Official York Attendance in Oct. now up.

Well GG1fan, Taxes killed the Billy Budd show.

The answer to that, and a whole lot more about the York Meet, is contained in the York Meet Primer.  The link is in the Meet Primer thread in the Featured Topics section at the top of this forum.

Sorry I have to throw the BS Flag on that comment Eddie.

The Billy Budd show died long before York expanded its days. Most vendors moved to shows on the opposite side of 83 to avoid taxes, according to sellers I talked to at the time. Since York expanded to the extra day and a string of rotten weather ocurred, all the bandit meets are now shells of what they once were.

Rich

I don't think that opening it to the public would cause an increased interest in trains because Greenberg holds train shows at the very same venue, and yet they are a fraction of the size of the York Meet (half of the Orange Hall).  And Greenberg advertises.  If an open show were as great as some try to make it out to be, I would expect the York Greenberg shows to be bigger than they are.  People who have a serious interest in trains will eventually hear about York and seek it out.  I heard about York in hobby shops, in the magazines and online long before I joined.  As for membership, opening it to the public would more likely result in a drastic decrease in membership.  I have seen many on this very forum state that the only reason they joined TCA was to go to York, and I have heard people at York say the same out loud.  It would be delusional to think that those people would maintain membership if they could reap the only benefit they cared about without it.

IMHO, A far better way to recruit would be for the Eastern Division to set up an informational booth at the York Greenberg shows (and perhaps others, like Timonium and the WGH on Tour shows) to both promote the museum in Strasburg and the benefits of membership, including the York Meet (if they don't already).  And as was mentioned before, a less expensive paperless membership would be a great way to go to help bring in (or back) people that are turned off by the rising costs associated with the printing and mailing of the publications.  Events at the museum would be another avenue.  There are a lot of other, less invasive ways to promote the hobby and recruit new members than by tampering with a very successful world-class meet.

York didn't grow to the size it is by accident.  And experimenting with something that is working is more likely to harm it than help it.  It will evolve, but it must do so in a well-thought-out natural, organic fashion as has happened with the recent rules changes.

Andy

quote:

 I certainly would hope that TCA would expand its attention to modern equipment, but change comes slowly.

Off topic, but I wonder how folks feel about the most recent issue of the TCA quarterly. I thought there was material geared to operator / modern era fans.

By the way I am interested in stuff up to around 1994, and have a few pieces that are even newer.

quote:

LOL.  I am very sure that anyone who might be subject to pay sales taxes would threaten that they would not get tables if they had to do so, just as much as someone might say they will go out of business if the minimum wage were raised.

Wow, you cannot back up your earlier statement, so the folks who say they will stay away are being disingenuous

I can assure you, I won't get a PA tax number, nor would I knowly sell my trains to a reseller who would. My NYS tax number is enough to deal with.

You are right--I cannot back up what any person threatens to do should they have to start keeping track of sales for tax purposes.  But I seriously question self-serving statements like that from people who simply have a general aversion to taxes to begin with.  What would anyone expect them to say?  No one wants to pay taxes and people always complain about regulations and paperwork before they even examine how easy and virtually effortless it might be to report it.  Now, I don't know what's involved in New York or California when it comes to reporting requirements, but the York event is not in those states--it is in Pennsylvania.  Reporting sales from York twice a year on a Pa sales tax form is no big deal--and I speak from experience insofar as having had to do the paperwork on a quarterly basis for my incidental sales of books.  I think people today are just sick and tired of government intrusion into their lives, and I can appreciate that as a general principle.  But that is not a rationale to suggest that reporting requirements are so onerous when they really are not.  Look, nobody wants to pay sales taxes--buyers, sellers, you, me, and probably everyone else.  I don't want to pay income taxes either, but I realize that if I didn't as well as if others didn't, it might jeopardize the existence of this country which would not serve us individually.  My interest in this thread is not to impose sales taxes or reporting requirements on people--it is to try to make the York event  a means to increase membership in the hobby generally and membership in the TCA specifically by making the event more accessible to the general public.  But people who have a good thing going for them in terms of avoiding sales taxes quite naturally have a self-interest in keeping things as they are.  The question is whether one's personal selfish interest in that regard should trump the hobby's and the TCA's fight for survival in the future.  Now, I have no quarrel with people who disagree that opening up the York event to the public will increase membership, even though that option has not been tried yet.  But I do think an argument that is based on the onerous effect of tax reporting requirements for vendors and payment of sales tax by buyers is disingenuous.  There are plenty of vendors out there who love the hobby and are not going to make a bi-annual reporting of sales detract from it.  It is slightly inconvenient maybe, but the minimal paperwork is certainly not enough to end it all.  Like I said before, some people have general notions about tax reporting requirements from speculation (like someone who suggested that one has to pay a fee to get a sales tax number, etc.) or even from actual experience in other jurisdictions, but have never really examined what PA requirements are like.  Go on-line to the Pa Department of Revenue's website and see what the actual procedure is.  If you still feel that those reporting requirements are a deal-breaker for you at York, then I suppose you could go elsewhere for your sales of merchandise or sell out your inventory to another person who is willing to fill out the PA sales tax form.

