17X10 Double Level Double main Line Design Help

 I am unable to use SCARM because it gave my computer a virus.

I would like a double mainline on upper level and double mainline on lower level.  Unless Someone can do one with a Triple mainline lower level and Single Mainline upper level.

I do have a 3 foot long bridge that is double wide that I would like to incorporate into the layout.

I was hoping to squeeze a 2.5% grade but not sure if I can.

Stewart (ChessieFan)

 

First off, Thank you so much for replying.  I greatly appreciate it.  I will try to answer all your questions.

 

I dont have towns or industries that I will service.  I do have a few small houses/pubs etc but I dont need a ton of space for a town.   I might have a small area in front for stations but other than that Im more a track fan than a scenery fan.  I will however incorporate a few tunnels and mountains in.  I dont have it set where I want to put them yet though.

 

I dont have a scanner at home so I can do a drawing on paper and scan it on monday.  But, if you were to envision a huge number "9" where the leg of the 9 comes straight down (this would be the yard) and the oval of the 9 is the layout, that is probably the best way I can describve it.  The cirlcular part of the 9 would be more like a flattened oval, with the top and bottom at 17 feet long, and the left and right side at about 10 feet long.  I hope that helps a little, again I will get you a rough sketch on Monday hopefully. 

 

As for the bridge, it is a custom made wood bridge that has a track bed of 9 inches wide, and is 6 inches from the bottom to the track bed of the bridge.  I tried attaching a pic of the bridge but cant get it to work for some reason.

 

As for track I have all Lionel Fastrack.  If you could work a 3rd mainline on lower level, I do have O48 curves I can use as well, I just would like 1 of the 2 lines to be 72 and the other to be 84 if possible.  If not, let me know.  You can mix and match if it works.  I just want to make sure I can run my o72 min engines on those tracks.

 

As for the height, I was figuring to have 6 inches (due to the fact that i have Lionel AutoRack cars that I would like to fit under.  The cars on the track measure about 5 1/2 inches or so, So I figured I would have to go to 6 inches clearance.

 

 

Again, thanks for your help in advance.  If you wouldnt mind, email me at goalie217@aol.com and I can send you the pic of the bridge, and possible the general sketch for the layout.

 

Thanks!

Frank

 

 

 

Frank,

 

A couple of quick questions:

 

- Will the layout be an around the room/walk in layout?

 

- What is the max width available for the yard?

 

- Will the yard be for storage or will you actively work it like a real yard?

 

 

Stewart

 

--I don't have enough to walk around.  Based on the 9, there is a wall across the whole top of the 9 that is 17 feet long, there is wall on the left side of the oval of the 9, and there is a wall down the stick of the 9.  the wall on the long part of the 9 is 18 feet.  Thats where i was thinking of having the yard.  It will pretty much be for storage.

 

My guess is between 1 1/2 and 2 feet in width for the yard.  I do have 2 sheets of 8 feet plywood already cut at about 20-21 inches in width, so I guess it would help if it was in that range.

 

Hope that helps.  Ill try to get you a mock up of the room tomorrow.

 

Thanks!

Frank

Stewart,

 

I drew up a little sketch, but when I click on the "add Attachments" below it comes up with the first box, but when I click in "seletc file(s)" there is no box that comes up.  I will have to try this tonight and see if I can get it to work on my home computer.

Get some 1/4" graph paper, make templates from the fastrack book, I think they are at 1/2" scale, just make copies of the track plans and cut out the templates with a scissors, and layout a rough plan on your available space outlined on the graph paper.  The curves are the main deal, the rest is just filling in.   If you try to do it yourself, you might actually get something done, instead of waiting for someone else to figure it out for you, which will likely never happen.  You don't need a computer, just a pencil with an eraser and some honest ambition. Good luck.

Here's a first sketch to help me envision what the layout will look like. I have some ideas for the grades and a couple of more tunnels and turns in the track, so obviously this layout will change as we discuss it more.

 

 

 

Is the extension in the correct place? Don't worry about the design of the yard yet, it can be tweaked or re-designed. You do need to decide if you want to actively work the yard or just use it as storage for trains. In this rendition, I brought the yard off of the lower mainline and through a tunnel. The yard can be moved so it comes off of the upper mainline and will be visible. The extension could be removed and the yard placed inside of the mainlines.

