And thanks for starting this topic and listening to me. It's been quite a nostalgia trip.
mlaughlinnyc posted:And thanks for starting this topic and listening to me. It's been quite a nostalgia trip.
Yes, thanks to the original poster and you as well.
Quick question, would there ever be a reason for mail storage cars, or express refers to be spotted at the end of a train? Or would they have been samwhiched between the leading RPO and a trailing baggage car, so that the bonafide passenger equipment could carry the rear markers?
I’m now thinking of a solitary RPO on an short “accommodation” train might be what I am looking for in terms of operations. My layout is very loosely inspired by my own locale in NKP territory and they were pretty sparse in terms of local trains... but there was for a few years in the 1880s a crosstown local, and the W&LE had some interesting local passenger trains as well. I will have to go look at their RPOs/Combines again when I get the chance. Generally I’ve been running mixed trains but am now looking at possibly expanding passenger operations... borrowing a bit from what I know of passenger ops in the later years where Mail contracts were all that kept them afloat.
I was on Amtrak's EMPIRE BUILDER, and thete was a bag car of mail placed behind the last sleeper MSP to CHI.
I could see storage mail and express cars at the end of a train that is easy to switch on or off the train.
I have seen pics of REA plus express PFE and PRR REFER cars as head in cars on passenger trains. If the items inside needed to be cool, where were they iced?
In the last few years before Amtrak, Great Northern's Western Star (which had been merged with the Fast Mail in 1960) often carried it's RPO / Mail/Express cars after the passenger cars, with a rider-baggage car (baggage car with a window, chair and desk for an employee) at the end of the train.
RPOs are different from Mail storage cars. RPO or railway post office cars were staffed by postal employees and worked mail in the car during the run. They would pick up main at one station and deliver to another down the line if it was going there, or sort if the long distance mail while running. They ran on fixed routes that stayed the same for periods of time based on US Postal contracts with the RRs. The post office leased RPO space as 15, 30, ot 60 foot segments. The 15 and 30 foot would be on combines, while the 60 foot were generally the whole car but some might have a 10 or 15 ft mail storage section. The RPOs were not switched on and off based on waybills, they ran the same route every day and often paid for the passenger train.
Mail storage cars I am going to guess behave more like other types of express cars and move based on the waybill routing. A given train might handle some every day but not necessarily the same number and type. They would be based on the quantity to be moved.
RPOs disappeared I think in the 1960s adn the postal employees had move back into permanent post offices.
There was an almost complete issue on RPOs in the PRRT&HS journal some years ago describing their operations.
A local train might have combine with an RPO section depending on the route 15 or 30 feet long. some gas-electrics had 15 ft RPOs.
Another good resource for mail trains is the Fall 2006 issue of Classic Trains.
Rusty
Redshirt214 posted:Quick question, would there ever be a reason for mail storage cars, or express refers to be spotted at the end of a train? Or would they have been samwhiched between the leading RPO and a trailing baggage car, so that the bonafide passenger equipment could carry the rear markers?
I’m now thinking of a solitary RPO on an short “accommodation” train might be what I am looking for in terms of operations. My layout is very loosely inspired by my own locale in NKP territory and they were pretty sparse in terms of local trains... but there was for a few years in the 1880s a crosstown local, and the W&LE had some interesting local passenger trains as well. I will have to go look at their RPOs/Combines again when I get the chance. Generally I’ve been running mixed trains but am now looking at possibly expanding passenger operations... borrowing a bit from what I know of passenger ops in the later years where Mail contracts were all that kept them afloat.
A few thoughts on those comments.
in regard to :" the bonafide passenger equipment could carry the rear markers?" Not at all. Bond fide passenger equipment is any car with a brake system compatible with passenger operation. Markers could be on the end of a closed express box car. But that was inocnvenient for the rear brakeman when he had to go out to protect the rear of the trains or throww off fusees. Usually if at the end car was not a passenger car or cabosse, it was being dropped or picked up enroute and they wanted to avoid a switch move.
