2 rail is fun

The most maintenance I have to do is add smoke oil to the engine. Maybe it's easier to do with another rail in the middle??? 

YES it is.

Nice.

You're having way too much fun, Joe. Thanks for posting.

Engineer-Joe posted:

 

 

The most maintenance I have to do is add smoke oil to the engine. Maybe it's easier to do with another rail in the middle??? 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!  I have noooooo idea what generated this comment.

To the point, 2 rail is fun.  It is all fun in the world's greatest hobby.

2-rail is easy.  Model Railroading is Fun.

GG1 4877 posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

 

 

The most maintenance I have to do is add smoke oil to the engine. Maybe it's easier to do with another rail in the middle??? 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!  I have noooooo idea what generated this comment.

To the point, 2 rail is fun.  It is all fun in the world's greatest hobby.

Oh,.... I think you do! You smit disturber!

You remember the quote in the "What is 3RS" forum post

"Two-rail scale O looks fabulous. It really does. The dirty little secret is that the track and turnouts need MUCH MORE attention to keep things operating well. Do you want to spend a big portion of your time troubleshooting and doing track maintenance, or running trains?"

by Burlington Bill.

Then he finally added that he has an extra rail and that's the big difference!!!! WOW. I am almost speechless.

Come to think of it. I have never maintained my track! I put it down and it's run ever since.

I look forward to seeing you also run 2 rail at your house. I see you buying a nice fleet of 2 rail. Aren't you worried about maintaining it?

"Two-rail scale O looks fabulous. It really does. The dirty little secret is that the track and turnouts need MUCH MORE attention to keep things operating well. Do you want to spend a big portion of your time troubleshooting and doing track maintenance, or running trains?"

Hence my snarky response!  Most incorrect statement I've heard in years.  The two rail layouts I have visited run just fine.  Bob Heil's is amazing and it just runs with little to no maintenance other than keeping the track clean. It's so well detailed with largely scratch built and kit built cars.  The horror of it all is that it has a loop.  

Right now my 2 rail fleet is being maintained quite well in a closet sadly.  Maybe my next home will have room for a Bayhead loop so I can show it all off.  After all, the NY&LB via PRR is a loop operation.  Sunnyside on the north and Bayhead on the south.  Who says real trains didn't run in circles?  Compressing that into a reasonable layout is another question!

As I said over there on the 3RS topic.  I was 3RS for several years on my 32 X 17 layout then switched to 2 Rail O scale on the same general benchwork sub-structure 5 years ago.  Both with Atlas O track.  3RS with Legacy, TMCC and DCS.  2 Rail layout with DCC.   So I've seen both in the same environment done by the same guy (me) to the same standards and even using much of the same rolling stock by converting it.  And a lot of the exact same model engines from the same manufacturers - just 2 rail instead of 3 rail versions - mostly Sunset engines as Scott has been doing both for so long.  But a Atlas O and MTH 2 rail engines, too.   These 2 rail engines work right out of the box just like their 3 rail cousins -- same as 3 railers expect from 3 rail engines.  Just lube them, put them on the track and go (and go and go).  

Both 3RS and 2RS engines, rolling stock, track and electronics on both of my layouts  have shown virtually identical reliability and ease of maintenance.   This was a pleasant surprise and a relief to me because it was hard not to drink the coolaida being offered by the 2 rail naysayers like Burlington Bill.  So, if you're thinking of converting to 2 rail then don't listen to them.  They're pushing snake oil.  Just go ahead and do it.  I did.  I'm glad I did and I've never looked back.   But, it you choose to stay 3RS I'm pulling for you too.  Main thing it to enjoy  the hobby. Yep.

I would have to say my 3R requires more attention than my 2R...pick up rollers and switches did not always agree..sorted out now. I am all DCS ps2 and ps3. Haven't cleaned my 2R track in over a year..3R either except the switches.

Hey, you know what? I've never thought of it 'til now? They have an extra rail to clean.

Why did that take me so long????

Pardon me for getting a chuckle at someone's expense. I am a lifelong S Gauge collector and operator. 3 rail has 50% more rail to keep clean. Ease of keeping the track clean depends on the track used. My permanent layout uses .138 solid NS rail. Most of it has not required any cleaning in over a year. A few areas at route junctions need a light wiping. The original Gilbert steel track needs a cleaning about once a week with the same use.  

2 rail is more work to build. All the turnout frogs must be insulated and wired through relays so the polarity of the frog matches the direction the points are thrown. Then there are reverse loops. Modern electronics makes it easier but they still need to be insulated blocks. I used the Legacy system. Getting the legacy signal on both rails is conceptually simple using small capacitors but with many reverse loops and sidings as separate blocks it takes a lot of them in the right locations. I see no reason to avoid a 2 rail layout. 