 

The area that is blue under the bridges represents an area for a duck under or lift out bridges in order to access the middle of the layout. This also can be moved.

 

How many trains will you run at the same time that will require O72 curves?

 

Stewart,

 

That is PERFECT!!  I love it.  Obviously i would like to try to add a few side pass thrus and stuff like that.  But this is exactly what I was trying to picture for you...  Thank you so much.  I am so pumped about this.

 

As for O72 engines, I believe I have at least 4 O72 engines, (UP Vision Line Challenger, Virginian Y3 2-8-8-2, SP Daylight GS4 Steamer, and UP Grey 4-8-4).  I also have 4 AC6000 diesel engines that are I believe O54.  

 

I am also getting 8 AutoRack Lioinel cars that are 2 feet long for Christmas!

 

So I would prefer to keep the minimum of the mainlines O72 if possible.  What other ideas do you have?  BTW, I was trying to figure out how to branch off to the yard, and you came up with a GENIUS idea.  I LOVE it.  Branching off and going under thru a tunnel, Im loving it!!  and I like the ideas of the end zones going into the tunnel and under the higher level.

 

I also could use my bridge over that area that is in blue.  What are your ideas for how to go from level to level??

 

Thanks again, I really appreciate it.  This is so great!!!  I promise to show pictures and video if i figure it out once I build!

 

Thanks,

Frank

Hey Stewart!

 

Hope you had a great holiday!  Let me know how if you need any more questions answered as far as the layout goes.  Im so curious to see what you add in.  It is exactly what I was trying to get you to think of so far. 

 

Thanks again so much for your help!!!

 

Frank

Frank,

 

Had some free time this morning, so I pulled up your layout. I squeezed in two grades and will need to add some crossovers on the upper and lower mainlines. When I get some more time, I am going to play around with the shape of the lower mainlines and am thinking of moving the yard to the upper level.

 

 

Stewart, it looks great!  I was thinking similarly for the grades.  I am guessing the red is up and the blue is down.  Just asking, do you think its bad if the down grade is steeper than 2.5% bc I dont think i have the space to do that small a grade.  might end up being 3% or so.  As for the up, LOVE the idea of going into the tunnel and coming out the back to go up the hill.  The crossover you have by the entrance to the yard, is that a 22.5 degree crossover?

 

Loving it so far man.  It looks phenomenal.  Thank you again for posting and I greatly appreciate the time you are spending on this!  I am in the process of taking down my old layout so I am preparing to start building this layout shortly after March 1st (my daughters 1st birthday).  So again, I appreciate the time you are taking to help me out.  This looks awesome so far.

 

By the way, you mentioned a yard on the upper level.  I was actually thinking of trying to do a yard on both levels where you have it currently built.  I have a lot of trains ;o)  If you can work them both in there that would be awesome, but whatever you think is best!

 

Enjoy, cant wait for your next update!!!

 

Frank

 I am guessing the red is up and the blue is down. 

Yes, that is correct.

 

Just asking, do you think its bad if the down grade is steeper than 2.5% bc I dont think i have the space to do that small a grade.

As it is currently, the down grade is 4.5%. I have some free time this afternoon, so I am going to attempt to move the grade to a different position.

 

The up grade is 3.2%.

 

 The crossover you have by the entrance to the yard, is that a 22.5 degree crossover?

The crossing is a 45%.

 

 I have a lot of trains ;o)  If you can work them both in there that would be awesome

 

I'll see what I can do here. My guess is that the lower yard will be strictly for trains that are complete and just parked. There will be little wiggle room for a hand to get to the back tracks.

 

Since there is some time before you start building, I also want to play with a triple mainline lower level and a single mainline upper level. I think this design might be more aesthetically pleasing.

Stewart,

 

Do you think a 3.2 up is too steep?  Also, is it bad to have that big a downgrade?  or is going down not that bad for a steep grade?

 

Yes, i have  time, so feel free to play around with other options.  I do have a 45 degree crossover so I am good there too.  Cant wait to see more plans!

 

Again, thank you for helping out!  I always get so pumped when I see you have posted on here.  Even if I don't start yet, I love seeing all the possibilities!

 

Thanks,

Frank

PS, as for the lower yard, that is all I plan on doing is storing fully made trains.  I can make sure that the ones I put in the back of the lower level are fully made, so I am not worried about that.  I do appreciate the insight on that though.  Thanks again!

