when you're screwed down to a big piece of wood in open air that will resonate the sound anyway.  

If it were me, for track that you can't see anyway, I would use Traditional tubular, and probably used track since it doesn't matter if it's not shinny, though new Menards track is less expensive than used track for wide curves.   Stop by a carpet store and see if they have any scraps a few inches wide that you can use as roadbed to pretty much kill any sound.  If not, just buy some at a home improvement store.  

Just don't see the point in expensive track that will never be seen.  

JGL

That is the question. My home is single story and the door to the train room is only 13' from the family room. I don't want to disturb someone trying to watch TV in the family room when I have 3 or 4 trains running. I don't plan on screwing the track to plywood, I plan on using Homasote or another sound-absorbing material on top of plywood, so I don't think resonating will be an issue. However, who builds a layout using 3-4 different track brands to compare noise levels? No one. So there is no definitive answer to the noise question. Most folks tend to say the noise level of their layout is acceptable, but we all have different definitions of "acceptable", not to mention the locations that influence noise acceptability. What I know from experience is that a layout using RealTrax on indoor/outdoor carpet/plywood is a lot noisier than Atlas on Homasote/plywood. What I don't know is if another brand track would be just as quiet on the Homasote/plywood. I don't want to waste money, but I'm willing to spend extra if a given brand is quieter.

When it comes to using any old track where they can't be seen, that is not going to happen. My layout is small and likely all but one hidden section will be visible. And it's going to be hard enough keeping those tracks clean, so using old track is out of the question for me. If I'm going to do this, I want to start will all new. Unlike a lot of folks, I have virtually no track inventory other than the RealTrax that came with the set. I realize I could get a lot of used track, but most used track is being sold for a reason. I guess I just have my mind set on Atlas or ScaleTrax and the big draw to ScaleTrax is their easier to use FlexTrack. I wish I had a LHS where I could "touch" various brands of track. I expect to visit Legacy Station in April, so maybe they'll have some that I can see for myself. My LHS carries Atlas, so I'll be heading over there soon to take a harder look at it and do some pricing.

here's something I did and it seemed to help I didn't really have loud train running on my shelf layout I had. I used 1" x 8"x 12' sections of Pine and put indoor outdoor carpet on top of that. I used Gargraves track. I bought what is know as liquid electrical tape and put it on every screw I use to mount the track to the boards. The liquid electrical tape gave it a barrier to keep the sound from transmitting straight into the wood. Which kept the sound down. I don't think you can completely eliminate the noise but you can do things to reduce it.  

RTR, you've summed things up quite nicely and I hate to keep bringing it up, but as you can see, there is no definitive answer to the noise question. If my layout were going to be in a basement or upstairs bonus room, I probably wouldn't care as much about noise, but I can't get past how nice the Black Diamond Railroad looks or how quiet Atlas track is on the Scottsdale layout. I think ScaleTrax would be just as quiet, so if it weren't for the question of availability, that would be my choice. And when I say availability, I'm not talking discounted online prices. I have no problem supporting MTH or an LHS that carries ScaleTrax. I'm concerned about the fact that very few modelers seem to use ScaleTrax and those who do, don't seem to post here. I wish my LHS carried at least one piece of ScaleTrax FlexTrack so I could check it out. My layout requires a few pieces of flexible track, so those are the only brands I'm considering, though I can't really say why, I'm not really considering GarGraves. Your point about Atlas tie spacing is noted, but that doesn't seem to bother me because I don't k now much about tie spacing in the first place.

DoubleDAZ posted:

 

JohnGaltLine posted:

Is the difference in sound really that much between solid rail track and traditional tubular?  I wouldn't think it would make much difference  when you're screwed down to a big piece of wood in open air that will resonate the sound anyway.  

If it were me, for track that you can't see anyway, I would use Traditional tubular, and probably used track since it doesn't matter if it's not shinny, though new Menards track is less expensive than used track for wide curves.   Stop by a carpet store and see if they have any scraps a few inches wide that you can use as roadbed to pretty much kill any sound.  If not, just buy some at a home improvement store.  

Just don't see the point in expensive track that will never be seen.  

