A fitst space concept

@Sarah posted:

 

 

Dear O-folks, 

After many many sheets of paper full of spaghetti I now made a serious step into the right direction by getting a basic space study on my Union Pacific Cheyenne layout plans. Fortunately I have an empty barn (48x48) around the corner that, after careful preparation, can be filled with flex track and the odour of smoke fluid. 

 

Here is a map of the area and you can see that this is truly a division point on a transcontinental railroad. 

 

 

Here's my approach to model all the basic functions and locations without too much of a compromise in the feel of the real thing. That means people must crawl on all fours under the benchwork?

 

 

Hopefully not! I plan to dedicate some space under the layout room for a walk-under . One of the main feature is a fully operational Colorado & Southern that interchanges some cars with the UP but in all other aspects is an independent layout "in" a layout. The iconic C&S overpass had to be done as a distinctive land mark. All the aisles are lined out in black and most of them are connected with stairs to solve the dilemma that lies within the nature of the design approach. 

 

 

The C&S overpass scene. The only backdrops will be placed on the outer walls to give the sense of a wide space. 

 

 

Only a portion of the roundhouse is being modelled to get people close to the action and to enable a reasonable reach in. I plan for 3 passenger tracks in front of the classy Cheyenne Depot with a car lenght of 12 plus engine. The freight yard serves also the purpose of a sceniced staging yard with a return loop that helps re-staging. Therefore it might become divided by double slip switches into two parts, a feature that was in place in the 1940's!

 

 

I think I have now the raw concept for what's practical in terms of aisle width and curvature. The yard is U- shaped, surrounding the installation and leading into a turn back curve. The C&S outlines the room and overlaps the Union Pacific with the iconic C&S overpass.

 

There's still space to be filled but I think I can now slowly start with the renovation of the building because the hard facts of the physical function of the concept has been worked out. 

 

I am totally aware of the oddity of my approach. This is a once in a lifetime project and so I can dedicate all the specs of the building to my track plan. I know that it is a bit much but I really think it will work out. Thanks for your support!

Sarah

WOW. I mean WOW.  What a great undertaking and concept.  Not only a once in a lifetime project but probably a lifetime of building and fun.  It looks and sounds great.  I am in no position to give any advice, as I am working on a 21 x 8, eventually 21 x 16 and am still laying and pulling up track as I play and refine.  If you can pull I off I like the stairs idea though you will lose visual contact with the running train which could allow for some real life accident repairs.  Go for it and good luck.

Bill

Nothing like thinking BIG!  Impressive!

YES! Fresh ideas, new approach thinking and all options available. This is absolutely exciting to be able to follow along. Thank you Sarah.

Steve

Nice if you have the height. But with 48 square feet of space; larger than most houses why go to that trouble? 

Unless I'm missing something! do you have a tractor or other farm equipment taking up most of the space? You can do this multilevel in a more linear layout approach design that uses a good part or all of the 48 feet!

@AlanRail posted:

Nice if you have the height. But with 48 square feet of space; larger than most houses why go to that trouble? 

Unless I'm missing something! do you have a tractor or other farm equipment taking up most of the space? You can do this multilevel in a more linear layout approach design that uses a good part or all of the 48 feet!

A good question! I banned the farm equipment from the barn so I have it all for myself. I just did not plan ahead more concrete as in those areas where it is really getting tight. My thinking is to leave it open until I earn more experience. There are ideas like modelling some stretch of downtown Cheyenne where the C&S had some tracks running in the streets, leading to their passenger Depot and serving several industries.

I know exactly what you mean with the more linear design. I could in theory place all the elements of desire in a linear fashion but that would not make much sense operation wise. O scale is too big regarding reach-in and maintenance requirements so I have to plan for the future. By installing a walk under I can provide a feeling similar to the real location where you have the station in behind you when you face the roundhouse. I try to recreate a feel of big machinery all around you. 

Sarah

It will be interesting to watch this railroad develop. Keep us in the loop.

Sarah, Wow!  Most impressive plan. I know you will construct an excellent layout. This is exciting and I am looking forward to your updates.

Tom

FANTASTIC  LOVE IT  !!!!!!

Sarah, I always heard Cheyenne is a major hub!  I think your approach makes sense.  Forum Member Neal Shorr did something similar with his custom built train room, by building a pit where everyone steps down enough steps to walk under the layout then step back up.  His layout goes around the walls in a very large room.  You look fairly young, but a project of this scope will take years.  If not you loving the steps down and up, I know visitors will lover it.  I'm looking forward to seeing what you make of this as time goes on!! 