Don't run an RPO behind passenger cars. The crew needs to have acess to the rear p[latform on the train. The preference ona short train would be for the RPO compartment to lead so the crew would have access to the baggage compartment.
I saw a mention of a PFE reefer in a passenger train. That would be extraordinary and impractical as a regular practice. Freight cars did not have steam lines or train signal lines. It was mandatory that the train crew be able to send signals to the engine.
When thinking aobut the exceptions in model railroading, consider what you are trying to do. If it is to run typical passenger trains, you don't want to use those expecption conditions that are so interesting ro modelers and railfans. If you do that, you're modeling a n operation that is always an exception and not typical of the real world.
When looking at history in railfan magazines, remember the ordinary doesn't interest the writers. It's the exceptions that are fun to write about. I first realized that in 1959 when I went to work for a railroad. I quickly found out that a lot of what was in Trains Magazine was different from the ordinary day to day railroading.
Dominic Mazoch posted:I was on Amtrak's EMPIRE BUILDER, and thete was a bag car of mail placed behind the last sleeper MSP to CHI.
I could see storage mail and express cars at the end of a train that is easy to switch on or off the train.
I have seen pics of REA plus express PFE and PRR REFER cars as head in cars on passenger trains. If the items inside needed to be cool, where were they iced?
The mention of Amtrak brings to mind the era problem. If you want to model the pre-Amtrak era, ignore anything written about Amtrak's practices. Amtrak was set up by people who didn't understand the railroad business. The first chief executive was a McKinsey consultant and the VP marketing was from an airline.
Award winning English documentary about a mail train. Made the year I was born, 1936. There is even a poem with music by Benjamin Britten.
RPOs were on the decline starting in 1948. To quote from Wiki "In September 1967 the POD cancelled all "mail by rail" contracts, electing to move all First Class mail via air and other classes by road (truck) transport. This announcement had a devastating effect on passenger train revenues; the Santa Fe, for example, lost $35 million (US) in annual business, and led directly to the ending of many passenger rail routes.
After 113 years of railway post office operation, the last surviving railway post office running on rails between New York and Washington was discontinued on June 30, 1977."
I believe this was an all mail train, not carrying any passengers. So if you're modeling the Amtrak era basically no rpo service. The ones that lasted into the 1960s were on major intercity routes, not the short local runs.
The LIRR ran an interesting train for a while. To keep the mail contract they needed an rpo on the connection from Babylon (end of electric MU service) to Patchogue for which they were using a pair of RDCs. They hung an underfloor generator on a rpo/baggage MU combine and attached it to the pair of RDCs. Unfortunately few photos exist of this train as it really was an odd ball--RDCs and a 3rd rail MU car.
Very interesting postings! I have wanted to use several RPO cars from different western roads at a "central" post office ..this l envisioned as a large building with both truck and rail platforms with a yard l was going to fill with many roads' RPO cars. This is Fantasyland, and never existed? My friend says dad was an armed postal supervisor, Pittsburgh to Chicago, retiring when route ended, and he guarded and moved certified and registered mail on train to RR yard and then by TRUCK to and from these cities' main post offices....so...no rail service or yard at any post office? Rats! Thwarted again!
Council Bluffs, Iowa had a mail transfer facility that was owned by the UP and also used by the CB&Q, C&NW, Milwaukee Road, Rock Island, Wabash and CGW.
Rusty
In some cases the PO was over the tracks, e.g. Pennsylvania Station, mail moved down to the trains.
Many cities had people whose job was described as a "Transfer Agent" where the need was to see mail moved from one RR to another nearby. There are RPO postmarks that show this and the city.
The only possiblility for what you've described would be at a "Union Station" served by several railroads. Don't know if it ever did exist but I could envision the RPOs at the same platform, preferably one not serving passengers and post office personnel moving bags of mail from car to car.
