@Rusty Traque posted:That's because S Scalers don't have the variety available that the 3RS and 2RS folks have.
Rusty
Oh yeah, I get that. I guess my point was that in O, the hot topic is about the Geep 9; in S, it's the MTH F7. Both early- ish diesels. Hence, my comment about "classics"...
Mark in Oregon
I'm surprised no one suggested any Amtrak paint schemes. I've yet to see anybody do a scale prototypical model of them in O scale, or at least 3-rail.
@GG1 4877 posted:3 rail offerings often have all the hardware needed to convert to a Kadee coupler including the bracket, screws, and the couplers. Other than a few small screws that are occasionally fairly tight, it is an easy change from 3 rail to Kadee couplers. The ones I have done take about 15 minutes. In this run though, all mine are 2 rail.
L.O.L. speaking of "tight" was I the only one that had a really difficult time pulling out the foam cradle from the cardboard box? I swear that O.E.M. box was wrapped around its inner foam cradle tighter than a frog's AR$@! Talk about a "battle royal" to get out the foam without damaging the box!
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Umm. Bruck, was that battery in the unit or did you personally add it in?
Came with the battery.
Bruk.
For the upcoming SD40-2s (and future 3rd Rail offerings), it might be a good idea to not install a battery at the factory)
Would anyone have a pic of the Conrail GP?
Yes Mr. horseshoecurve, I wondered if anyone ripped their box in (Christmas morning-like) anticipation of the Treasure inside. I now have difinitive proof I have learned something in my adult years. Thanks push-pops!
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:L.O.L. speaking of "tight" was I the only one that had a really difficult time pulling out the foam cradle from the cardboard box? I swear that O.E.M. box was wrapped around its inner foam cradle tighter than a frog's AR$@! Talk about a "battle royal" to get out the foam without damaging the box!
The struggle was real.
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:L.O.L. speaking of "tight" was I the only one that had a really difficult time pulling out the foam cradle from the cardboard box? I swear that O.E.M. box was wrapped around its inner foam cradle tighter than a frog's AR$@! Talk about a "battle royal" to get out the foam without damaging the box!
Have you tried upside-down on a padded surface such as a couch or bed?
@Lyle A posted:N&W GP9s
WOW! Those are great looking geeps.
@rplst8 posted:Interesting road number. 😈😯😂
💀💀! Wish I had that one. Inverted geep 9? Kinda.
@GG1 4877 posted:However, the phase III variation was a no go from the start for the first run because the factory gave so much push back on the the number of variations on this particular model at the price point they were sold at.
Jonathan,
Just how sure are you that those PH3's were a no go for this run?
Apparently my memory is not as it should be on work that was done in late 2019.
However are we really making it personal now? That's classy.
@GG1 4877 posted:Apparently my memory is not as it should be on work that was done in late 2019.
However are we really making it personal now? That's classy.
Jonathan, I think you are reading something into what he said. He asked you how sure you were, to which you provided a direct answer. How does that make it personal or merit your "That's classy" response? If anything I think you are the one that is making it personal from my 3rd party view.
Also fwiw... If you are going to take on the responsibility of a Product Manager on a product that is advertised to offer road specific details and those details are incorrect then you should expect questions like this IMHO.
I am beginning to think we’d all be better friends if these conversations were had in person, like at a train show, rather than on the internet. Being a John myself I can empathize with both the Jonathons 
While in most cases people do not intend for these comments to be personal attacks, they certainly come off that way at times.
Imagine having just spent an incredible amount of time helping advise on a massive production run and then getting run thru the cheese grater by a bunch of keyboard warriors the moment these things get delivered. There will always be mistakes on these and every other model, some worse than others. It does seem that was amplified by the complexity of this production which is understandable given all that was going on while it was happening and it’s size.
However, while Jonathon and Scott and everyone else involved were working their tails off to bring you all the very best... MTH was closing its doors, Atlas is still trying to make product from 5 years ago, and Lionel is too busy with fantasy paint schemes to make anything half accurate. If you aren’t happy with your 3rd rail models, the customer service remains first class. BUT If you chase off the people involved in the only worthwhile show in town then you will be left with nothing. You won’t even have a fence to sit on anymore.
I know people often intend to be helpful with their criticism but it does not always come off that way over an Internet forum.
@GG1 4877 posted:Apparently my memory is not as it should be on work that was done in late 2019.
However are we really making it personal now? That's classy.
Jonathan,
Well, I'm still the same classy guy I was when we Emailed about me buying late run E7's and PA's. No, my intention was not to make it personal, it was a literal question - I'm just truly surprised there is this much confusion on something as basic as which versions actually got produced.
I considered you to be an expert, back in 2019 when you Emailed me telling me I could not get a Ph3 NKP GP9 because only Ph2 was getting produced and also 2 days ago when you said they were a no go, but apparently here they are.