Holy Christmas!! 

What a real interesting concept and undertaking indeed! 

This will take years to complete, but once done it will become a legendary layout that folks would flock to see.

Wishing you much luck, time, energy and needed funding to pull this off. 

I can't wait to see your updates as the project progresses.

You are truly one in a million, blessed with God given talent and ingenuity. 

Truly an intriguing and grand concept, and it is great to see the thought that is going into this project. I also can see this as a fine series of articles, over time, for the magazine. If you are at all interested in seeing that happen, please feel free to get in touch with me. And, of course, please keep us informed here in the forum.

Holy Smoke Stacks!  Huge props to you dreaming big and planning accordingly.   I don't quite understand what you are doing with the walk under areas, but I do love seeing original ideas!  

I am sure you have already given finishing of the building to your purpose a great deal of thought. Since you are working with a stand alone building of this size, I would recommend adding a restroom somewhere,  along with the usual vac recommendations. 

Thanks for sharing your plans, I look forward to watching this come to life.

Is the farm equipment still protected from the elements, e.i. tarps?  I'm concerned that John Deere might freeze his pistons off when cold weather sets in.  You do own a JD, right?  

I assume you will roster several Big Boys?  Have you decided how many and which numbers they will wear?   

A great project.   Trainitis, Covid, and now Tractor Fever, is there no end in sight?  I'd love to have the space for a layout and a Johnny Popper.

@Sarah posted:

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I know exactly what you mean with the more linear design. I could in theory place all the elements of desire in a linear fashion but that would not make much sense operation wise. O scale is too big regarding reach-in and maintenance requirements so I have to plan for the future. By installing a walk under I can provide a feeling similar to the real location where you have the station in behind you when you face the roundhouse. I try to recreate a feel of big machinery all around you. 

Sarah

I think yours is exactly the right approach.  Having done an under the layout storage yard in a previous layout, I can tell you they are nothing but a serious PITA.  

And the walk under is a terrific idea.  Neal Schorr (PRRMiddleDivision) has one.  It works perfectly, avoiding duck-unders and lift outs.

I am helping a friend design a 40' x 40' layout.  I am looking forward to your progress and experience.

Best of luck!

George

Hi Sarah,

You might be interested in the following:

John Gray's HO UP at Cheyenne in the 1950's in 46' by 26' in MRR. I don't know which issue.  Allen Keller did a video about it. Again, I don't know the number of the video. Google to the rescue.

The Detroit club which purchased an old movie theater and had to build a level floor and added pathways under that floor. In MRR.

A club in NJ which built a RR in stages in adjacent buildings with passageways underneath. In MRR somewhere.

Finally, my thoughts:  I would suggest that you plan the whole RR, at least the mains and edges of the benchwork, before any construction.  Building and then designing can cause problems if the latest parts would work better if an area had X more inches here or there but there is the original construction in place.  Also, I really don't see the need to build catacombs under the RR.  Crawling under the RR is no fun.  I can attest to that but if you wire properly then the maintenance is minimal. If the RR is set at an appropriate height, wiring the RR and crawling under to get to an "operating aisle" is not a problem.

I wish you the best.

Ed

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Is the farm equipment still protected from the elements, e.i. tarps?  I'm concerned that John Deere might freeze his pistons off when cold weather sets in.  You do own a JD, right?  

I assume you will roster several Big Boys?  Have you decided how many and which numbers they will wear?   

Haha, no JD. This is a Lindner 1700, made in Austria and she's doing well and not outside in the rain!

4000's? Yes, I do have too many of them. In the early years of operation they only came into Cheyenne for class repairs and scheduled shopping. So I'll park them in the machine shops :-) One of them is the 4002 but if it will ever be completed is written in the stars. I hope George Kohs manages to complete the project. I personally think the 4000's are very nice additions to the layout to really underline the extreme size and development of late steam. To me, the Nines are more exciting but that's the big plus modelling UP – there are soooo many locomotive classes!

@Ed Kelly posted:

Hi Sarah,

You might be interested in the following:

John Gray's HO UP at Cheyenne in the 1950's in 46' by 26' in MRR. I don't know which issue.  Allen Keller did a video about it. Again, I don't know the number of the video. Google to the rescue.