(OT and something that has always bugged me is folks refering to GCT as Grand Central Station. There was a Grand Central Station and it was the post office north of GCT.)
Thanks, Rusty....two of those roads ran into Colorado(+ UP=3), so is there a book (maybe UP) that pictures and addresses that Council Bluffs operation? I will put a fictional example on the JointLine.
mlaughlinnyc postedI saw a mention of a PFE reefer in a passenger train. That would be extraordinary and impractical as a regular practice. Freight cars did not have steam lines or train signal lines. It was mandatory that the train crew be able to send signals to the engine.
Not every railroad was the UP, SP or Santa Fe. Roads that participated in express reefer service were expected to forward reefers in a timely manner so they would make their next connection. If there were not enough reefers in the yard to justify running a special train and there was a passenger train that would make the run in the time required, some railroads would tack the reefers on to the back of the passenger train.
All Postal clerks in railway service were required to be armed according to the articles I read.
A Union station might well have a Post office facility and platform as part of the station where cars from the railroads using the station would load and unload. I have seen photos of Post Office buildings next to platforms in some article. These probably were not open to the public but were were transfer facilities for the various routes.
There is another big reason that freight cars did not normally run in most passenger trains. The bearings in freight cars were smaller and tended to overheat in the faster service that passenger trains on main lines normally ran. PRR when they converted a string of X29 boxcars to express service replaced the trucks with ones with larger bearings and better suspensions that would handle the speeds of passenger trains.
Now branch line mixeds and such might well handle freight but these ran at slow speeds generally.
Ron H posted:At Carbondale some mail is moved between the NYC and ATSF in the REA facility.
You can't have mail transferred at an REA facility and v.v. Mail was transferred at post offices and express at Railway Express Agency facilities.
BTW, the facility you show in the photo had to be Railway Express, not REA. It was in the early 60's that the name was changed to REA Express. The aoutomobiles in the phot were long gone then.
Bill N posted:mlaughlinnyc postedI saw a mention of a PFE reefer in a passenger train. That would be extraordinary and impractical as a regular practice. Freight cars did not have steam lines or train signal lines. It was mandatory that the train crew be able to send signals to the engine.
Not every railroad was the UP, SP or Santa Fe. Roads that participated in express reefer service were expected to forward reefers in a timely manner so they would make their next connection. If there were not enough reefers in the yard to justify running a special train and there was a passenger train that would make the run in the time required, some railroads would tack the reefers on to the back of the passenger train.
You're mixing reefers in freight service with express reefers. Those were two kinds of cars in very different services.
Reefers in a yard were in freight service and were never (99.99 % certainty) moved in passenger service. Freight yards and passenger stations were in widely separated locations and there was little movement between them.
If there were not enough reefers to fill a train then they were run in a train with ordinary freight. That train might run as a second section of the all reefer train.
As for what we think of as reefer trains on the UP, SP and Santa Fe, that was a result of the number of cars. For example, here's what ahppened at a typical major classification yard of a railroad serving a large perishables shipping area, using SP around Sacramento as an example.
Cars arrived in blocks from yards serving the growers, e.g., Stockton, Fresno and Salinas. If there was regular freight from one of those yards, it would be in one of the same train as the reefers. As those trains went over the hump, perishables migth go into a perishables only block for a few destinations. But a large number of those cars would go into gneral freight blocks in the yard. Same game for blocks of cars from the ice house.
Many freight train schedules were set to expedite perishables traffic. But that did not mean that only perishables could be moved in those trains or that all perishables would move in such trains. If there was enough perishable traffic to fill two and a half trains to one destiantion, then one of the three traisn on that schedule would be half ordinary freight. Solid perishables trains were the result of there being enough reefers to a specific destination to fill a train. On a day that there were not enough perishables to fill a train, there would be no solid reefer trains and the reefers woudl be in a train with ordinary freight but in a separate block that might be given preference in switching at the destination yard.