"I can assure you, I won't get a PA tax number, nor would I knowly sell my trains to a reseller who would".

You just backed up what GG1 stated.  "Wow, you cannot back up your earlier statement, so the folks who say they will stay away are being disingenuous." 

quote:

You just backed up what GG1 stated.  "Wow, you cannot back up your earlier statement, so the folks who say they will stay away are being disingenuous." 

I don't follow you. How so?

I would be disingenuous if I did go out and get a PA tax number.

This is just painful.

quote:

Bottom line is York could allow the dealer halls to be open to the public and the member halls could stay member only.  It would only take a differnt color of badge.  The doors are already staffed. 

I believe that the arrangement with the PA tax department is an all or nothing proposition.

I still don't follow you how I backed up GG1-fan's statement. But that's OK.

Did I use "disingenuous" improperly?

York is perfectly accessible to the general public.  Anybody who wants to go can join at the door and go right in, or they can get a member to sign them in as a one-time guest if they want to "try before they buy."  The TCA already made the event as accessible as it can ever be by removing the two-signature sponsorship rules for new membership.

I have yet to see any kind of good explanation on how opening the meet to the general public (i.e. removing the membership requirement) will result in an increase membership in the TCA.  As the old saying goes, why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?

Andy

Sorry but Joe blow with his kids on a hey lets go to the train show and see if anything is interesting on a Saturday afternoon is not going to join the TCA and pay the dues if they are not already heavy in the hobby.  We need to attract newbies not scare them away.

open Saturdays to the public, get some interest going in young kids and adults, make Saturdays worth the vendors and exhibitors  time.  Leave Thursday and Friday for TCA members. 

Really how many TCA members go on Saturday anyway?  How full are the halls compared to Thursday and Friday. When I was going regularly I never went Saturdays, it was travel day to Strasbourg or home.

That's bull doo-doo, Eddie! I'm one of the "OGR people" and I'm perfectly content with the way the Eastern Division runs their excellent meet. Biggest and best in the world, as far as I know.

jmiller320. I know, I was there, & did the Billy Budd shows. The taxes killed it no matter what you think.

This is the thread that never ends 

Yes it goes on and on my friends

someone started posting it a long time ago

And here it is again!

Yes it's the post that never ends...................................................................

Couldn't resist; no offense Eddie.

Don

Oh come on, Eddie.  He (jmiller320) admits that he's been to a grand total of FOUR York shows.  How dare you question the depth of his understanding regarding York show history?  The other rabble rouser in this thread (GG-1fan) says he remembers going to a York show ONCE so he is also a qualified expert on how the show should change for the benefit of all.  As an aside, a real fan of the GG1 should know that there is no hyphen between the GG and the 1.

Meanwhile, I've gotten a refill so I'm ready for page 5 of this thread.

quote:

Meanwhile, I've gotten a refill so I'm ready for page 5 of this thread.

Gee.... I dunno......... I'm getting kind of tired.

Maybe I'll make some Popcorn too, and kick back with a Jack and Ginger.

quote:

 I do think that it with some PR, the Pa tax authorities might be willing to segregate the members-only halls from the others.

They are just as likely to decide that the Eastern Division is locked into the York Fairgrounds, and decide to void the whole deal.

(My popcorn isn't ready yet)

Bob, with all do respect, I hope you don't have to go to another bucket of pop corn. We have already had to much of another kind of "corn" going on here.

In a strange way, it is really pretty funny when folks who know so little of the history or why the current formula has worked so well for so many years want to change it. They should just do us all a favor, don't come if you have so many issues with it. Does it really make you feel better to go on and on with why you want to change it?  Reminds me of this.

I keep waiting for someone--anyone--to come up with even one logical reason for why the York Meet needs to change to a significant degree, but haven't found one in these four pages of discussion (virtually all of which has been written time and again in past years and in nearly identical threads).

Again

I think this sums it up...

Paul Edgar on the Public vs Private reason.

Originally Posted by superwarp1:

Know why you rarely see young kids at the York Meet?  Because looking at rows and rows of trains on tables doesn't doesn't excite them like it does for us seasoned model railroaders.  I took my three kids to Greenberg's Shows when they were young and they hated looking at the trains on the tables.  What they liked was the operating layouts, the toys, dolls and games that were on display.  

As Gary mentioned above, a family "is not going to join the TCA and pay the dues if they are not already heavy in the hobby".  And that's the key here.

The TCA itself was created by people who were already heavily into the hobby, to exchange ideas and trains amongst them.  The York Meet is not a venue to get people into the hobby, it's for those who already are.  I've taken several people to the Meet as a guest, a few signed up and a few had no further interest because their interest in the hobby was light to begin with.

Think of it as a progressive level of interest in the hobby.  

Speaking for myself as an example, I grew up loving model trains as they were in the family before I was born.  But the hobby shop was the only place I knew of to see trains, and that's where the interest in the hobby started to blossom, at the hobby shop level.  Soon I found out about the Greenberg Shows and I thought I was in Heaven!  The hook was in as I saw more trains than I could have imagined.  As a young adult, my cousin introduced me to the TCA as a guest to the April 1981 York Meet.    Whoa!!  I couldn't wait to join so I could come to this event!  And I wasn't aware of the other perks of membership.