The Detroit club which purchased an old movie theater and had to build a level floor and added pathways under that floor. In MRR.

A club in NJ which built a RR in stages in adjacent buildings with passageways underneath. In MRR somewhere.

Finally, my thoughts:  I would suggest that you plan the whole RR, at least the mains and edges of the benchwork, before any construction.  Building and then designing can cause problems if the latest parts would work better if an area had X more inches here or there but there is the original construction in place.  Also, I really don't see the need to build catacombs under the RR.  Crawling under the RR is no fun.  I can attest to that but if you wire properly then the maintenance is minimal. If the RR is set at an appropriate height, wiring the RR and crawling under to get to an "operating aisle" is not a problem.

I wish you the best.

Ed

 

Thanks Ed, your thoughts are really appreciated!

Sarah

@Tom Tee posted:

Hi Sarah,  I did a walk under on for my last layout.  It involved four 7" risers down and a 90 degree turn, 40" travel under layout then four 7" risers back up. 

One unique aspect of the project is that the steps only had to be 16" wide because there is no need to provide clearance for the torso.

Additionally, make sure there is a provision to keep one from falling into the void.  It was only 28" but I caught a sharp edge on the way down.

At the new location I have a one level walking surface with a large around-the-wall layout and four major peninsulas.  The step down and step up on the previous layout got real old real fast. 

Now, converting over to hand held walk around battery R/C  I am actively involved and appreciate the lack of steps.

 

Thanks for that hint! I really must make sure nobody falls by accident!

@Allan Miller posted:

Truly an intriguing and grand concept, and it is great to see the thought that is going into this project. I also can see this as a fine series of articles, over time, for the magazine. If you are at all interested in seeing that happen, please feel free to get in touch with me. And, of course, please keep us informed here in the forum.

That would be an honour, Sir. I plan to take high quality photos of the process. We plan to start this winter with the renovation!

Sarah

Sarah, I'll bet nobody every accused you of not thinking big!  That will be a layout that you can charge admission for!

Sure hope you take pics or videos of the progress and post them here. It is going to be just as exciting following along.

Hi Sarah

If there are areas on your layout that might be a bit tight, I would recommend drawing outlines of the proposed benchwork in chalk on the floor, and maybe even mock it up with cardboard boxes or similar where there are potential vertical-clearance issues.  I worked as a CAD draughtsman designing ships, with all kinds of access issues in tight spaces, and despite many years experience drawing things up in 3D, sometimes there was no substitute for a full-size mock-up.

In case you have not already thought about it, I will also mention that it is sensible to avoid locating two 'high-activity' areas such as classification yards and trackage with particularly interesting scenery on opposite sides of an aisle, because people will naturally gather at those places and suddenly you have a long, skinny dance hall - everyone is doing the waltz trying to get past each other while following trains.

I am looking forward to seeing how your design develops; it is a rare and unusual thing to witness such a large layout being constructed, so a big 'thank you' for sharing it with us.

HOLY S&$# BANANAS! Wow, that almost looks like you are building a real life mock up in real scale Sarah. I've always said I've liked the number 48, now there's another reason. What is the planned name of the Railroad if I may be so bold to ask?

@Woodsworks posted:

Hi Sarah

If there are areas on your layout that might be a bit tight, I would recommend drawing outlines of the proposed benchwork in chalk on the floor, and maybe even mock it up with cardboard boxes or similar where there are potential vertical-clearance issues.  I worked as a CAD draughtsman designing ships, with all kinds of access issues in tight spaces, and despite many years experience drawing things up in 3D, sometimes there was no substitute for a full-size mock-up.

In case you have not already thought about it, I will also mention that it is sensible to avoid locating two 'high-activity' areas such as classification yards and trackage with particularly interesting scenery on opposite sides of an aisle, because people will naturally gather at those places and suddenly you have a long, skinny dance hall - everyone is doing the waltz trying to get past each other while following trains.

I am looking forward to seeing how your design develops; it is a rare and unusual thing to witness such a large layout being constructed, so a big 'thank you' for sharing it with us.

Thank you! Your suggestions are most welcome. I'll mock up stuff in the first place. It is all in my 3D-head so far and maybe I really should proof the design before giving the concept a go. 

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

HOLY S&$# BANANAS! Wow, that almost looks like you are building a real life mock up in real scale Sarah. I've always said I've liked the number 48, now there's another reason. What is the planned name of the Railroad if I may be so bold to ask?