Perhaps that was blessing in disguise as I would have an additional 3 grand in NKP GP's all sitting here with missing handrail stanchions.
That is a fair statement. I will retract my comment. I will also exit this conversation as I have lost my ability to he objective at the moment. My apologies. I meant no disrepect towards anyone.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:You actually can. You can involve yourself in the design process, especially if you have a unique skill to bring to the table; such as expertise on paint tones.
I seem to recall this same paint color discussion every time a new product comes out...
The actual color tone as people perceive it, view it, and remember it is subjective. It changes over the years, looks different in different photos and yes can even look different on drift cards compared to the brand new painted prototype. It can even look different on 2 different engines painted with the same paint if the primer was applied in different conditions. There are endless factors which effect paint color.
That’s only one part of the conversation. The next is lighting. I believe you have read this before as excellently explained by Rusty Tarque.
Reflect back on everything that has happened in our world since these models were announced. Consider the size of the company and the tireless efforts by many (in o some cases through countless hours of unpaid research or contribution of information). Consider the incredible scale of what was accomplished in this production run. Scott bends over backwards to bring us the very best AND he makes it right when people are unhappy regardless of the merit of their grievance.
It really comes down to, you either like the color tones of the models you have personally purchased and are holding in your hands or you don’t. Same for all other aspects of the model. If you don’t like it, Scott goes way out of his way to make sure your are satisfied in the form of a full refund and I believe even covers the return shipping (I don’t know for absolute certain as I have never returned a model to 3rd rail).
Then someone else who thought they would never see such a uniquely detailed model and missed out on the reservation will have the lucky chance to purchase it. However, it really is a shame when people who have not purchased it or been involved in the design process whatsoever, ruin that excitement by doing something like endlessly trolling subjective paint tones.
This whole thing is supposed to be fun, exciting, and for many a brief escape from the troubles of the world. Don’t be the guy that ruins that excitement for potential new customers or those of us who are longtime loyal customers of GGD/3rd rail. I’ve got a lot of one off things I would love to see Scott make someday as many of his customers do. Please don’t get in the way of that. If it’s not good enough for you, then build it and paint it yourself.
I do not subscribe to this apologist mentality. Nobody is personally attacking Scott or the folks that helped research this project at a personal level. As a company building a product for customers that pay money to get a product that arrives as it was marketed though....That is fair game IMHO.
As a "longtime loyal customer of GGD/3rd Rail" myself this is my opinion - If you advertise a product as having road specific details, but cancel versions, make mistakes on common details, mix details between phases, paint black where it shouldn't be, and have customers subjectively questioning the color tones I think you should be expected to answer those questions. I understand that there are reasons, mistakes, and oversights that happen. Scott has always stood behind his products and I expect he will this time as well, but the idea that we should all just keep our mouths shut and be thankful that products are still being made is silly.
At one time I wanted 8 GP7s and GP9s. Due to production changes/cancellations and other issues that I won't go into here I ended up with just 2 GP7s in Erie. They are on their way to me now and without even seeing them yet it seems like they are going to be missing a handrail stanchion at the very least. Some people suggest that this is being too picky. I disagree. If I buy Lionel or American Models I know I am getting a generic model. If I buy an Athearn/Rapido/Scale Trains HO model I know I am getting Road and Road-number specific details. I remember when Shane was at Athearn they had an issue where a molded in door on the hood of a Genesis GP model was off by 6" inches and the HO community went nuts. Athearn gave refunds and made new hoods to satisfy customers if memory serves me. I have no doubt Scott will take care of his customers, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to point out issues real or perceived just because it may affect people's ability to buy more toys in the future.
The real danger of running people off isn't what people think or say about a product as much as not delivering what was marketed IMHO. Getting details correct is under your control much more so than how people will receive your product. if you get things correct people will complain less, trust more, and buy more. The inverse is also true though.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:However, while Jonathon and Scott and everyone else involved were working their tails off to bring you all the very best... MTH was closing its doors, Atlas is still trying to make product from 5 years ago, and Lionel is too busy with fantasy paint schemes to make anything half accurate. If you aren’t happy with your 3rd rail models, the customer service remains first class. BUT If you chase off the people involved in the only worthwhile show in town then you will be left with nothing. You won’t even have a fence to sit on anymore.
I know people often intend to be helpful with their criticism but it does not always come off that way over an Internet forum.
I could not care less what is going on at Lionel, MTH or Atlas as I stopped buying their stuff almost 5 years ago when I switched to 2R. Where did my $$$ go - yeah to Sunset. So I have no clue as to what you mean with " I won't have a fence to sit on anymore " Also, please see what I posted earlier:
I'll leave you with this: I still have quite a bit on preorder with Scott and I truly appreciate what you guys do for us in O scale - literally everything I have in B&O is from Sunset.