Engineer-Joe posted:

What device and what S/W is your Grandson using in this video ?

Do you have access to all DCS-MTH features ?

(I am totally unfamiliar with 2rails technology,) 

Thanks !

Daniel,

He likes to run the trains with our old cell phone. He has his own phone as well to use. I'm running all MTH DCS equipment using the MTH app and MTH remotes to control the trains. You can use just about any android device, as well as I phones with their own app version. I prefer to use their remote most of the time for the outside RR.

I have the older MTH app that controls most, but not all features. The new pro app does it all. I haven't downloaded it yet into that phone.

2 rail is still basically the same as three rail for electrical. A big selling point for three rail is the center rail provides the positive, and the engines can travel in opposite directions without the need for switching polarity. To the engine and the controller, they don't know any difference once they are set up. I also run G scale (and HO scale in the past) so I'm used to having only 2 rails.

 I prefer the MTH system for it's simplicity in operations. I can run any engine together with any other with ease. There's no special programming or add on equipment needed. It's packed with features and upgradable for free to keep it current.

 I don't know what the S/W question means?

BTW, the app and an android device makes running engines with whistle smoke more fun to operate. When you use a remote, the screen gets changed to control the whistle smoke when turned on and you can't make control changes unless you leave the feature screen.

 With the app, you can play with the smoking whistle and still have the controls active on the same screen.

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the information. 

I thought that 2rails=DCC.  This is why I asked about which Hardware and Software (H/W, S/W) you were using.

Based on your answer, I understand that you are using a DCS-MTH system just like I do (i.e: MTH; TIU+WIU+DCS-Apps+Remote Handheld).  Exact ?

For power, what do you use ? are you using DC or AC ?  (ex: Z4000)

Thanks again.

Daniel

You don't have to use DCC just because it's 2 rail. Yes, we both use MTH's DCS system.

I have used both AC and DC. Right now I have four Lionel 180w AC bricks on my O scale.

I'm using Bridgewerks DC packs on my G scale. I used to use AC on my G scale with DCS. Both work well.

I also have a MTH Z4000 AC pack for a 3 rail loop and playing around. As well as a couple of different MTH packs for the grandsons layouts.

I use a Z1000 on my workbench for tests. It has a bridge rectifier hooked up to supply DC when needed.

This discussion of DCS with 2 Rail O Scale is really positive.  Another barrier to switching from 3 to 2 rail -- if desired -- is removed -- by using your existing DCS system -- thus no requirement to invest in a DCC system.  And with the advent of the TIU L a while back DCS is rock solid.  I gotta admit that DCS is more user friendly than my NCE DCC.  But DCC has a much wider choice of decoders and therefore bells and whistles/horns and steam and diesel prime mover sounds, etc.  But so what.  Both have their place and offer a wider variety of choices in O scale 2 rail than ever before.  IMO it's the best of times in O Scale 2 rail. 

There is a well known O scaler (2 rail) out in the San Francisco Bay Area.  He's at the absolute top end of the hobby with his engine modelling and modifications and installing DCC.  His top shelf steam engines an cars run flawlessly for hours on end during his O Scale West open house.  Thinking it must be quite a chore to prepare for the open house I asked him how often he cleaned his track and wheels on engines and rolling stock.  He looked kinda puzzled and paused and said something like oh yeah, about once a year.  Blew my mind because his trains always run to perfection.

(Turns out he does very, very lightly apply light grade machine oil to the tracks.  Says among other things it provides better contact and eliminates sparking because many  oils conduct electricity or we couldn't use it on our axles .  I asked him if I could swipe my finger down the track a couple of inches and he said okay.  My finger had a totally  black streak on it and the engines were running flawlessly.  Yep.)

My new ESU ECoS DCC system is the cats meow for control. This thing is as use friendly as it gets  and powerful to boot.

It is interesting how many folks think you need three rails for AC and Legacy/DCS.

Two rail pickup can be a problem for, say, an NW-2 switcher.  Typically only two wheels pick up the power.  Pickup becomes more reliable when you put wipers on the insulated wheels or add track sliders.

If you run weekly you need not worry about cleaning track.  I run every six months, and it takes oiled 400 sandpaper to get it going.  I use Wahl clipper oil.

Steel wheels are best, in my opinion.  Die cast and brass pick up dirt like crazy.  I know nothing about plastic wheels.

As my older brother used to say about the Model Railroader masthead - "Model Railroading is fun... and expensive too!!".