Dear Dave, that's funny, I really have not yet thought about a name. I really have to think about it. Nothing with "Union Pacific" of the company sends their fleet of lawyers after me

Hi Sarah,
Here's a bit of UP engine terminal inspiration for you.  It's on a much smaller scale then you are planning, but it incorporates many of the features and qualities that you seem to be aiming for with your Cheyenne facility.

Laramie Engine Terminal

I look forward to watching your progress!
Jim

@AlanRail posted:

Nice if you have the height. But with 48 square feet of space; larger than most houses why go to that trouble? 

Unless I'm missing something! do you have a tractor or other farm equipment taking up most of the space? You can do this multilevel in a more linear layout approach design that uses a good part or all of the 48 feet!

Did I miss something?  I thought her barn was 48 x 48....2304 square feet.

@Sarah posted:

 

 

Dear O-folks, 

After many many sheets of paper full of spaghetti I now made a serious step into the right direction by getting a basic space study on my Union Pacific Cheyenne layout plans. Fortunately I have an empty barn (48x48) around the corner that, after careful preparation, can be filled with flex track and the odour of smoke fluid. 

 

Here is a map of the area and you can see that this is truly a division point on a transcontinental railroad. 

 

 

Here's my approach to model all the basic functions and locations without too much of a compromise in the feel of the real thing. That means people must crawl on all fours under the benchwork?

 

 

Hopefully not! I plan to dedicate some space under the layout room for a walk-under . One of the main feature is a fully operational Colorado & Southern that interchanges some cars with the UP but in all other aspects is an independent layout "in" a layout. The iconic C&S overpass had to be done as a distinctive land mark. All the aisles are lined out in black and most of them are connected with stairs to solve the dilemma that lies within the nature of the design approach. 

 

 

The C&S overpass scene. The only backdrops will be placed on the outer walls to give the sense of a wide space. 

 

 

Only a portion of the roundhouse is being modelled to get people close to the action and to enable a reasonable reach in. I plan for 3 passenger tracks in front of the classy Cheyenne Depot with a car lenght of 12 plus engine. The freight yard serves also the purpose of a sceniced staging yard with a return loop that helps re-staging. Therefore it might become divided by double slip switches into two parts, a feature that was in place in the 1940's!

 

 

I think I have now the raw concept for what's practical in terms of aisle width and curvature. The yard is U- shaped, surrounding the installation and leading into a turn back curve. The C&S outlines the room and overlaps the Union Pacific with the iconic C&S overpass.

 

There's still space to be filled but I think I can now slowly start with the renovation of the building because the hard facts of the physical function of the concept has been worked out. 

 

I am totally aware of the oddity of my approach. This is a once in a lifetime project and so I can dedicate all the specs of the building to my track plan. I know that it is a bit much but I really think it will work out. Thanks for your support!

Sarah

This is absolutely amazing!!  I was feeling good about my 27' x 16' layout.  LOL

@Sarah posted:

Dear Dave, that's funny, I really have not yet thought about a name. I really have to think about it. Nothing with "Union Pacific" of the company sends their fleet of lawyers after me

I don't think they would send lawyers Sarah, unless they send them for every occasions out that way. Railroad names can be anything really. From Broken Down Flats, High Plains & Western, or even anything that relates to you or what you like. Union & Something, whatever comes to you. Always remember it's your railroad, and names often change or get revised depending on what your doing or like.

Sarah,

Some additional thoughts / recommendations:

• Bench work height of at least 48", maybe more.  You will want to use a rolling stool to move around underneath to do wiring and to reach access hatches.  My bench work is 50" - works great.
• Speaking of access hatches, these should be part of your planning now - not later.  The only growing I'm doing is in width and I don't have orangutan arms, either.    You will want to think about making your access hatches big enough to deal with anyone who has to use them.
• Ed Kelly's suggestion to plan all the major sections of the layout now should be taken seriously.  It's always (and normal) to do high level planning first and then, as you get to the section, do more detailed planning.  I'm using RR-Track for my layout planning.  Bench work for Panhandle 2.0 is about 40% done; scenery about 15% done.  I'm on version 87 of my layout plan and I still expect it to change (and improve) over time.
• Under the layout lighting should also get some consideration.  LED strips, rope light, whatever - it's hard to work on something while holding a portable light.

Please do keep us in the loop.  

Best of luck,

George

Yeesh! 48x48...I cant wait to see the posts and read about it in the magazine! Good luck!