Are the metal gears installed the same way?
I worked at my uncles train store repair/selling trains since I was 8 years old. Lionel over the years have gone to plastic gears, plastic pinions on motors on even expensive accessories! After selling lots of gantry cranes, circus items, even the train shop with operating layouts, they all come back with certain plastic gears and even rubber band style belts that are broken or stretched. I have a customer right now with a $400 operating train store with a bad belt and lionel discontinued the belt! Why would you discontinue the one replaceable part that would go bad? The polar express and starter engines are the same way, I've replaced at least 100 boards in polar express. Also the 80 watt transformer, one Christmas we had to send back at least 40 of them that were sold in sets. When we sell an mth starter set with metal gears etc, they rarely come back. I love both manufacturers but I sell more postwar accessories now than ever because customers want something that was made right and has parts available. Their lione chief line is junk in my opinion. It's really overpriced junk they throw in a junky remote and everyone buys it. The lion Cheif has a toys r us feel to it including the crappy remote. Lionel has got to keep parts for this stuff.
Almost all the postwar Lionel diesel wheels that I have seen appear to be cast as one piece.
I have not handled as many Modern era Lionel diesel wheels. So far they also appear to be cast as one piece.
I have read that very early #41 switchers had the gear and wheel cast separately.
I have handled some. There does appear to be a crack between the wheel and gear.
The #41 wheels have their own part numbers. There are two numbers for each wheel. I thought the difference was whether there was a boss for the side rods.
There may be a problem, or there may not be a problem. Isn't it possible, perhaps even likely, that this is a perfectly decent design and what we have here is a single instance of a part failing? Haven't heard anyone suggest that possibility being raised, and I think it's the most likely one.
Why do you think it's the most likely scenario?
Unusual operating conditions?
User error?
Defective sample?
Regardless of whether these plastic gears are a failure point, there are people who expected metal, don't like the idea of plastic gears, and will not purchase locomotives that have them.
C W Burfle posted:There may be a problem, or there may not be a problem. Isn't it possible, perhaps even likely, that this is a perfectly decent design and what we have here is a single instance of a part failing? Haven't heard anyone suggest that possibility being raised, and I think it's the most likely one.
Why do you think it's the most likely scenario?
Unusual operating conditions?
User error?
Defective sample?Regardless of whether these plastic gears are a failure point, there are people who expected metal, don't like the idea of plastic gears, and will not purchase locomotives that have them.
And if enough people dont buy them - then they will have made a statement and Lionel might have to respond.
It was mentioned in another thread that some parts are designed to fail - so they don't ruin more parts when they do.
Metal on metal - sounds like it could cause "nastier" failure - rather than one part failing and saving the rest of the assembly.
Not unheard of when designing geared systems - one might be made of a softer metal - so it fails first.
So - not sure we can assume plastic parts are the result of cost cutting.
Well, there are two things that happen today. Users do not read the owner's manuals and no one has oil.
I have found that reading the manual and using 10w sewing machine oil greatly improves my end user experience with Lionel trains and products. Hey, there is even a Lionel oil product!
The lack of information surrounding the occurrence of this failure puts the story in the "Chicken Little" category. The condition of the wheels, which has already been commented upon, would lead one to believe that this is a result of the aforementioned conditions. In fact, they appear to be the wheels from the "broken axle" thread. This adds suspicion to the intent of this thread.
"Why do you think it's the most likely scenario?
Unusual operating conditions?
User error?
Defective sample?"
Perhaps because there aren't 5-10 similar posts? Tens of thousands of LionChief and LionChief+ locos have been sold, maybe hundreds of thousands since they are in Lionel's sets and they sell tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of these per year. If this design is common to some or most, and it is doomed to early failure, we would expect a plethora of angry or at least unhappy posts, not just one 
. What we have here on this thread is a lot of people who don't like the idea of plastic gears. Their prerogative to be sure. But no data, just preferences and one MTH homer. Some people hate automatic transmissions, but they work well and are everywhere.
Thus I'd venture a reasonably educated and preliminary guess of "defective sample." Bad luck, in other words. Stochastic reality of the design and manufacturing process. Poop happens. The explanation for the vast majority of problems reported here and elsewhere. Consumer Reports data based upon subscriber surveys suggests that consumer electromechanical products such as dishwashers, washers, dryers, etc. fail at the rate of 5-10%, even when made by reputable manufacturing giants whose names we all know. Some of this is user error to be sure, but some is just entropy.
In summary, in God we Trust, but everyone else needs data. No data here yet, just a one off bad experience. Not saying the original poster isn't right to be annoyed, but it doesn't signify anything for me or my buying patterns, at least yet. It's not like similar issues haven't been raised about every other manufacturer over the years.