MTH DCS super easy to use. Engines use the wheels for power and communication and are very forgiving with dirty track. PS2 engines have a polarity switch and PS3 engines are non polarity sensitive. I have a simple 2 wire feed and some jumpers to my sidings(about 100 feet track total).

Middle of video is my 2 rail in action,3 rail is my outside loop for my 6 axle units which is needed because of the turning radius.

bob2 posted:

It is interesting how many folks think you need three rails for AC and Legacy/DCS.

Two rail pickup can be a problem for, say, an NW-2 switcher.  Typically only two wheels pick up the power.  Pickup becomes more reliable when you put wipers on the insulated wheels or add track sliders.

If you run weekly you need not worry about cleaning track.  I run every six months, and it takes oiled 400 sandpaper to get it going.  I use Wahl clipper oil.

Steel wheels are best, in my opinion.  Die cast and brass pick up dirt like crazy.  I know nothing about plastic wheels.

If you have plastic wheels, remove them and very carefully paint them rust color and stack them in your MOW facility. They're good for loads, but pick up/re-deposit crud on your track. Applies in both 2-rail and 3-rail contexts. My personal preference is for Intermountain single-insulated wheel sets as they work on the club's hi-rail layout and 2-rail track just fine, plus it's easier to set up electrical pickup off the axles.

I'm tempted to just go straight DC to start on my 2 rail layout when I finally start it.  I have an old DC 180W transformer / power pack that I picked up a TCA auction a long time ago for next to nothing since TCA members are traditionally mostly AC.

Jonathan, how will you wire those reverse loops????

Matt Makens posted:

Jonathan, how will you wire those reverse loops????

How do they do it in HO scale?

Matt Makens posted:

Jonathan, how will you wire those reverse loops????

For my first serious layout when I was around 16, I simply used a DPDT switch for my one wye on a 24'x16' HO layout.  Pulled the train into the wye, reversed the polarity of the rest of the layout and pulled the train into the next wye section.  It was all single track mainline otherwise. 

In all seriousness, I plan on just starting in DC .  While there are circuits for reverse loops in DC, I'll eventually go DCC. 

Question on the MTH DCS.  Will it run DCC locmotives as well as DCS.  I know the Proto-3 board is DCC compatible, but does it work the other way around?  All my 2 rail is straight DCC and I likely won't convert a lot of my MTH 3 rail over. 

GG1 4877 posted:

I'm tempted to just go straight DC to start on my 2 rail layout when I finally start it.  I have an old DC 180W transformer / power pack that I picked up a TCA auction a long time ago for next to nothing since TCA members are traditionally mostly AC.

The secret hidden advantage of being a 2-railer in the TCA.  Very little competition and generally lower prices since most members have no interest in 2-rail.  

Reverse loops in 2 rail AC and with Legacy or DCS are really simple. Electrically isolate the reverse loop section of track and power it through a PSX-AR-AC Auto Reverser Board and just run the trains as normal. Does not matter how many reverse loops there are, just use one Board per reverse loop. My layout has 4. Similar with DCC , but the part number for the Board is different. 

Straight DC is a PITA because the polarity determines engine direction so just instantaneously flipping the power connections to the block the engine is occupying will not work. The polarity of the block the engine is about to enter must be reversed. Ok if there is only one train running, not so good if there are already engines running in that block. 

GG1 4877 posted:

I'm tempted to just go straight DC to start on my 2 rail layout when I finally start it.  I have an old DC 180W transformer / power pack that I picked up a TCA auction a long time ago for next to nothing since TCA members are traditionally mostly AC.

No reason at all not to do that - does sort of depend on size and scope of the layout and all, but folks did it for decades and some stlll do ( )....

Johnathan, ref. that old DC transformer.  Some of those old transformers offer no protection and are downright dangerous for your equipment and for you too.  Does it have a reliable circuit breaker?  If not you'll need to add a modern one.  Those things will melt stuff.

 If you go to DCC you will have a good selection of modern microprocessor controlled circuit breakers that sense a short in a few hundred milliseconds and save your engines. They are vastly superior to the old heat activated mechanical circuit breakers.  Much faster acting and more reliable.  

AND with DCC you can have auto frog polarity with frog juicers and reverse loop/turnable polarity controllers like the PSX-AR.  

Having said all that -- I have a limited capability to DC loop run on my layout for visiting engines because a lot of the 2 rail guys I know in these parts are still DC -- most without layouts -- just nice older DC engines.  So, we can all enjoy their engines on my layout.  I have that DC transformer track power low tech fused to fail quickly in the case of a short so as to save the DC engines.  And a stack of fuses as these guys blow a lot of them with those beautiful old engines that nevertheless need servicing.  

