Official York Attendance in Oct. now up.

Hi Folks,

Membership in all model train organizations is declining.  The NMRA Magazine prints an editorial about this in nearly every issue.

The reason for the decline, in my observation, is that most of the current members including the leaders of these organizations do not make any real effort to recruit new members.  How many of you have invited someone who knows little or nothing about this hobby to view your collection or layout?  How many of you are members of a modular group or club?  Do you invite people to join your group or club?  Does the group welcome new people?  (I know some groups / clubs that are at best indifferent or hostile to new members.  Do I really have to teach the new guy how to run this layout?)  How many of you have taken a friend to a local TCA or NMRA meet?  Do you invite non-train people to run on your layout?  Does your group / club have meets that will excite a potential member and inspire them to join.  (I know that some of you do all of these things but I think that the vast majority of TCA members do not.  The same is true for NMRA members.)

My own NMRA Division (Coast Division) constantly publishes articles about recruiting new members and has tables at local train shows.  When it comes to its own meets, however, there is nothing for the new member.  Potential members aren't even recognized. It is a SOG and SOW meet  (Same Old Guys/Gals doing things the Same Old Way.)

I was heavily into the 3-rail train hobby for about 10 years before anyone told me about my local TCA division (Nor-Cal) and its meets.  I hung out at a now closed hobby shop with a lot of TCA members for years.  None of the TCA members told me they were members or invited me to attend the local meet.  I had to find out about TCA myself and then I just showed up at my first meet.  I have made some wonderful friends since joining TCA.  My point is that I would have joined years sooner if anyone had invited me to a local meet.  

My understanding is that the reason the York meet is closed to the public is because of sales tax reasons.  The Eastern Division of TCA made a deal with the PA tax people that as long it is a members only meet sellers do not have to collect and pay PA sales tax.  (I have never been to York.  I have heard that the Orange Hall sellers who are mostly commercial dealers such as Charles Ro do collect sales tax.  Commercial dealers are set up to do this.)

Many of the individuals who sell at York are from outside PA.  Some of my CA friends haul trains to York to sell.  None of these "casual" sellers want to collect and file PA sales tax returns.  Aren't all the halls except for the Orange Hall filled with TCA member sellers?

I sell trains on eBay and sometimes I sell at local shows.  I am going to fill out my CA sales tax form and write a check for my CA tax sales after I post this reply.  Gathering the information and filling out the form usually takes about 2 days.  I don't collect sales tax from buyers when I sell at a local train show but under CA law I have to pay the sales tax.  The tax comes out my pocket and is about 10% of the sales price.  I wouldn't want to have to do this process for any other state.

Joe   

Yes, Pete, I am new.  I do recall attending York at one time and was charged Pa sales  tax because I purchased by credit card rather than cash.  Whether charging sales tax on all sales because it is an open event for the public instead of just TCA membership discourages attendance remains to be seen.  Sometimes when we have a good thing going for us, we don't want to change it--even if ultimately it may inadvertently cause us harm.  So we can avoid sales tax by making it a club activity exclusively, but as time goes on and attendance and membership dwindles, train manufactures and dealers' attendance will also dwindle from lack of interest.  So what do you do in that environment?  There has to be a re-examination to see what will work in a different set of circumstances.  If one has to pay sales tax as a price for making the hobby and the TCA survive, well, maybe that has to be done.  We cannot be so self-serving for ourselves that we expect the TCA to survive by keeping things as they are for us when it may not be good for its own survival in the long run.

Admittedly I have been a critic of the TCA , a big supporter of the Eastern Division but sooner or later one must face reality- facts if you will!!

To attend York the requirement is a $50 membership in the TCA. This gets you a small quarterly magazine, mostly about antique trains  a newspaper type, "for sale" paper and membership card. The dues were recently raised to $50 and the association lost over 2,000 members in 2014. The membership continues  to decline. These are facts not my opinion.

Now for my opinion. The steady decline of TCA membership (including my own) undoubtedly will have a negative effect on York attendance. Something needs to be done to reverse this. If the bylaws of the ED do not permit the meet being opened to the public (which I feel is hurting the meet) then the Eastern Division:

1. Must change the bylaws to make York a commercial meet like Greenbergs.

2. Start selling a weekend membership pass to the E.D for $10 that allows entry into York

3. Convince the National TCA that they must offer the $35 membership again but one that provides no printed mailed material but online publications only. The biggest cost of the membership fee is currently printing and postage. Eliminate this and at $35 you take in more revenue than at the current $50 membership fee with all the paper and high postage costs. For the members that insist on paper then a $50 membership can be charged.