While I am not trying to chase anyone off, I'm also not afraid to call a spade a spade on these issues. All I wanted was to confirm the PH3's actually got tooled up from the guy who did the design matrix for the project. Even with a missing handrail stanchion I was looking to see if the NKP's versions I like could get a shot in a 2nd run.
@jonnyspeed posted:I do not subscribe to this apologist mentality. Nobody is personally attacking Scott or the folks that helped research this project at a personal level. As a company building a product for customers that pay money to get a product that arrives as it was marketed though....That is fair game IMHO.
As a "longtime loyal customer of GGD/3rd Rail" myself this is my opinion - If you advertise a product as having road specific details, but cancel versions, make mistakes on common details, mix details between phases, paint black where it shouldn't be, and have customers subjectively questioning the color tones I think you should be expected to answer those questions. I understand that there are reasons, mistakes, and oversights that happen. Scott has always stood behind his products and I expect he will this time as well, but the idea that we should all just keep our mouths shut and be thankful that products are still being made is silly.
At one time I wanted 8 GP7s and GP9s. Due to production changes/cancellations and other issues that I won't go into here I ended up with just 2 GP7s in Erie. They are on their way to me now and without even seeing them yet it seems like they are going to be missing a handrail stanchion at the very least. Some people suggest that this is being too picky. I disagree. If I buy Lionel or American Models I know I am getting a generic model. If I buy an Athearn/Rapido/Scale Trains HO model I know I am getting Road and Road-number specific details. I remember when Shane was at Athearn they had an issue where a molded in door on the hood of a Genesis GP model was off by 6" inches and the HO community went nuts. Athearn gave refunds and made new hoods to satisfy customers if memory serves me. I have no doubt Scott will take care of his customers, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to point out issues real or perceived just because it may affect your ability to buy more toys in the future.
I have never been against criticism and I am not saying that those reasons make it ok for errors. I’m just saying watch how you deliver it and consider that even if it is well intended on your end, others may not take it that way especially on the internet. If those others are the folks at/with 3rd rail, eventually they will get sick of it when the effort is no longer worth the headache and we won’t have the option to order anything at all or at a minimum, there will be less of a chance of such unique offerings in the future.
In the meantime, if you order something that you are not happy with, it is fully refunded and taken care of and you are back to where you started before ordering it.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:I have never been against criticism and I am not saying that those reasons make it ok for errors. I’m just saying watch how you deliver it and consider that even if it is well intended on your end, others may not take it that way especially on the internet. If those others are the folks at/with 3rd rail, eventually they will get sick of it when the effort is no longer worth the headache and we won’t have the option to order anything at all or at a minimum, there will be less of a chance of such unique offerings in the future.
In the meantime, if you order something that you are not happy with, it is fully refunded and taken care of and you are back to where you started before ordering it.
I understand your point of view, I just respectfully disagree. What will cause 3rd Rail or any company to exit their market is economic in nature. I think you are implying way too much emotion involved in the decision making process here. I don't think you give Scott enough credit. He isn't going to run off because his feelings are hurt. Not selling models is what will drive any mfg. out of their market however. Not delivering on expectations and eroding trust from your customer base is the real risk in a market like this. Customers are asked to commit to pre-orders sight-unseen years in advance with only the trust that the company will get it right to go on. If things don't arrive as expected or advertised, this is what happens. It's not personal, it business...
I have no doubt that Scott will offer refunds and take care of customers, but those people wanted and waited for trains - not refunds. How many will be reconsidering their pre-orders now? I have no idea, but the root issue here is that mistakes were made... not that people are publicly discussing them and scaring would-be buyers off.
Just my opinion...
@jonnyspeed posted:I understand your point of view, I just respectfully disagree. What will cause 3rd Rail or any company to exit their market is economic in nature. I think you are implying way too much emotion involved in the decision making process here. I don't think you give Scott enough credit. He isn't going to run off because his feelings are hurt. Not selling models is what will drive any mfg. out of their market however. Not delivering on expectations and eroding trust from your customer base is the real risk in a market like this. Customers are asked to commit to pre-orders sight-unseen years in advance with only the trust that the company will get it right to go on. If things don't arrive as expected or advertised, this is what happens. It's not personal, it business...
I have no doubt that Scott will offer refunds and take care of customers, but those people wanted and waited for trains - not refunds. How many will be reconsidering their pre-orders now? I have no idea, but the root issue here is that mistakes were made... not that people are publicly discussing them and scaring would-be buyers off.
Just my opinion...
I understand your position and also respectfully disagree. Emotion is very much a part of it for those who make the models just as much as it is for those who pre order them.