But all of this discussion is about freight service, which means traffic moving on a freight tariff and has nothing to do with express. Express reefer traffic, for example flowers from Florida, moved in passenger trains and never got near a freight yard.
The PFE had a few, but not many, wood sided express refers with passenger equipment. I think they were green, and Atlas O made a model of them. These are the cars I am "refering" to. An orange PFE car would be out place as a head end car.
mlaughlinnyc posted:Ron H posted:At Carbondale some mail is moved between the NYC and ATSF in the REA facility.
You can't have mail transferred at an REA facility and v.v. Mail was transferred at post offices and express at Railway Express Agency facilities.
BTW, the facility you show in the photo had to be Railway Express, not REA. It was in the early 60's that the name was changed to REA Express. The aoutomobiles in the phot were long gone then.
Thanks for the info. Since the structure is privately owned it has a segmented lease arrangement with both the postal service and the railway express.
At least, on my railroad. However,I will find the proper signage for Railway Express.
Another thing that could be carried in a railroad baggage car, passenger or M&E train is company mail for that road. That included paychecks for workers out in the boonies!
mlaughlinnyc Since we are wandering off topic I will Keep this to a minimum. From Goolsby's Atlanta, Birmingham & Coast:
"One adjustment was to increase passenger train productivity by routinely adding freight cars to their consists, usually priority boxcar loads or reefers and ventilated boxcars carrying perishables."
"Most of the additional freight cars were placed on the Atlanta-Waycross Trains 1-2 and their night counterparts 3-4, Northbound, this traffic was largely perishables from the ACL at Waycross that did not make connections with time freight 56 or which exceeded No. 56's tonnage capacity."
He goes on to describe how the trains would leave the passenger terminal and then stop at the freight yard to have the freight cars added. TOFC apparently received similar treatment in later years. One picture of train 4 from 1946 shows four reefers which were placed between the engine and the head end cars. Unfortunately I cannot make out whether those head end cars include one of the AB&Cs RPOs. In another from 1942 train 1 is shown with five boxcars between its engine and RPO. As I said not every road was the UP, SP or Santa Fe.
Chicago's Union Station was served by several passenger railroads in the 1950s and early 1960s. That station was just north of Chicago's Main Post Office, which both the station entry tracks from the south and Eisenhower Expressway went under. One could often see RPOs and mail storage cars from several railroads lined up on the post office servicing tracks.
Chuck
I did see one RI passenger train here in Houston with TOFC flats in the 1960's.
Bill N posted:mlaughlinnyc Since we are wandering off topic I will Keep this to a minimum. From Goolsby's Atlanta, Birmingham & Coast:
"One adjustment was to increase passenger train productivity by routinely adding freight cars to their consists, usually priority boxcar loads or reefers and ventilated boxcars carrying perishables."
"Most of the additional freight cars were placed on the Atlanta-Waycross Trains 1-2 and their night counterparts 3-4, Northbound, this traffic was largely perishables from the ACL at Waycross that did not make connections with time freight 56 or which exceeded No. 56's tonnage capacity."
He goes on to describe how the trains would leave the passenger terminal and then stop at the freight yard to have the freight cars added. TOFC apparently received similar treatment in later years. One picture of train 4 from 1946 shows four reefers which were placed between the engine and the head end cars. Unfortunately I cannot make out whether those head end cars include one of the AB&Cs RPOs. In another from 1942 train 1 is shown with five boxcars between its engine and RPO. As I said not every road was the UP, SP or Santa Fe.
Interesting. Odd things happened in the declining years of passenger service. Freight cars on the head end would have been a big problem in the days of steam activated air conditioning or in any weather that called for steam heating - maybe less of a problem in Georgia than in New York, for a few months.
Here are some photos I took recently of the Post Office car on display at the Lake Superior Railroad Museum located in the old Union Depot in Duluth, MN.
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