Would someone be kind enough to help me?

People will ask questions, such as:  What brand of track do you plan to use?  How wide is your widest desired radius, and/or ...what is the tightest radius your equipment can accept?  (I can't help as my track program is an old Atlas one Atlas no longer supports)

Hi PONZ,

Here's a thread that might interest you. It has 8 pages full of display layouts with pictures and plans drawn up by many folks on this forum. Might give you some ideas on how to proceed. Here is the link;

https://ogrforum.com/t...-and-postwar-layouts

Thanks - I'll be using the 37" sections of Gargrave track (on order) so I can utilize every bit of space.  I believe I'll need O72 curves because I have a small fleet of Lionel Pullman Heavyweights that I'd like to run in addition to a few Lionel Streamliners..

Thanks!!

Ponz, is your table configuration like what I posted in the other thread? Two 4x8 tables forming a large 8x8 table pushed into a corner to give you access on only 2 sides? If it is and you want O72 curves, you are really going to be limited. I'll repost the photo here so we have a point of reference.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Ponz, is your table configuration like what I posted in the other thread? Two 4x8 tables forming a large 8x8 table pushed into a corner to give you access on only 2 sides? If it is and you want O72 curves, you are really going to be limited. I'll repost the photo here so we have a point of reference.

 

Yes Dave - two 4x8s with an extra 6 inches on one side.  The reason I'm suggesting O72 curves is because I have a few Lionel Pullman Heavyweights that "I believe" require O72.  I have other cars also that could run on a more narrow curve.  I'd just have to swap trains out periodically.  I was looking at this attached layout, but it doesn't leave much room for scenery.  I'd also have to incorporate a pop-up since there are walls on 2 sides.

Ponz

See what the minimum curve size is first before laying any track, do you really need 072 curves? If so you will be limited to train running space or you could put a second smaller curve track inside like 054. 

A good way to see what size curve you need is run your trains on a friend's layout or at a club layout with a few different size curves. Maybe a local hobby shop will let you run your passenger cars on their layout.

Another thing to consider is having an elevated track, you can run more trains in the same space. I used one inch round dowel rods to support my elevated track. 

Lee Fritz

That's a nice example you posted and shows that you just want some O72 curves, not only O72 curves, my error. The assumption there is your rolling stock will run through tighter curves and that's great if they will. Unfortunately, the O72-O31-O72 configuration will not work with GarGraves. For one, GarGraves doesn't offer O31, they offer O32. Now, one would think that wouldn't make a difference, but it makes a huge difference because their O32 is 45° while their O72 is 30°. As a result, the combo doesn't match up to make the quarter arc needed to form an oval. Lionel's O31 is 45° and their O72 is 22.5°, half of 45°, so the combo works. Even the O54-O32-O54 GarGraves inside combo won't work because they're both 45°.

However, all is not lost as long as you're willing to cut custom lengths. If you cut the O32 to 2/3 it's length, you'll get 30°. You can then make a quarter arc with O32c-O72-O32c (where "c" stands for cut). And while the O32-O54-O32 combo won't work, an O54-O32 combo will, though I don't know if everything else will line up properly. FWIW, here's what I was able to put together rather quickly using your example. There are several custom cuts and I didn't check spacing, etc.

DoubleDAZ posted:

That's a nice example you posted and shows that you just want some O72 curves, not only O72 curves, my error. The assumption there is your rolling stock will run through tighter curves and that's great if they will. Unfortunately, the O72-O31-O72 configuration will not work with GarGraves. For one, GarGraves doesn't offer O31, they offer O32. Now, one would think that wouldn't make a difference, but it makes a huge difference because their O32 is 45° while their O72 is 30°. As a result, the combo doesn't match up to make the quarter arc needed to form an oval. Lionel's O31 is 45° and their O72 is 22.5°, half of 45°, so the combo works. Even the O54-O32-O54 GarGraves inside combo won't work because they're both 45°.

However, all is not lost as long as you're willing to cut custom lengths. If you cut the O32 to 2/3 it's length, you'll get 30°. You can then make a quarter arc with O32c-O72-O32c (where "c" stands for cut). And while the O32-O54-O32 combo won't work, an O54-O32 combo will, though I don't know if everything else will line up properly. FWIW, here's what I was able to put together rather quickly using your example. There are several custom cuts and I didn't check spacing, etc.