4. Do nothing and accept the eventual and inevitable demise of the TCA.

but consider....doing things the same way and expecting a different result is the sure path to failure.  Am I wrong about this????

 The people in the ED are very good folks, have done a great job and deserve much credit for their hard work putting together the largest O gauge train meet in the world. While I do not need to buy many more trains at this point in my life, it is still my desire to continue to support the ED and attend York. However, I must decline if I am forced to buy a $50 membership card to do so.

quote:

 Whether charging sales tax on all sales because it is an open event for the public instead of just TCA membership discourages attendance remains to be seen.  

Its not really an issue of whether customers have to pay sales tax. They already do in the dealer halls.

The issue is requiring member table holders to register with the Pennsylvania tax department, collect sales tax, and submit whatever else is required. Most casual sellers aren't going to do it.
Once again, most folks on this board seem to be focused on the dealer halls, so they don't see the issue, and/or don't care.

There are plenty of TCA members whose interest lies in the member halls.

quote:

3. Convince the National TCA that they must offer the $35 membership again but one that provides no printed mailed material but online publications only. The biggest cost of the membership fee is currently printing and postage. Eliminate this and at $35 you take in more revenue than at the current $50 membership fee with all the paper and high postage costs. For the members that insist on paper then a $50 membership can be charged.

IMHO, this is a constructive suggestion.

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If the bylaws of the ED do not permit the meet being opened to the public (which I feel is hurting the meet) then the Eastern Division:

1. Must change the bylaws to make York a commercial meet like Greenbergs.

As has already been mentioned, there was an arrangement made with the PA tax department that requires the show to remain closed.
Were even part of the show opened to the general public, member table holders would be required to have PA tax numbers. The whole tone of the show would change, and the show would not be worth the six hour drive (one way) to attend.

The York train meet is put on first and foremost for the members. It was never intended to be a vehicle to "grow the hobby".

What do any of the manufacturer / importers do to "grow the hobby" anyway?

Sales tax is less of issue for buyers than it is for sellers. See Joe Barker's post. While sales tax is collected in the three dealer halls it is not in the 4 member halls. Not having to collect sales tax is one of the benefits of joining the club. I don't see how increasing the red tape of doing business will increase membership.

Who do you expect the Eastern Division to be reaching out to? Interest in model trains has been declining since the '50s with the introduction of slot cars. Are the video game buyers going to trade in their sets for trains? 

Pete

The recent discussion has more to do with TCA rules, regulations, and fees for membership. The York Meet, though interconnected, has absolutely nothing to do with that subject matter.

I think most who attend like the idea that it is a TCA Meet and is closed to the public. As someone said, this Meet is expressly for the enjoyment of the TCA membership. If you don't agree with what it takes to be a TCA member, then just DON'T GO to York. This is the greatest event we have for TCA members and I am happy for it and would not recommend any changes in the admission requirements.

There are some who argue that the TCA and the Eastern Division are somehow distinct.  They may be in operating principles and organizational structure, but they both have a similar goal--the perpetuation of the hobby of trains.  There is some cooperation between them for the TCA York event especially since TCA membership is a sine quo non for attending it in the first place.  Can't they get together for the sake of the hobby to foster that goal without letting existing organizational structures impede it?  I don't see why not.  It is easy to look at this event parochially, suggesting that TCA members only need attend.  But remember that you were a train buff long before you became a TCA member.  We don't have that situation today.  There is no reason to be a member if fewer younger people are getting into the hobby, even if you reduce the cost of membership.  We have to get them into the hobby first and then maybe TCA membership will increase as well as attendance at events.  In that regard, the TCA and/or the Eastern Division, or whomever has a role to play if it wants to.  The suggestion to open up the event to the general public might not help you individually as an existing member looking at the situation in a self-serving manner, but it "may" help the hobby generally in the long run and could result in increased membership and attendance at events.  It may not work, but it's worth a try instead of doing nothing and hoping for a better result when we all realize that it won't happen.

Seens like the TCT ED has it the way they like it. Most of the proposed changes will change it so much, it won't be what it was. So it would cease to exist sooner than if it died intact.

It's not broken...it's just from an earlier time.

So York is successful because of a tax loop hole.  How do train stores that are not in these five states survive?  Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon are the only states that don’t charge a sales tax.  Guests of members are not members.  How do they get off not paying sales tax?

"doing nothing and hoping for a better result"

I guess your entire conversation centers around your personal view that things should get better. You certainly are entitled to your opinion. It does raise the question are you speaking as a member of the TCA or from an outsider's view?