On a positive note, these days you can probably print a 3D plastic replica of the gear at shapeways and reconstruct the wheel... should you need to do it. Course you can print metal now too, so you could replace the plastic bit with a stainless version... probably some hand cleanup would be needed. Alternatively you could just print the whole wheel and gear together. It might be a little pricey today to do -- but think of at as investment in the future. Sounds like a great "weekend" project...
Postwar engines are still kicking butt to this day , no plastic gears or breaking points.
Postwar Lionel did use a nylon gear in one of their F3 motor drive trains in an attempt to quiet it.
I guess for me the big question here is why the change? Was there something wrong with the old "all metal" design? If this is better, when will we see this design improvement showing up on our legacy engines?
Honestly, I don't see how this change saves Lionel any significant amount money during the manufacturing process but maybe the bean counters know something we don't.
It doesn't take an engineer or someone with a "solid background in science and statistics" to know that plastic is weaker than metal, plastic is cheaper than metal, and in when used in mechanics a plastic part won't outlast its metal counterpart.
I cancelled my order because I'm not willing to pay $330+ for an engine with plastic drive gears. I've bought many used LC engines for much less than $100 because I knew they were designed and built cheaply and have little to no collection value. They are fodder for the kids layout, break often, and aren't worth more than an hour of my time to spend fixing them. My most common failures (in this order) are the remotes from being dropped, motors that burn out, and stripped gears.
I may reorder an LC+ engine if someone from Lionel can directly address all of us here to explain why this was changed and somehow explain why this better for the end user. I won't hold my breath....
Man you think Lionel would of learned it's leason after the CC Niagara debacle. Guess not.
C W Burfle posted:Postwar engines are still kicking butt to this day , no plastic gears or breaking points.
Postwar Lionel did use a nylon gear in one of their F3 motor drive trains in an attempt to quiet it.
My all original 2383 Santa Fe F3, that ran on the first Christmas layout in 1966, has the nylon gears. Never been changed, and the loco still runs like a champ pulling plenty of cars.
As far as the current Lionchief and Lionchief+, I have several. No issues, and some have seen regular use for almost 3 years now.
if someone does have a problem with theirs, it is a legitimate thing to talk about, as the OP does here.
That doesn't mean that every single one is having a problem.
Likewise, those of us who have posted good experiences are not Lionel "fanboys" who would accept silly putty.
I own locos from 1937 thru 2017. MTH, Lionel, Atlas, Weaver, etc.. Most all are good, some have had issues, and I have posted the good and bad, regardless of company, over the years here.
H1000 posted:. They are fodder for the kids layout,break often, and aren't worth more than an hour of my time to spend fixing them. My most common failures (in this order) are the remotes from being dropped, motors that burn out, and stripped gears.
I'm curious where this data comes from? Actual data, not anecdotal. I own 4. None have broken. I do have a Legacy that was DOA. Dealer took care of that. My layout is an adult layout LC+ , Legacy, TMCC, PS2 and PS3 all run around the rails here.
EscapeRocks posted:H1000 posted:. They are fodder for the kids layout,break often, and aren't worth more than an hour of my time to spend fixing them. My most common failures (in this order) are the remotes from being dropped, motors that burn out, and stripped gears.
I'm curious where this data comes from? Actual data, not anecdotal. I own 4. None have broken. I do have a Legacy that was DOA. Dealer took care of that. My layout is an adult layout
This is my data, collected by me:
We currently own 6 LC and 1 LC+.
Of the current roster of six, two have had motors replaced and two are on their second remotes (from donor engines). 5 of these engines are 2 years old and 1 is three years old. The LC+ has operated well and had no need for any repairs.
I have 7 LC engines in the graveyard from the kids club layout that were inoperable beyond repair in the last three years:
3 from dead electronics, 5 remotes have been trashed due to no longer working after being dropped. 4 engines were trashed due to dead motors. I keep a box of graveyard salvage parts from the LC engines. As parts build up, I sometimes patch a few of these graveyard units together to get one working unit.
I have recently bought a used complete LC sets for $75 that is still on the way to me that will eventually be used on the kids layout also. I have found that when it is this cheap, why waste two hours of my life patching together one complete engine from graveyard parts.
Now keep in mind that ALL of the LC sets are purchased used and have had previous use. I have only had one come to me that needed some repair (stripped gears) before it would operate again and it is still going today. The one and only LC+ engine was purchased new and is allowed for use by the more experience and responsible operates on the kids layout.