If it was purely a financial/numbers thing, those who got their refund would be satisfied with having not lost out once they sent their model back and received their refund. Scott does not require a deposit, so customers money is never tied up for a large amount of time in the case of a refund. However, as you’ve said, customers have waited a long time for these since preordering (without any financial commitment). So what have they then lost out on? The excitement and anticipation (emotion) of their trains showing up as they have imagined them to look.
It’s unreasonable to think that Scott and others so heavily involved in designing and delivering these do not also have the same excitement and anticipation (emotion) in delivering what they have set out to.
My point is that even if everyone is financially taken care of, it is in-fact possible that a manufacturer would exit the market place if the headaches from production errors got to be to be too great. Just as it is possible that prospective or past customers would avoid future ordering even if they never lost out financially from a messed up order.
Well I choose to go high !!! 🙂🙃😜🤗 Here are two beauties I received yesterday and got to unbox today. I’m VERY PLEASED with these models !!!!!!!!!!!
Hi Folks,
I haven't had a chance to read all the posts above because there are so many emails coming, and it's the weekend. Many of the emails are praises, and few are wanting to return their models.
Yes, we make mistakes. Yes, we accept models back for refund. Just email me you desire.
I'll tell you a little story of how I usually check all these paint schemes and roads.
I go to China, and after a few days of getting my bearings, they have a desk for me at their office in the small assembly factory. They present me painted samples of shells, which I hold, and look at them, and google pictures of prototypes, and review our data for the road name. I use my years of experience of seeing good and bad color matches, and I instruct the factory make changes and corrections on the spot. We have a color library that we refer to when there is a question of accuracy. Some times it take 4 trips to the painter (downstairs) to get the color spot on. I usually am there through the most critical parts of production to catch not only their errors, but ours.
Now, after being stuck here, I get digital photos of color matching with samples chips. I get engine by engine views of each side, front and back and sometimes the tops of the finished models. It's too late to correct color variations as they tell me, "Everything is already painted". It's too late to correct detailing errors, "Everything is already assembled". When I see pictures of these models they are basically finished.
Occasionally, I spot a glaring error from our design and they will go back and fix them. But now, being stuck at home in the US, it's not possible to do any of that "in person review".
So I offer you my heartfelt apology, "I AM PERSONALLY SORRY FOR THE ERRORS AND MISTAKES IN THESE MODELS". It was the best we could do with the situation at hand. For those of you that cannot accept what you have received, email me and we will discuss returns, repairs or exchanges per our Warranty Policy. There is no point to jousting with each other about how much you know or how much you should accept. If you are disappointed and want to return your model (s), do so.
In the future, we will focus harder on each road variation of a project and post more information for customers to review and discuss with us. My goal is and always has been to please you, our customer. Without you, there is no business.
First class all the way Mr. Scott Mann. Your a rare breed in this hobby, in more ways than one.
Thank you Scott.
You are a stand up guy, and a credit to the hobby.
I have purchased products from just about everyone the last few years and you are consistently at the top of the list in terms of product, service, and quality.
My GPs will be waiting for me when I return home next week and it is just like Christmas for me. I know they will be great additions to my collection.
Jerry
Thank you Scott for an explanation. Your idea of sharing more information before the models are delivered is spot on IMO.
I will remain a loyal customer because you always make things right.
Leon
I’m sure not going to stop ordering and buying your models. No way! You are the miracle worker! I think we are blessed you are here with us Scott. Keep up the great work.
Thanks Scott for doing these models. My CGW is a beautiful model and runs perfect. Maybe you could post any returns as stock on hand. There are plenty of us out here that don't mind color variations. Looking at color books of roads, there are many differences due to many factors. Again, thanks so much. I am headed for the weathering powder booth soon!
@SANTIAGOP23 posted:Hate to say it, but I smell trouble
If there’s a problem, just email Scott. Don’t spoil my fun/pleasure !!!!
Your welcome... Just doing what I would expect others to do for me.
@BobbyD posted:Have you tried upside-down on a padded surface such as a couch or bed?
Yes! Even opened up the other flap and tried to push! It wasn't easy without a hydraulic ram NOT to rip the box!
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Yes! Even opened up the other flap and tried to push! It wasn't easy without a hydraulic ram NOT to rip the box!
WOW! Yep, some are really a tight fit. I feel sorry for the factory folks having to package these products without ripping the boxes.
Maybe they assembled the boxes around the inner one. That might account for the tightness.
Has anyone posted a video yet? 
@0-Gauge CJ posted:Has anyone posted a video yet?
All this hemming and hawwing over paint ,grab irons, fans and getting it out of the box.
No one knows if they even run ....
@0-Gauge CJ posted:Has anyone posted a video yet?
Just my opinion but, I would much rather see lots of good quality close-up photos instead of videos. With videos, the model moves past a hand-held camera so fast, the details get lost.
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