I only have a 14 year history with the York Meet, but the fun and quality of what I have gotten from attending this show is unchanged since the first time I walked into this Meet. My Bride attended her first York last October and can't wait to go back. She had a fabulous time as a newcomer. So to address your comment about a better result, not what I am looking for as it is wonderful just the way it is. OK, even if the numbers of attendees is down, it has not watered down what those who support the TCA and the York Meet get out of it. And until this quality factor is effected, I am happy to leave it as it is.

Most people who are satisfied with the status quo in so far as it affects themselves personally are "happy to leave it as it is."  No disputing that at all!

quote:

So York is successful because of a tax loop hole. 

Yup.

Nothing like presenting the information in the most negative way possible.

So, if you have attended in the past, will you stay away in protest?

"So, if you have attended in the past, will you stay away in protest?"

CW, funniest thing I have read today, thanks for the lift.

I love these York threads!  Keep it going, I'm ready. 

When I attend York, most of the customers I see are in the dealer halls (esp. orange).  Most of the time if the customers, like me, go into the member halls, they may buy one or two items from any one vendor and then go on to another.  I have not seen a lot of really expensive or new items in the member halls, mostly old stuff.  Now if I drive 250 miles to York and spend money for gas to get there, do you really think I am going to quibble about sales tax in a member hall if I am there to find something that I might not be able to get back home?  When it comes to expensive or new stuff most of the people I see go into the Orange Hall, and, as you suggested, pay the tax anyway.  If a vendor is going to go out of business because of a tax requirement, they were probably going to go out of business anyway.  There are others who are quite willing to buy their stock of used trains.

If you do NOT like the York Meet of the TCA, don't like the meet rules, and/or don't want to participate in any way, shape, or form, please--I'm begging you--stay home and play trains or find some other activity to fill your hours and mind.

Your absence will simply make it possible/easier for those of us who DO enjoy the meet to (1) find decent hotel rooms at reasonable rates, (2) locate parking spots closer to our favorite York halls, (3) avoid long lines in traffic and long wait times at popular restaurants, (4) enjoy unimpeded navigation of aisles in the various halls, and (5) find more neat goodies for our respective collections and layouts.

Attendance at the York Meet is NOT mandatory for anyone. Those who have negative vibes about the event should simply stay away and avoid any and all online (in particular) discussions about the meet.

I never knew that the TCA was like a country club!

I let my membership expire after the October show. This was my forth York show. The first was great, the last three were so-so. Some of you on the forum are just like the members of the local Elks Lodges, VFW's, American Legions or other organizations that are dying slow deaths tike the TCA. You are not willing to change and one day you'll wake up and wonder what happened to all the members. There are a few of you that act like you know everything about the TCA. If this is true post the average age of the membership. There are TCA shows that are not as big as York that prosper. They have shows and let the general public attend a couple hours after the members get free reign of the show. More dealers would show up and pay more if they knew they had a chance to make up their expenses. Selling in a fishbowl is not profitable.  Bottom line is I can live with out the York Show. 

OK, I'm taking my ball and going home.

quote:

There are TCA shows that are not as big as York that prosper. They have shows and let the general public attend a couple hours after the members get free reign of the show.

There are even TCA shows that let the general public in right from the start.
Do any of these shows have people traveling across the country to attend?

I am sorry than some folks think the responses from some of us are too pat. Folks have to realize that most of these suggestions have been made time and time again.  And people should realize that the York train show is run by the Eastern Division, not the national TCA organization. The show was never planned as a recruitment tool for the TCA, but if it gets some people to join, great!

From GG-1fan's perspective, the York show seems to center around the dealer halls. That's fine for him. From my perspective (and most of my friends) the York show is centered around the member halls. One of my friends won't even set foot in the orange hall.  (To each their own).

Honestly, I would rather see the show shrink, then to see it become another show of nothing but dealers. The ninety minute drive I have to Springfield is at my limit for that type of show. As I have already posted, there is no way I would drive six hours to attend an open show, with all the table holders being dealers.

quote:

 I have not seen a lot of really expensive or new items in the member halls, mostly old stuff.

I wouldn't expect to see any new merchandise in the member halls. I am not certain why you wanted to measure expensive items. But if you didn't see any in the member halls, then I don't know where you were looking. Some of the collectors items can make the prices newly issued stuff look like chump change. (Not that I think high prices are a good thing. I think those high prices are a barrier to new folks becoming collectors)

If $50 is enough to discourage anyone from attending the best train meet in the country twice a year, my suggestion would be to find another hobby like maybe collecting bottle caps. Younger people interested in the model train hobby are just not there as in the past. They may find an interest in Thomas but it soon fades for electronics and action figures. And those ones that are, probably are more interested in operating newly made merchandise of which is in a minority at York.  The numbers of member sellers with 1 or more tables in the other halls are certainly in the numeric majority and I'm sure would not be happy with any tax rules.