I believe the manufacturers / importers, hobby shops, along with each and every one of us is responsible to growing the hobby, not the York Meet.  Seeing model trains in the mainstream of life, such as toy stores and department stores as Lionel does or tv commercials is what sparks the initial interest for kids.  And then we need to promote but not be overbearing in cultivating the interest.  From there they'll discover hobby shops, public shows, publications and the OGR Forum and the TCA Meets all over the country, including the York Meet.

Once they get that far and are really truly interested in the hobby, it's more likely they would become TCA members.  I have met so many friends and seen so many layouts that I wouldn't have had the chance to see since becoming a TCA member and an OGR Forum member.  But that's me, I'm just crazy about trains!

I just don't know where this "public" would come from?  Most everyone that can attend that are heavily into the hobby that come from any distance already do attend.  People looking for a day out aren't going to be packing up the kids to see trains on tables.  They want to see them in action or look at other toys or electronics.

It doesn't matter to me if the York Meet is ever open to non-members, that's the Eastern Division's decision.  It's their event and wouldn't prevent me from having as much fun as I do now seeing all the trains and all the friends that attend.

I don't think the York Meet or the TCA are going anywhere in our lifetime.

York is a private event and I understand that. However and NO DISRESPECT meant just my opinion. If you want to attract newbies, family's and kids open it for a day, PA tax ID and all... TCA is not attracting  new blood at least in my division, I'm 50 years old and I'm  often one the youngest guys at an event. 

Oh well I'm not an Eastern TCA member, its just a suggestion maybe its time to revisit their arrangements with the dept. of Revenue.  Membership and demographics are always a topic of discussion in my division and we are far from perfect. I love trains but I relate this to the demise of the dinosaurs.

there are plenty of public shows and the the wgh train shows to "attract the newbies,familys and kids......some people just dont get it why york is not a public show.oops i meant meet. martye explains it pretty good for about the 53rd time.-jim

Bravo! If they want to watch trains running and browse manufacturers they can take in a WGH show.

Rich

While C. W. gets his popcorn, let me step in for a minute.

York is not meant to be a recruiting tool, and many of us do not want it to become one.

York is a closed event - one of the benefits of membership in the organization.

It's one of the few venues where a member can offer his excess trains to fellow members without the hassles of sales tax - a rarity in the train show world - at least in the northeast.

I fail to see how taking away this member benefit and also clogging up the parking areas and the halls with the general public will help increase numbers in TCA in the long run.

So I'd suggest that the recruiters put their efforts into thinking up other imaginative methods to increase membership - but not by taking away one of the important benefits of membership for many of us.

Jim

Well said Jim, I could not agree more with you.

I agree with you Jim Policastro & I truly respect your opinion as your a man of wisdom. I've turned myself into the OGR Piñata...

And hopefully This is the end.

Mr. Policastro I am somewhat new member to the TCA (2 years) but I agree with you a 100%.

Opening the show to the public is not going to help the cause of the TCA.

You might get one or two new members but I would be surprised if there would be more than ten.

 If you did get 10, out of this 10 you may wind up with 1 or 2 that become members for  years to come.

I don't think that any supplier or private table is going to be heading back home after the show is over with wheelbarrows loads of additional cash because the public was invited.

Anybody that is involved with the great hobby most likely has joined the TCA and they make plans to take time off from work or a break from retirement and travel to York for the show.

Walking thru the show  finding a good deal on an item or find something new for their layout or collection at their own leisure, meeting friends and making new ones is what makes this show a great one.

I can't see changing the rules is going to save the TCA from ****ation !!!

Gee wiz Bob.  You ask "How dare you question the depth of his understanding regarding York show history?" Who do you think you are.  Unlike you I do do a little research before I open my mouth.  From a report published in 3-train in 1992.  From Monday through Thursday afternoon are the non-affiliated “Bandit” or Hotel Meets. The oldest of these seems to be in its “death throes.” The Billy Budd appears to have been the victim of a greedy Hotel Administration and an over-zealous Township Department of Revenue.

Four times at York was enough for me.  Maybe in a few years when I'm as old as you are and stick my head in the sand, maybe I'll consider going back to York.  Maybe by then the member halls will have post modern trains that I'm interested.  I'm happy to be a rabble rouser if that's what you want to dub people that have the ability to think outside the train loop.

You have the nerve to question someone's screen name because they put a dash in a name they made up.  If your going to give out your opinion on maters you know nothing about, don't use capitals with bold letters to get you point across.  Capital letter word are considered yelling and that is not being civil.  Just because you don't agree with people that don't see the world through your rose colored glasses.

Passenger Train Collector.  You want to know what is really funny, but sad/  It's closed minded people that only think about themselves and not the good of the Organization.  One day when you harvest all the corn and look around you will wonder where are all the members?  You and your sidekicks can enjoy your show all you want.  The membership is in decline and one day it will be too late.  Keep rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.