 

Dave - As I mentioned (I think) I ordered the Gargraves "flexible track", so it can be bent to any curve - right?

With the example I posted I could run my long cars on the outside loop and shorter cars on the inside loops - right??

Ponz

phillyreading posted:

See what the minimum curve size is first before laying any track, do you really need 072 curves? If so you will be limited to train running space or you could put a second smaller curve track inside like 054. 

A good way to see what size curve you need is run your trains on a friend's layout or at a club layout with a few different size curves. Maybe a local hobby shop will let you run your passenger cars on their layout.

Another thing to consider is having an elevated track, you can run more trains in the same space. I used one inch round dowel rods to support my elevated track. 

Lee Fritz

Elevation is an option Lee...

Ponz

I don't know how tight GarGraves flextrack can be bent, but there's a recent thread showing how to bend it using a set of forms made from plywood. I don't believe it's anywhere near as flexible as HO flextrack is.

Don't forget access to the tracks. It appears that you would need at least one, maybe two, access hatches.

Alex

Ingeniero No1 posted:

Don't forget access to the tracks. It appears that you would need at least one, maybe two, access hatches.

Alex

Yep - That will be one of the difficult parts since I have walls on 2 sides.

Ponz

It is up to you, how you value the unconnected small loop vs. the scenery space, but to ME, that small loop is burning a LOT of potential scenery space.

 If you are talking about Lionel's 18" Heavyweight cars, mine ran on 054 Realtrax under the Christmas Tree for the last couple of years without any trouble, even backing them through an 054 crossover, with just a 5" straight between the diverging legs of the switches(I needed the 5" section for the insulated track section to separate power blocks). I would try to give 5" or so (center rail to center rail) between the curves. I had built a 5.5'x8' platform for my Christmas Tree, Carpet & Western several years ago, and with 5.5" spacing between the 054 and 042 curves, with 18" K Line passenger cars on the 054 outside loop, and a Lionmaster Big Boy on the next loop(042 w/054 easements) there was maybe 1/8" clearance between the cab overhang, and the passenger car's under cut, basically I simply got LUCKY.

[URL=http://s269.photobucket.com/user/challenger3980/media/Picture374.jpg.html][IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/al...r3980/Picture374.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

 

[URL=http://s269.photobucket.com/user/challenger3980/media/Picture387.jpg.html][IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/al...r3980/Picture387.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

 

[URL=http://s269.photobucket.com/user/challenger3980/media/Picture387.jpg.html][IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/al...r3980/Picture387.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

 

Doug

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

challenger3980 posted:

It is up to you, how you value the unconnected small loop vs. the scenery space, but to ME, that small loop is burning a LOT of potential scenery space.

 If you are talking about Lionel's 18" Heavyweight cars, mine ran on 054 Realtrax under the Christmas Tree for the last couple of years without any trouble, even backing them through an 054 crossover, with just a 5" straight between the diverging legs of the switches(I needed the 5" section for the insulated track section to separate power blocks). I would try to give 5" or so (center rail to center rail) between the curves. I had built a 5.5'x8' platform for my Christmas Tree, Carpet & Western several years ago, and with 5.5" spacing between the 054 and 042 curves, with 18" K Line passenger cars on the 054 outside loop, and a Lionmaster Big Boy on the next loop(042 w/054 easements) there was maybe 1/8" clearance between the cab overhang, and the passenger car's under cut, basically I simply got LUCKY.

[URL=http://s269.photobucket.com/user/challenger3980/media/Picture374.jpg.html][IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/al...r3980/Picture374.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

 

[URL=http://s269.photobucket.com/user/challenger3980/media/Picture387.jpg.html][IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/al...r3980/Picture387.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

 

[URL=http://s269.photobucket.com/user/challenger3980/media/Picture387.jpg.html][IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/al...r3980/Picture387.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

 

Doug

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Doug - It's encouraging to hear my heavyweights might run on O54.  If I decide to go with the above layout vs an over and under loop that small loop area will HAVE to be used as an access hatch no matter what's on it.

Ponz

I only worked up the layout to show you how it would look using GarGraves. In no way do I suggest that is what you should do with the space.

DoubleDAZ posted:

I only worked up the layout to show you how it would look using GarGraves. In no way do I suggest that is what you should do with the space.

