Official York Attendance in Oct. now up.

I was away from my computer all day and just got home.  I had to respond so some of you could get a goon nights sleep.

Perhaps, but it's a long way off and it will have virtually nothing to do with the York Meet, the Eastern Div. of the TCA, or the TCA itself. It's really more a matter of change/evolution/regression, or however one chooses to view it, in the broader society as a whole. Those who have been with this hobby for a long time will, I believe, understand what I mean.

Maybe you missed this from a previous post, from a past TCA official:

"The meet can never , repeat never be opened to the public because of Dept of Pa Internal Revenue.  We are not allowed to make any changes because of the end result to the sales tax issue.  Everyone of the member tables would have to get a Pa tax Id and submit tax.  We can not have a split hall arrangement where some (dealer halls) collect tax and others do not.  So no opening to the public period.  Sat hours could be altered but that is for Eastern Div folks."

Poking a hornets nest (PA Dept of revenue) could lead to one being stung.

I believe most people that attend York do so for the thrill of adding to their collection or the hope of finding something other than new to operate and getting a good deal. The member halls contain all the items they may be interested in. If you want a hard to find item, York is the place you will find it. York is the mecca for used train items, period.

I have 2 local TCA shows in my area and they are sparsely attended, unlike the 80's when stuff was still coming out of the attics. I also have 3 Greenburg shows in my area and frankly, they all suck. I can ocassionaly find something for the layout but that's about it. Any collecible pieces present at Greenburg are far overpriced. At York you can usually find more than one example at sometimes markedly different prices. Granted, at Greenburg there are more families present, but kids seem more interested in the layouts not the table items. I tend to believe the families are there just to give the kids something to do. Sure, someday the collecting hobby will probably die out and so will the train hobby as kids today have no way to be "hooked" into trains. Back in the 50's maybe half the kids I knew got trains for Christmas and went on from there. Today there is too much competition from electronics etc.

Rich

 

The meet can never , repeat never be opened to the public because of Dept of Pa Internal Revenue.  We are not allowed to make any changes because of the end result to the sales tax issue.  Everyone of the member tables would have to get a Pa tax Id and submit tax.  We can not have a split hall arrangement where some (dealer halls) collect tax and others do not.  So no opening to the public period.  Sat hours could be altered but that is for Eastern Div folks.

 

Paul Edgar

Past National (TCA) President

 

Jmiller

I really think there is one thing you could do.  Start your own show.  Open it to the public and invite them in. 

I don't think anyone here is unwilling to grow the membership but the provisions and agreements are in place that prevents the EDTCA York meet from being open to the public.  The reason was given several times.

I suggest if you need to know the details of the agreement contact the EDTCA directly and maybe they can explain it.  I don't have all the details but we have been told on more than one occasion that this is the reason the meet will stay private. 

York is one meet out of hundreds of shows and meets.  I really doubt it will save the hobby by opening to the fickle public anyways. But I see you are from Maryland...are you part of the EDTCA chapter?  If so run for leadership and forge ahead.

Great suggestion Marty.  Did you read all the post on here?  No one ever suggested opening up the member halls to the public.  There are already separate halls where tax is supposed to be collected and halls where it is not required.  I now realize that I along with others that suggested their ideas on how to make the TCA York show grow are not tax attorneys or CPA like all off the posters on here that can not accept change.  

I guess we both need to read all the posts then.

I don't see anyone here claiming to be Tax Attorneys and CPA but we've been through this enough time to know the reasons that were told to us, which we then posted here.  It seems from Paul Edgar's words that any change that would allow the public in regardless of the halls would cause issue with the agreement.

I don't think you will find the definitive answer of why or why not the meet can be public, even in certain halls to satisfy what you want to accomplish.

It takes one man jmiller320!  Be that man.  Join forces with the other who see your point of view and overthrow the tyranny that is the EDTCA York meet and throw the gates open.

Seriously though, I suggest you contact the EDTCA folks.  I'm sure they could give you a more qualified answer than any of us here, explain the tax agreements, and the why and why nots.  And make that change!

quote:

 No one ever suggested opening up the member halls to the public. 

Here is the first place I found where opening the show to the public was suggested. Where does it say to only open the dealer halls (I highlighted part)?

quote:

The highpoint of attendance at York was IIRC about 15,000. IMO, it will be on a steady decline until the meet can be opened up to everyone and despite what the ED says it can be.

Now I am going to play with the dog.

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."--George Bernard Shaw

"What people resist is not change, but loss."--Ronald A. Heifetz

"If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change."--Wayne Dyer

I am not inspired by your quotes about change.
Sometimes change is good, other times not so much.

As has been suggested, I think some of these agents for change might look into starting their own show, or maybe setting up a display at their local library, or maybe give a talk at a school. Its just too easy to tell someone else what they should do.

Back to the dog.

"Here's to the crazy ones.  This misfits.  The rebels.  The troublemakers.  The round pegs in the square holes.  The ones who see things differently.  They're not fond of rules.  And they have no respect for the status quo...they change things.  Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do."--Apple, Inc.

GG-1

I think you too should go to the EDTCA and see what you can do to initiate "change".  Lot's of quotes piled up there in the last few posts.  Change can happen, if the terms setup allow it to.  So become part of the solution and contact the EDTCA and see what you can do.  Maybe just maybe you have an idea that no one ever thought of in terms of getting around the agreement made.