JGL

That is the question. My home is single story and the door to the train room is only 13' from the family room. I don't want to disturb someone trying to watch TV in the family room when I have 3 or 4 trains running. I don't plan on screwing the track to plywood, I plan on using Homasote or another sound-absorbing material on top of plywood, so I don't think resonating will be an issue. However, who builds a layout using 3-4 different track brands to compare noise levels? No one. So there is no definitive answer to the noise question. Most folks tend to say the noise level of their layout is acceptable, but we all have different definitions of "acceptable", not to mention the locations that influence noise acceptability. What I know from experience is that a layout using RealTrax on indoor/outdoor carpet/plywood is a lot noisier than Atlas on Homasote/plywood. What I don't know is if another brand track would be just as quiet on the Homasote/plywood. I don't want to waste money, but I'm willing to spend extra if a given brand is quieter.

When it comes to using any old track where they can't be seen, that is not going to happen. My layout is small and likely all but one hidden section will be visible. And it's going to be hard enough keeping those tracks clean, so using old track is out of the question for me. If I'm going to do this, I want to start will all new. Unlike a lot of folks, I have virtually no track inventory other than the RealTrax that came with the set. I realize I could get a lot of used track, but most used track is being sold for a reason. I guess I just have my mind set on Atlas or ScaleTrax and the big draw to ScaleTrax is their easier to use FlexTrack. I wish I had a LHS where I could "touch" various brands of track. I expect to visit Legacy Station in April, so maybe they'll have some that I can see for myself. My LHS carries Atlas, so I'll be heading over there soon to take a harder look at it and do some pricing.

Are you referring to the Legacy Station in Lilburn, GA?

DoubleDAZ posted:

RTR, you've summed things up quite nicely and I hate to keep bringing it up, but as you can see, there is no definitive answer to the noise question. If my layout were going to be in a basement or upstairs bonus room, I probably wouldn't care as much about noise, but I can't get past how nice the Black Diamond Railroad looks or how quiet Atlas track is on the Scottsdale layout. I think ScaleTrax would be just as quiet, so if it weren't for the question of availability, that would be my choice. And when I say availability, I'm not talking discounted online prices. I have no problem supporting MTH or an LHS that carries ScaleTrax. I'm concerned about the fact that very few modelers seem to use ScaleTrax and those who do, don't seem to post here. I wish my LHS carried at least one piece of ScaleTrax FlexTrack so I could check it out. My layout requires a few pieces of flexible track, so those are the only brands I'm considering, though I can't really say why, I'm not really considering GarGraves. Your point about Atlas tie spacing is noted, but that doesn't seem to bother me because I don't k now much about tie spacing in the first place.

Thanks. I have looked at Gargraves track. It looks very nice and has wood ties, but it is also hollow rail and steel like tubular. The only track besides Atlas that I have any experience with is tubular, Realtrax (the hollow rail type) and a little Fastrack. One other thing about the Atlas track is it seldom needs cleaning, or at least I seldom clean mine anyway. I imagine the Scaletrax would also be similar as it is the same rail type. Not sure if lack of cleaning is good or bad, but it's much easier.

I will try to remember to ask my LHS why they don't carry Scaletrax. They carry every other kind available including Gargraves and Ross? I have thought about asking them before, but I don't think I have ever gotten around to actually asking them? If I did, I've forgotten what they said? Pictures and the switch in the gondola car are the only Scaletrax I have ever seen and the switch in gondola was still in the box so I couldn't examine it very closely. 

Hehe, there are some definite advantages to being prototypically challenged, as I am, as in the tie spacing. I don't know the differences so I am happy with pretty much everything out there. Same goes with the trains. Some people complain about Gargraves ties, they look fine to me. They are wood and a little larger, but they still look good to me.

I'd be interested in what they have to say if you remember to ask them, I suspect it's due to availability issues. I just looked at our schedule for Mar/Apr in Georgia and it doesn't look like I'll get to Legacy Station after all. I'll get over to my LHS eventually and ask them too, probably get the same answer.

I'm not hung up on appearance, just that the Black Diamond layout and the layout I saw in Burbank looked really nice. But then so does the Scottsdale layout and those guys are easy to talk to, so another trip over there is in order too.

I used Baltic Birch plywood and dimensional birch for the wall mounted support brackets. Track is Lionel tubular mounted on Woodland Scenics  foam. The foam and the track are glued down, no screws.  It is so quiet that with all sounds turned off all you hear is the wheels on the track joints.

Will try to remember to ask and report back, I'm going again on Friday.