Also, the DC capability serves the valuable purpose of checking out my own recently acquired brass DC engines to make sure they run well mechanically on tangent and curved track before I install DCC.  Then if they run erratic after installing DCC I know I just need to tune the DCC  performance.  (I have an 8 ft test track too for all this).

But, DC or DCC.  Follow your bliss and just do it.  Man, I'm glad I did.  Never looked back.  This is fun!!!

Come on guys. Everyone knows that 2 rail isn't fun. Shhh. Don't tell the people in other scales. They all believe that only Marklin HO people are fun. 

GG1 4877 posted:

Matt Makens posted:

Jonathan, how will you wire those reverse loops????

For my first serious layout when I was around 16, I simply used a DPDT switch for my one wye on a 24'x16' HO layout.  Pulled the train into the wye, reversed the polarity of the rest of the layout and pulled the train into the next wye section.  It was all single track mainline otherwise. 

In all seriousness, I plan on just starting in DC .  While there are circuits for reverse loops in DC, I'll eventually go DCC. 

Question on the MTH DCS.  Will it run DCC locmotives as well as DCS.  I know the Proto-3 board is DCC compatible, but does it work the other way around?  All my 2 rail is straight DCC and I likely won't convert a lot of my MTH 3 rail over. 

 

No.

I run straight DC, with Variacs, big capacitors, meters, and circuit protectors on input and output.  And a big red light to remind me to turn it off.

I realize that no self-respecting model railroader can live without a reversing loop. I envy those with that kind of space - a 14 foot square chunk of basement just to turn a train?  A dogbone is my dream layout - four tracks.  Takes 14 x 30'.  No desire at all to reverse train direction.  

Right now it is four ovals.  Still takes a lot of room.

I am going battery power in 2020.  Still won't need a reversing loop.

fredswain posted:

Come on guys. Everyone knows that 2 rail isn't fun. Shhh. Don't tell the people in other scales. 

willygee posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

Matt Makens posted:

Jonathan, how will you wire those reverse loops????

For my first serious layout when I was around 16, I simply used a DPDT switch for my one wye on a 24'x16' HO layout.  Pulled the train into the wye, reversed the polarity of the rest of the layout and pulled the train into the next wye section.  It was all single track mainline otherwise. 

In all seriousness, I plan on just starting in DC .  While there are circuits for reverse loops in DC, I'll eventually go DCC. 

Question on the MTH DCS.  Will it run DCC locmotives as well as DCS.  I know the Proto-3 board is DCC compatible, but does it work the other way around?  All my 2 rail is straight DCC and I likely won't convert a lot of my MTH 3 rail over. 

 

No.

Thanks for the info.  I didn't think so, but wasn't sure.

Here is the transformer I picked up that I referred to earlier.  It's newer than I thought and has the original receipt with it dated 1997.  Any thoughts or experience with this one?

I have 2 rail and chose to have loops/wyes on all three of my layouts over the decades.  Either use the  switch contacts for low tech DC polarity reversal or use a relay activated by the wye switch machine activator for DCC....or get an auto reverse for $55 for DCC.  How many  HO layout are using loops and wyes??  Other than space, they are pretty simple to engineer.

I had 3 rail at one time.  Tolerences are certainly larger with the big rails and wheel flanges but Track maintenance for two rail is pretty minimal as long as you aren't using brass rail.  Dust on the layout is a bigger maint issue for me.  

AmFlyer posted:

Reverse loops in 2 rail AC and with Legacy or DCS are really simple. Electrically isolate the reverse loop section of track and power it through a PSX-AR-AC Auto Reverser Board and just run the trains as normal. Does not matter how many reverse loops there are, just use one Board per reverse loop. My layout has 4. Similar with DCC , but the part number for the Board is different. 

Straight DC is a PITA because the polarity determines engine direction so just instantaneously flipping the power connections to the block the engine is occupying will not work. The polarity of the block the engine is about to enter must be reversed. Ok if there is only one train running, not so good if there are already engines running in that block. 

I am not clear about the advantages/disadvantages of choosing AC or DC for 2 Rails with DCS. 

Reading the above, it seems that the AC choice would makes the reverse loop "problem" easier to address.

Could you clarify this or provide a reference that clarify this ?

Any other reason to chose AC vs DC for 2 Rails (with DCS) is welcome !

Thanks !

Question for you 2 rail DCS guys.  How do you power route your switch frogs using DC power and DCS command?   For example on my 2 rail DCC layout I use TAM Valley Frog Juicers on my isolated, DCC ready frogs.  This works with DCC but not plain old DC.  Maybe Frog Juicers work with DCS?  Maybe you leave your frogs unpowered?  What?