I know that Dave and I very much appreciate your help!  I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this avoiding rework and damaged track, of course.

Ponz

Here's a try at a Figure 8 using O54 plus some 1/3 O54 and a cut 5" straight with 4% grades. I don't know if these examples are helpful or not, but I hope they show what you are up against.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Here's a try at a Figure 8 using O54 plus some 1/3 O54 and a cut 5" straight with 4% grades. I don't know if these examples are helpful or not, but I hope they show what you are up against.

 

I know.  I'm up against a wall, and two of them at that!

Ponz

Ponz posted:

Hello Everyone ... I've acquired a few locomotives, passenger (Lionel Pullman Heavyweights) and freight cars, a few buildings, etc ...  I only have 8'x8.5' to work with.  Oh!  The layout is also blocked by walls on two sides ...

Ponz

Have you run any of this equipment yet on a trial layout? Your proposed table size is pretty good IF you don't get hooked on trains that need O72 curves. I would suggest that you use sectional track for starters so you can try out different temporary arrangements with different curve radii before building a "permanent" layout.

Just a suggestion: build a basic 4 x 8 flat table first with a temporary O42 oval. Try out your trains to get a feel for how they look and perform, and which trains need wider curves. Then you can expand and build something more permanent.

John,

AFAIK, the Pullman Heavyweights are supposed to operate on O42 curves, though they do recommend O54, maybe for appearance, I don't know. If the same is true for your engines, then I completely agree with Ace that you should consider the tighter curves. Since you appear to be committed to GarGraves, that means O42 for the outside and O32 for the inside. Here's what something like that might look like. Note it includes a 2nd level that gives you the over/under look with a 4.5% grade. So far you haven't said much, so I don't know where else to go from here.

DoubleDAZ posted:

John,

AFAIK, the Pullman Heavyweights are supposed to operate on O42 curves, though they do recommend O54, maybe for appearance, I don't know. If the same is true for your engines, then I completely agree with Ace that you should consider the tighter curves. Since you appear to be committed to GarGraves, that means O42 for the outside and O32 for the inside. Here's what something like that might look like. Note it includes a 2nd level that gives you the over/under look with a 4.5% grade. So far you haven't said much, so I don't know where else to go from here.

 

Thanks Dave.  That's a pretty fancy layout! I'm not sure what to say. 

I set up a Lionel tubular O42 curve and while the heavyweight will ride it, it doesn't look so good, as you mentioned.  I'm having a difficult time seeing the elevations on your latest image.  I can't tell - is it designed to run one or two trains?

Ponz

DoubleDAZ posted:

John,

AFAIK, the Pullman Heavyweights are supposed to operate on O42 curves, though they do recommend O54, maybe for appearance, I don't know. If the same is true for your engines, then I completely agree with Ace that you should consider the tighter curves. Since you appear to be committed to GarGraves, that means O42 for the outside and O32 for the inside. Here's what something like that might look like. Note it includes a 2nd level that gives you the over/under look with a 4.5% grade. So far you haven't said much, so I don't know where else to go from here.

 

Sent you an email

Ponz

Does a "Run-Through" switch exist?  I'm an old Penn Central Guy.  We had run through switches in Sunnyside Yard 0 Queens, NY

Ponz

Ponz posted:

Thanks Dave.  That's a pretty fancy layout! I'm not sure what to say. 

I set up a Lionel tubular O42 curve and while the heavyweight will ride it, it doesn't look so good, as you mentioned.  I'm having a difficult time seeing the elevations on your latest image.  I can't tell - is it designed to run one or two trains?

Ponz

The layout has 2 ovals that are connected by the two crossovers on the bottom. You can run 2 trains; 1 on the outer oval and 1 on the inner oval. All turnouts are O42. The outer oval uses O42 curves and the inner oval uses O32 curves, so what can run on the inner oval is limited by the O32 curves. The wye uses O42 curves and the reversing loop uses O32 curves. It rises 6" on a 4.5% grade and its elevation is represented by the white in the 2nd photo. I added a different view so you can maybe see the elevation better. There are no cut tracks, but there are 2 places where they don't quite meet. One is in the top center on the inside oval and the other is in the bottom center of the outer oval.

 

Ponz posted: 

Sent you an email

Ponz

Haven't received it and it's been 2 hours.