Frank,

 

Here is an update. The track in blue is an alternate down grade, reducing it to 3.5%. I'll play around with the yards and adding crossovers between mainlines in the next day or two.

 

 

looks good to me stewart.  Thanks again!  I like the idea of extending the downgrade, 3.5 doesn't sound terrible.  Have you had any experience with grades of that percentage?  Have most engines with the legacy system been able to handle it ok?

 

again, can't wait for the next update!!!  you have me so pumped to start building!!

 

Frank,

 

A 3.5% grade will rise almost an inch and a half over 40" of track and almost 3" over 80" of track. As long as the weight your engines are pulling is not too heavy, your engines should be able to handle a 3.5% grade. Here is an example of what the grade will look like on 80" of track.

 

 

 

What track do you plan to use for your layout? Currently, I am drawing the track plan with AtlasO. If you plan to use another type, let me know.

Stewart,

 

Not sure if i mentioned it above but I only have Lionel Fastrack.  I have a LOT of o72 curves and switches and also have some o84 curves.  If need be I was going to buy more o84.

 

Hopefully this is ok as I have a lot of track and will not be looking to change that as I've spent a lot of money already on it ;o)

 

Thanks!!!!

Changed the track to Fastrack. Changed some of the layout to include crossovers and the yard on top of the yard. The climbing grade uses the O-96.

 

 

Stewart

 

So I just have to buy enough 096 for that top curve.  Everything else is 084 or 072?

 

I love it!!!  I can't wait to build!!!  after March 1 I promise to keep you posted with pictures!

 

By any chance do you have an inventory of how many of each piece I need to complete this layout?

 

It looks Phenomenal though, thank you again!!

 

Frank

Hey Stewart!  I know you spend a lot of time on here and I greatly appreciate all the time you have spent to help me out. 

 

I was wondering if Scarm tells you how many of each piece of fastrack you need to complete the layout?  If so can you give me that list?

 

Also, I have been so curious to see if you were going to plan a triple layout lower level like you said.  If you dont have time I fully understand.

As far as the O96 it appears as tho many stores dont have it in stock yet, so I guess I will have to wait for that.

I look forward to your reply!  Any other pics of this layout would be great!  Thanks again for your help!!!  Just over a month till I start bulding!

 

Thanks,

Frank

Frank,

 

Haven't forgotten about your layout, just got busy between work and family and then needed to take a breather and focus on my layout for a bit.

 

I glanced through the thread quickly (and I do mean quickly, lol) and didn't notice if you were going to run with Legacy/TMCC, DCS, Conventional or a combination. That will help me break the layout down into blocks if necessary.

 

Here is the list of track for the 2 x 2 mainline to give you an approximation of what you'll need. Disregard the call for AtlasO track and substitute with FT.

 

 

 

Have you been able to find any O-96FT yet?

While this trackplan is not "my cup of tea," let me add a few construction tips.  Since the inner ovals are all lower than the outer ovals, you will have to build this layout low enough for you and others (particularly children) to enjoy running/seeing the trains in the center.  That said, you must make the proposed bridge space a drop-down or lift-up piece of benchwork or your duck-under will actually become a crawl-under.

 

 

Second, if you decide to place the second yard above the first yard, the vertical spacing has to be more than 6 inches to allow you to place the "hand of God" inside to fix derailments or other issues.  I would suggest something more like 10-12 inch vertical spacing.  Unfortunately, that will necessarily change your current grade percentages when going up or down between the oval levels.

 

Hope this provides some food for thought.

 

Chuck

I just got the new legacy cab 2 so i will run solely legacy engines.

As for the o96, no luck at all.  Noone has it.  Ive asked local shops, ebay, and googled it and it's unavailable.  Could i use o84 there instead?

I figured the O-96 was going to be a no-go. I'll have to go back and replace the O-90 track. Give me a couple of days as I'll be busy. I've been working on the 3 mainline lower revision. Here is where I'm at so far. (I've also placed the scarm file in the attachment box below. If you save it, make sure you give it the .scarm tag) 

 

 

Not too happy with the O72 crossovers, so I substituted Ross turnouts. This configuration consists of 2 #4 right turnouts, 2 #4 left turnouts and 2 double slip turnouts. I think it makes the layout flow better. You don't have to use this. I just wanted to show you some possibilities.