Rich

I think that you are completely missing the point.  The the vast majority of the members in the member halls (the table holders) are not in business at all.  It is like being a seller at a flea market, or having a garage sale or yard sale.  It is something they do a couple of times a year.  Requiring them to wade through and fill out all of the paperwork and submit the various registration fees to get the tax ID number to be able to sell would deter them, and on top of all of that, there is the book-keeping and paperwork they would be required to do on the other end of the sales.  An occasional seller is not going to go through the hassle.  I know I wouldn't, and I am an occasional table-holder in the member halls, and I am not in the business of selling trains for a living.

Andy

I am not missing the point at all.  Two years ago, I had to get a PA sales tax license just to sell my book at an event that was a one-shot thing.  This is not the first time I had to get a license.  Years ago I got one to sell a product for a business enterprise that my uncle and I operated through mail order that included Pa sales.  After my uncle died, there was nothing to sell and the business was concluded as was my license.  It is very easy to deal with the sales tax today compared to what I had to do previously.  I pay quarterly and the form is done on-line.  It takes about 15 minutes tops as long as you've kept track of sales as you go along.  You list gross sales (which you already have kept for federal income tax purposes) and some other minor information if it is relevant.  The form calculates your liability and you have a discount if you pay within a certain time period.  To suggest for incidental sales that this is onerous is ridiculous--it may be inconvenient, but, hey, there's a lot in life that is inconveniencing for us all.  That doesn't mean that we end it all.  No registration fee.

I KNOW many would not be happy with paying sales tax.  For some, who deliberately don't pay federal or state income tax on their sales, the requirement of making a sales tax return provides a nexus for a federal or state audit of their operations.  What may be onerous is not the sales tax requirement, but rather the record-keeping for federal and state income tax when they have to keep a tally of what they paid for the stuff they eventually sell.  If they bought a train set at a garage sale and re-sell it at at TCA event, there is income from that transaction.

The reason that the OGR people don't take off the negative comments on here is because they also don't like the way that the York meet is run. I say, if you don't like it the way it is, don't go. Why do we have to go thru this crap every 6 months?

Both of these examples are of ongoing for-profit business activities and require the sales tax license because you were selling to the public.  York is a private event, and in the member halls the dealing is member-to-member (all private transactions), not dealer-to-member like in the dealer halls (and all the dealers in the dealer halls are required to collect sales tax and have the appropriate tax license).  The point is that members in the member halls are not engaging strictly in business activity - it is as much social activity as anything else, and this is why the tax arrangement with the state is what it is now.  I, like all of the other member table-holders I know, do not want to give the state reason to revisit the arrangement that the TCA has with them with regards to this meet.  If I had to have a tax license, I would not bother getting a table at all, and I would bet money that the majority of member table-holders feel the same way, and I am not a betting man.

Andy

OP: why dont you ask the guy that started this thread?

First, when I attend York I do go the member halls as well as dealer halls.  I am not going to drive 250 miles just to go to one hall. The issues here were whether it was onerous for these smaller member vendors to go through sales tax regulations if the event was made public, and whether that fact would discourage those vendors from ever attending again or going out of the business.  I don't think it is from my other responses on here as well as personal experience.  I am willing to pay the sales tax for a purchase from a member vendor just as I would pay to a dealer.  And the requirements for Pa sales tax reporting is minimal.

Second, when I mentioned that new merchandise was primarily in the dealer halls, that was not to disparage the other halls selling used stuff or collector' items.  In fact, I have walked away from member halls, having spent more money for used things because I am interested in old stuff--I run strictly traditional; no digital.  That statement, taken out of context here, was to illustrate that if I have to pay sales tax on new expensive stuff in dealer's halls that I don't find burdensome, I certainly don't find it burdensome in member's halls, regardless of how much or what I may buy there.

What I've gotten out of this so far. 

Only a select few are entitled to their opinions.  Everyone that wants to change the York show is wrong and should not comment.

The York event is a private event and only members are not supposed to  be tax.

Guest of members are not members, but they can slip through the loop hole.

Cell phones were bad, now they are good.

Back packs are bad.

Running into people with a Strollers is bad, but running over someone with a wheel chairs are OK.

The only opinions that matter are the opinions of TCA members that only like the member halls and plan their lives around York. 

People are afraid of change.