I was wondering if I could call you or you could call me 816 - 305 - 1918

I've been thinking. Imagine that? I'm guessing it might be better to create my hatch and then build the layout around it, since I'm walled on 2 sides. Ponz

Ok, based on our phone conversation this morning, here are some options for a hatch. The dark gray circle is 30" in diameter. The square is 24"x24". The black shows that the outer track is 18" from the edge of the circle and you can see the square is not much further. The large black circle shows what area is within a 30" reach from the small "x". As you can see, you should not have any problem reaching a derailment.

I tried turning the square 45°, but that didn't work the way I thought it would. I also took out the bottom crossovers for this version.

The other is my latest version with an expanded reversing loop. The goal with this one is to give you a longer run. If you want to save some money and don't mind running 1 train on just the outer loop, you can delete the 4 turnouts on the bottom. 

And if you want to save even more money you can take out most of the Wye like this. Don't forget though that all these have some open spots. I think I erred earlier when I said there were no cut pieces because I think there is a 5" piece in one of these.

Dave, For some reason I cannot "reply with quote". I'm digesting your drawings ans will chat in a bit. Thanks!! Ponz

By the way Dave - I',m actually going to have a total of 8'6" going from top to bottom. I hadn't taken into consideration where I'm going to set my transformers. I guess I'll devise a pedestal of some sort outside the layout. Ponz

After our conversation, I played around with O54 curves and this is the best I could come up with. The outer curves are O54 and the inner are O32. The light blue rectangles represent 4.5" separation from the walls and from other track. As you can see, I was able to get 4.5" on the straights, but not on the curves.

Now, contrast that with this version using O42 curves on the outer oval. As you can see, I was able to get the proper separation all around with the exception of the green track. However, that doesn't really matter because there will never be 2 trains passing each other on that track.

NOTE: This design is 8'x8', but you say you have 8'x8' 6". I don't know where the extra 6" comes in, so I didn't account for it. If it's on the bottom, then the inner oval plus the elevated reversing loop can all be lowered and there will be enough separation for the green track. It might also be enough for me to get the proper separation with the O54 curves, so once you tell me where to add the 6", I'll check things out again. And, to avoid confusion, I'm taking my earlier photos out of the posts. They'll still be attached, just not visible unless someone opens them.

 

 

Dave - I still am unable to reply with quote... The extra 6 inches can be top or bottom, whichever works better - you tell me so I know where to cut the hatch. From left to right I have 8 feet. From top to bottom (vertically) I can have 8'6" thanks to the preexisting build. I've yet to erect the connecting 4x8. I imagine an O42 inside the O54 would be out of the question (too close?).

PS - I hope there are others lurking and following this post so they can take advantage of your expertise. Ponz

Ponz posted:

PS - I hope there are others lurking and following this post so they can take advantage of your expertise. Ponz

Yep, I've been lurking

Dave has been Really putting some effort into this, I Hope you get his address, and send him a bottle of his "Favorite Liquid Refreshment" when you pick out a track plan. This is a perfect example of what makes this forum so great, it can be amazing the time and effort some members will give to help someone that in all likelihood, they will never meet.

Doug

No worries Doug - you read my mind. I am definetly NOT a one way individual! Hell, I'm a native NYer and NYers LOVE to tip well! Ponz

OH - lurkers? Which switch manufacturer do you recommend to use with Gargrave track? Ponz

Thanks, but far from expertise. Just offering something hoping others will chime in, but like the thread for my layout, there doesn't see to be much interest.

Hi Ponz, it is very common to use RCS, (Ross Custom Switches) with Gargraves track. The rail profile for Gargraves and RCS is very similar, as is the size of the ties. The color of the ties is a bit different I believe, but the track pins interchange well from what I have heard. Ross is reputed to be very high quality, the main reason that many use Ross switches and Gargraves track, is that Ross track is a bit more expensive than Gargraves, and on a sizeable layout the difference can be substantial.

 Ross does make track, and Gargraves does make switches I have heard(but not near the variety as Ross does), but the Ross switches and Gargraves track combo is a very popular one.

Doug

DoubleDAZ posted:

Thanks, but far from expertise. Just offering something hoping others will chime in, but like the thread for my layout, there doesn't see to be much interest.

I have been following this thread, and have found it interesting, but in this case, I am learning more than I have to offer.

Doug