Our kids layout operates 4 trains at one time and logs a lot of use. These engines get run pretty hard as most 5 & 6 year old kids like to see how fast things will go!
Stripped gears is pretty low on the list of failures but it has happen a few times and I have plenty of replacement parts from the graveyard box. I can tell you that the motors don't care to be run "wide-open" in one direction and quickly reversed rapidly... a very hard concept for some kids to understand.
superwarp1 posted:Man you think Lionel would of learned it's leason after the CC Niagara debacle. Guess not.
Exxxxxactly....and the one guy that helped rectify the bad design with a metal gear set is not longer with lionel. Go figure.
Prior to that many of these loos were shelf queens for 15 years.
Unfortunately there are those of us who simply cannot (or are foolish enough to) believe every misfortune with a lionel product is a fluke.
I.e. John Zs answer regarding the lionmaster class a, and 0-8-0s with the substandard speed control......."My bad".
Are you kidding???
My money is on Lionel did not know about this change until this thread!
Well we can all agree that it seems that this certainly was not done to improve quality. If it was, I would love to hear the science behind it. BigRail
If Lionel didn't know about the change-then shame on them !!
Plastic is for garbage bags and metal is for gears.
Charlie
This thread is like reading a Mary Shelley "Frankenstein" castle mob scene, maybe a Mel Brooks violin would help.
I am picking up some good preventive maintenance ideas from this discussion. Like many above, I am 90% postwar, my one 0-4-0 LC+ continues with no problems via my carpet layout, have the military LC+ on order.
Enjoy your toys...
This thread seems to be about only hating and it appears that anyone who disagrees must be publicly shamed and lambasted with snide remarks and demands they purchase large numbers of the products being criticized and then suffer their fate.
How childish. Period. Ther could be a good reason for the change including the issues of zinc pest having come back due to manufacturing issues. Maybe, just maybe the product could be fine?
I know this is terrible to suggest so please report me to the admin for pointing these issues out. Maybe the thread will finally get closed.
I can't help but be negative, unfortunately, all four of my Lionchief or Lionchief plus engines have or have had issues. A self shorting smoke unit in the first (cheaper to order a new one than send it in for repairs), a dead board in the second engine and drops a gear on occasion for no reason, the front truck wheel issue (fixed by accident) on the third, an a second dead board on the fourth, and a miss drilled gear (I need to email Lionel about it). I am the first owner of all of them, and am extremely thankful for Lionel honoring their warranty on the dead boards and fixing them promptly. They are all oiled and greased regularly so maintenance is not the issue.
There was a Lionchief Plus recall on the RS3 over the traction tires. I wonder if some engines have different trucks or parts depending on the batch, like the bronze on bronze axle of an different thread, some may have the old style.
MPC may have been considered cheap, but running them hard, and beyond what they were built to do will ruin anything. Legacy, Post-war, Pre-war, MTH, Walthers, MPC, TMCC, Atlas, and the other brands, makes, what have you, they will be destroyed with improper use, storage and maintenance.
I would appreciate a stated train length with engines and sets, like the 2-4-2 Lionchief scout engines came with, stating ten cars tops. MPC I figured it out by going by the longest train set they made, the Spirit of 76, 13 box cars with one caboose. They used a slightly lower gear ratio on the engine, so I figure on an oval 10 to 14 car max trains, with high speed axles, not die-cast, not post-war, just MPC era cars and cars of similar design. Lionchief Plus I have heard forty cars, but I need to find the video again with the first showing of the NW2 and The Camelback. This information I think should really be added it would really help engines last, avoid burnt out motors, dead boards, and stripped gears. Plus save them all money in the long run with fewer repairs on warranty, and fewer complaints, assuming anyone reads the manual.
How childish. Period. Ther could be a good reason for the change including the issues of zinc pest having come back due to manufacturing issues. Maybe, just maybe the product could be fine?
Sintered iron wheels cannot get zinc pest.
During the Modern era, Lionel has used ZAMAC and Sintered iron for their drive wheels. What does these engines have?
C W Burfle posted:How childish. Period. Ther could be a good reason for the change including the issues of zinc pest having come back due to manufacturing issues. Maybe, just maybe the product could be fine?
Sintered iron wheels cannot get zinc pest.
During the Modern era, Lionel has used ZAMAC and Sintered iron for their drive wheels. What does these engines have?
The particular wheels which were the subject of this post were sintered iron, taken from a recent Lionchief Plus diesel. This same tooling could also be used for zinc. So in theory, they could do this on the cheaper Lionchief diesels which are packaged in sets. I have not observed this change on zinc wheels, yet.