 

 

Looks good stewart!  Maybe i can try a variation of the 2.  I have all o72 switches so i may just stick w that since im running fastrack.  Take your time, still have 2 weeks before breaking ground.  Altho those 2 weeks cant go fast enough!  Im getting antsy!!!

Also, i dont have scarm.  Can i still download that file to view it another way?  Maybe pdf??

I believe I have all the track necessary except the o96.  I made a few calls and some places said they MIGHT be available by the first week of March.  So we will see what happens.

 

So would Ross turnouts be able to hook up to lionel fastrack?  How expensive are those turnouts?

I cant wait to start building!  Just over a week until I can begin!!!  Thanks again to all for all the help, especially Stewart!!!  Greatly Appreciated!  If I can figure out how to get pictures on here I will!!

 

Thanks!

Frank

Stewart,

 

I am unable to get any O96 at this point so I will attempt to begin without it, and possilby use O84.  Let me ask you.  If I brought the grade going up all the way around the layout and had it come in on the bottom side (long side) it would create a longer grade which would then lower the percentage.  Do you think you can draw something up using those changes??  Thanks!

Also, for the picture you posted on Jan 4th, can you post a picture of what pieces go where?  I know you sent the inventory, but I just want to see which pieces go where.  Like which curves are 84 and which are 72.  If you can, can you post 2, one of upper level and one of lower level?  Thanks again!  So greatly appreciated!

Just a comment relative to one of Chuck's suggestions in his post above:

 

You might take a look at Jim Barrett's article illustrating a lift up bridge and hinged drop section applying to a lower level and elevated track in OGR RUN 277, page 85-88. [more detail on the concepts in Jim's Backshop DVD #11].

 

Although the article is primarily about wiring across an open walk-thru designed to access a closet, and the upper and lower levels are offset, it illustrates the use of hinged lift and drop in combination to avoid the dreaded "crawl under" [dreaded even before you reach age 40--at least in my case]. 

 

You have a great looking space to work with and are obviously anxious to get going and 'git er done'. But now is the time to consider what sort of problems you can live with in operating and especially in maintaining your layout. 

 

 

Dewey,

 

Thanks for the tip.  The thing is, I have a 2 fold "problem/concern".  First, I am running Lionel fastrack, so I dont know how a lift gate or anything of that sort would work in order to separate the track on the gate from teh track on the layout.  If they do make it, I have no idea how to use it yet.  I am still only about 2 years into the hobby (even though ive loved trains all my life).  Secondly, I am not electrically knowledgable, nor am I soldering knowledgable.  So I dont have the expertise at this point to pull soemthing like that off, at least thats how I see it.

 

I will learn eventually and maybe do another layout then.  But at this point I will deal with the "climb under" routine.

 

Also, in taking Chucks advice, I plan to make that side of the layout as "see thru" as possible, with no mountains or anything so someone standing on that side of the layout can still see whats going on on the other side of the layout.  The back side will have the tunnels and mountains.

 

Thanks though, and yes, I cant WAIT!!!  Im going out of my mind!!!  ;o)

No problem and happy railroading.

Incidentally we have the same birthday, Feb.17, although I suspect mine is a year or two earlier .

Mine is 1977.  So maybe around same time )

 

We share birthdays with Michael Jordan and Luc Robitaillle!  ;o)

2/17/32 

I think my close friend "Arthur Ritis" was born soon after.

 

 

 

 

Hi,

 

Sorry, I got busy with family and work for a bit and have been offline. I'll sit down this morning and work on the layout with the changes you requested.

 

Creating a lift, drop, or swing bridge with Lionel's Fastrack should be relatively easy. you will need to find a place in the layout where two tracks are connected with the pins or make a cut in the track yourself. Depending on how complicated you want the bridge (deadman switch, for example), the track should be easy to wire without soldering. I'll go more in depth when we get to that point.

 

 

Stewart

I started to lay out track on the floor.  I used o84 for the grade and had it come all the way around and come in the same way the down grade come in.  Pretty much the same spot. 

I also had to move the upper level crossover to the north side of the layout because my 2 track bridge only has about 9 inches across so if i had switches they wouldn't fit.

It would be great if you could make those changes.  Also if you can do it without the gate thats fine.  I dont mind going under.

If there is a way to show which pieces go where that would be awesome too.  Ill try to get a pic on here of what i have so far if i can figure out how to get pics on here.

Thanks!!!