You and jmiller obviously feel very strongly about opening the meet up to the public to make it better in your eyes.  The EDTCA offices and membership is the only place where that change can happen.  I think it's time to contact them. 

I think I've said all I can.  It's really nit up to us or the members of this board but truly to the EDTCA, it's officials, and the membership.

And while I personally don't care either way, I just presented the reasons why they haven't changed.  Good Luck.

Here is the Contact List for EDTCA folks.  And the Board of Directors.  They meet at the York Meet and it's open to the membership.  Perhaps you can go and talk to them directly.

To all those who think they can do a better job of organizing and running the world's greatest toy train meet:

You want change? Then become the instrument of change and get your butt(s) in action. But I gotta tell you, it sure ain't gonna happen by venting on an online toy train forum.

Famous responses:

The people in Genoa, Italy:  "The world is flat!"

Columbus:  "No, I don't think so.  I'm willing to find out."

The people:  "We can never, ever, get to the moon.  If God wanted us to go there, he would have allowed it."

Neal Armstrong:"One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."

The people: "The car will never, ever, replace the horse."

NSCAR announcer:  "Gentlemen, start your engines!"

"Impossible only means you haven't found the solution yet."--Anon.

I don't beleive that anyone here is opposed to change if that change is for the better.  What I have been saying all along (and others) is that I beleive that the changes being proposed with regards to the York meet would result in change for the worse.

I have yet to see any sound reasoning that opening the meet or even part of the meet to the public would be good for the TCA (you know, the people who volunteer their time and hard work to make the TCA meet as great as it is).  Just saying that it will somehow magically grow the hobby is not reasoning but more of a re-hash of the plot of Field of Dreams ("If you build it, they will come...").  Considering that the number of open-to-the public shows and meets vastly outnumbers the number of closed, members-only meets (in fact, I cannot think of even one other closed, members-only meet), I would ask why they are not growing the hobby if being open to the public is the magic ingredient?

I am really beginning to suspect that the desire to open York to the public is not out of some altruistic motive to grow the hobby, but more of a selfish desire to get into the world's greatest train meet without having to pay dues to the TCA.

Andy

LOL, I guess I should be inspired now.

I thought I made it clear.

I don't want the show opened to the public, nor do plenty of other folks. (See Jim's post)

I like having a show where I don't have to deal with the tax man.

I like having a show where I and my fellow table holders can put out things with reduced concern with the casual visitor touching stuff with dirty, greasy hands from the junk food they just finished.

As I have posted in the past, when I am at a public show, I put out stuff that I don't mind having handled by the general public.
When I have a table at York, I bring stuff that is targeted to my fellow collectors (sorry operators).

"We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible."--Vince Lombardi

"Only Nixon can go to China"  Spock

"It's not a lie if you believe it"   George Costanza

BS quotes will not influence anyone.

Rich

"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof."  --John Kenneth Galbreath (economist)

The best antidote:  Look elsewhere on the forum--you DO have a choice!

I completely agree with not opening the show to the public and keeping the meet the way it is. I have been going to the show with my father since he joined TCA in 1997 and when I was younger it was an exciting thing for me every fall and spring to take a day off school and go to York. Even today as was stated I plan and so does my brother and father to go every April and October. So yes I do fear change and it is human nature. Maybe I am the minority at 26 years old. I actually enjoy this. I as a young child learned very important Life Skills while attending the York Meet.

And finally:

"He who rejects change is the architect of decay.  The only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery."--Harold Wilson (former British Prime Minister)

Ahhh, Harold, not so!  RIP TCA

"The secret of genius is to carry the spirit of the child into old age."--Aldous Huxley

Here's another truism:

"When bad things happen, that's change too"

CW, allow me to add another truism. Some people believe that change just for the sake of change is good. Fortunately, in this case, from the amount of opinion posted to this topic, their viewpoint is supported by only a very small number (with little to no history of this meet). No matter how many quotes that are used to support their position, the number of decenters is miniscule and will have a zero impact on the way we have learned over the years to enjoy the world's best train meet.

And I suspect you're pretty close to being 100% right about that, Andy!

Whether or not the York Meet is open to the public would, in my opinion, have a negligible effect on "growing" the hobby and/or the TCA. Truth is, any impact realized would likely be negative for the TCA and the Eastern Div. as far as future meets are concerned.

Folks interested in "growing" the hobby need to look WAY beyond the York Meet, which is, and hopefully remains, a decent perk for TCA members and their families.

"Very often people embarking on such guesswork make the vulgar assumption that the lower the motives, the more likely they are to be authentic."--Christopher Hitchins (author, literary critic, and journalist)

"Your assumptions are your windows on the world.  Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in."--Isaac Asinov (writer and professor of biochemistry)

York is not an added bonus for you.  Some posters have already assumed that you're a member simply to get into the York meet, that's all.   

Why does it matter if he is a member only to go to York?

"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones."--John Maynard Keynes (economist).

quote:

"The problem is that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the people who are most certain of them."

“To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”  
―     Thomas Jefferson

We don't want the show open to the public.

Is it time to lock or delete this thread yet?