If you don't like it stay home.  That was the best on yet.

quote:

The issues here were whether it was onerous for these smaller member vendors to go through sales tax regulations if the event was made public, and whether that fact would discourage those vendors from ever attending again or going out of the business.

Two people have replied that they would not get tables if they had to deal with the PA tax department. I don't think anybody has posted that they wouldn't mind, and would continue to hold a member table if they had to file with the PA tax department. 

Did I skim over those responses?

quote:

Running into people with a Strollers is bad, but running over someone with a wheel chairs are OK.

Having been to York before the stroller ban was institutued, I am fairly positive that this was not the primary reason strollers were banned.

I think it was more about people tripping and falling over strollers, possibly injuring both the person falling and the child. When the ban as instituted, small, low, lightweight unbrella strollers were popular. I witnessed a few close calls.

As was pointed out by Jmiller320, there has been change:

Cell phones were banned, now they are allowed

Photography was completely banned, now some photography is allowed.

The show was changed from two days to three days.

TCA members are free to make suggestions for change

They shouldn't be upset if others disagree, nor should they be upset if the changes are not made.

As far as I know, the opinions expressed here are those of individuals, nobody is speaking as an offical representative of the Train Collectors Association or the Eastern Division.

quote:

The issue is whether opening-up the event to the general public might increase interest in trains and help augment membership in the TCA.

I have two answers:

1 - I don't think so. There are plenty of open shows for the general public, and there is little at the York train show to entire someone who isn't already interested in toy and model trains.

2 - not every TCA function has to be used for recruitment. the TCA is allowed to conduct events that are for the members. 

quote:

Train Collectors Association Mission Statement:
"To develop an appreciation of and to preserve an important segment of history - Tinplate Toy Trains - through research, education, community outreach, fellowship, establishment of collecting standards, and to promote the growth and enjoyment of collecting and operating toy, model and scale trains."

As to the first point made by Burfle that in his opinion opening up the event to the general public would not increase interest in trains or augment membership in the TCA, I can respect that opinion even though I really can't dispute it at this juncture since it has not even been tried.

As to the second point that not every TCA function is a recruitment tool, I can certainly agree with that proposition.  But can the York event be so? The Mission Statement quoted by Burfle says it all when it says that the TCA serves "...to promote the growth and enjoyment of collecting and operating toy, model and scale trains."  Nowhere does it say that it only applies among its members--that is the important point here!

I find this so difficult to appreciate.  If some of these member sellers do not have a computer or know how to operate one, that's OK.  To fill out the form manually as I had done years ago takes maybe about 35 minutes (also includes the time to paste on a stamp and lick the self-addressed envelope).  You don't need a tax attorney or H& R Block to do a simple Pa sales tax return in the situation we are discussing, believe me!  I think much of the dispute on this issue is not done from actual knowledge in having had to file returns in these situations; but just a general distaste to do so regardless of how little effort there really is.

LOL.  I am very sure that anyone who might be subject to pay sales taxes would threaten that they would not get tables if they had to do so, just as much as someone might say they will go out of business if the minimum wage were raised.  Why? Because nobody likes to pay taxes or money nor do what they consider to be extra work. But when everything is said and done, if people want to stay in business or, in this case, remain involved in the hobby--not for the money necessarily, they will still set up a table at York.  And if they don't, then they can sell their stock to others who will.

These points can be debated ad infinitum, as is the case prior to EVERY York event, with the same outcome; York comes and goes. Attendance goes up and down, both negative and positive comments are made after each event. As far as I know, this may be the only private TCA event, which is run by the Eastern Division of the TCA. Suggestions can and should be made to Eastern Division directors. Do Eastern Division board members follow this forum? Probably, I have seen some replies regarding the tax agreement posted here

I am one who joined TCA to attend York. I really don't have much interest in old tin plate trains beyond the history and preservation of that history. The only post war trains I have are the remnants of what my dad had during my youth. I certainly would hope that TCA would expand its attention to modern equipment, but change comes slowly.

I will continue in the hobby and attendance at York until I am no longer able, or the meet folds. I also would not have a problem doing the paperwork involved with the taxes. Do I think opening to the public would improve York? I think not. What I would like to see is for guests to be able to return, as some have no plans to join TCA, but would still like to attend York as guests. Over the years, I have taken many friends to York as guests, and some have joined and others have not.

Don

There is a big difference between negative comments that are just plain negative and those that are really constructive criticism to improve the situation.  I suppose if we have a disagreement with the way our government is being run, one might suggest that we just leave and go elsewhere.  But if we are concerned enough to suggest changes that could make the situation better, why not discuss them?