Basement Layout

Nice overall design -- some operation with good continuous run.

You'll have some reach issues because some turnouts are located far back from the "people area". A couple of questions:

1. What are the overall dimensions of your basement?

2. What are your future plans regarding locomotives?

Hello Matt,

The basement room is 18'10" by 13'10".  The door is causing some problems with placement of the baseboard.  I am concerned that some of the tracks may be too close and will cause some clearance problems.  I went ahead and uploaded the scarm file.  Dad wants to use gargraves flex track, but I was wondering if people have more success with sectional track when it gets to the point of placing track.

Dad is going to be running primarily tinplate Marx and some Lionel.  The longest engines he has would be a Lionel Santa Fe and a 2020Turbine. The largest Marx would be the Santa Fe and 333.  Most of the the other locos are smaller Atlantic type of Marx engines.

I thought of sneaking in an S gauge track for my American Flyer.

Well, I made some changes.  Here is an updated file.  I hope I don't have any radii that are too sharp.

Thanks to all the guys who are posting objects that I can import into SCARM.

Feel free to look it over and give any feedback.  Haven't decided on accessories to use, but many of them are Marx, and one American Flyer barrel loader.

First, Gargraves Flextrack is a good selection coupled with Ross turnouts....it provides you with "flexibility" for custom curves not available in market sectional curves.

Secondly, have you considered turning and crossing in front of your entrance door for a round-the-room layout utilizing a lift bridge or drop section for entry. You can get a lot of railroad and accessories in a round-the-wall operation within a easy reach. 

Just a couple of thoughts. You have a really good layout area.

This is very nice, would like to attempt this in my basement.  Can you give me the size of each section (3) and the size of the curves used.  Also can't open up your new design; can you supply in the format used on your first layout?

Thank you.

Kelpieflyer,

    Very nice layout design, I like it and it should be user friendly.  Sense your dad is a Tin Plate guy, I suggest FasTrack or Tubular Conventional for your track.  FasTrack will

accommodate all your fathers Tin Plate, and Conventional trains also.  The new FT Command Control switches would be real nice on this layout design. 

PCRR/Dave

Very nice looking layout.  I like how you didn't try and cram in as much track as you could.

--Greg

Dewey and AGHRMatt gave you some very useful comments, I use Gargraves tin plate phantom track with Gargraves and Ross switches, Gargraves track is not hard to form to desired curvature, I laid out arced shapes for 28, 30, 32,34 and 36 inch radii on 1/2 plywood and cut them out with a jigsaw(scholl) saw. Use can layout these arcs using a 3 foot wood ruler or 1 by 2 inch white pine strip, nail on one end and number two wood pencil the opposite end, this is a homemade beam compass. Once the arc segments are cut out bend the track to this radius, remember this radius is the inside radius not the centerline radius, you can adjust these cut radii by adding or subtracting this radius the distance from the tie edge to the track center. 

I recommend a manual powered cutoff tool,such as a Dremel tool, for cutting the arced track ends perpendicular and square, I also use Tortouse switch motors mounted under the table. You may also consider roadbed, I use Midwest cork, to minimize noise. Gargraves 3/4 long phillips head screws are used to attach the track with this roadbed to the plywood wood deck.

Watch your track radii, some locomotives and cars have specified operating track radii, using inadequate radii can cause derailments because the coupled joints and coupled cannot slew(pivot) correctly, this also applies to the truck centers on the locomotives and coupled joints with the cars.

I modified the large layout that I am building it was a crawl under, being a senior citizen my knees are an issue, therefore I modified the layout by installing three lift up hinged gates for entry.

You are off to a good start, many of us have learned that issues had arisen in building our layouts and changes were necessary, there are many good people on this Forum who will give you sound advice, my advice is to keep on seeking this advice.

John 

Dewey,

Thanks for the advice.  I never really thought of that and it would be a good way to get more track laid.  I'll see what Dad thinks of it.

Does anyone know how the Ross turnouts would work with the older Marx engines?  Many of them have a wide drive gear on the engine and this does cause derailments on Gargraves switches.

One way to watch your radius when designing using flex track is to make a circle of your minimum radius and move it along your curves.  As long as your track curve stays outside the circle you have not violated your minimum radius.

Jan

Forgot to say that I am using Gargraves flextrack and some Lionel switches that allow for the geared drive wheel on some of the engines to clear the switch.

This is very nice, would like to attempt this in my basement.  Can you give me the size of each section (3) and the size of the curves used.  Also can't open up your new design; can you supply in the format used on your first layout?

Thank you.

Hello Daylight,

I used the newest version of SCARM on this one.  I'll try and see if I can open it and save it with an older version.  I can upload a plan with dimensions later today.

Here is a jpeg of the layout.  For some reason, SCARM won't export the dimensions.  I had to print to pdf and then export a jpeg.

I am using SCARM 0.9.28 beta.  I can't install an older version of SCARM on my computer without messing up the new install.

Well, it sounds like I may have two problems with the turnouts.

I've been reading up on the Marx single reduction  (fat wheel) engines, and it turns out that they can only go through Marx switches.

1:  SCARM does not have any Marx switches in the track library.

2:  I may have to try and figure out how to modify a Lionel or Gargraves switch so a fat wheel Marx engine can make it through without messing up the switch for other engines.  Also, I heard that these engines will not make it through a Lionel crossover either.

Anyone have any ideas?

I made a few more changes, but I am concerned about the reach to the tracks over by the roundhouse. I've been trying to figure out how to have two separate mainlines, but I cannot make it fit.

the layout looks quite fine, and seems to me it would be interesting for running trains for a long time!

      I would consider adding a little island branching off, going towards the center of the room;  from just before arriving at the round house and have it be either a station or a small yard. I think you will have plenty of walk around "aisle room",

  that said, as it is now, your dandy layout DOES provide a good amount of room for about three chairs to do train running/leisure viewing. so you have a toss up situation......both win-win!

Hi Kelpie,

Do you want the track all wiggly or is it just a software learning curve thing with the flex track tool?

using the Tools>Toolbox>FlexTrack tool>You can put in straight length and hit straight button, then fix or enter radius and the arc angle and hit curve and fix after selecting an active flex track piece. That simulates cutting 37" inch pieces or bending them. If you hover the cursor over the sectional pieces, that data is displayed.

It is measured on center rail for Gargraves.

My first impression was to start with a point to point with an r-loop at each end. Then, create from there.

Give dad some graph paper and pencil and see what he comes up with.

Hey Moonman,

I don't want wiggly track, but your correct in that it is a result of my learning curve. I just started using SCARM lately. Thanks for the tips on the sectional track.

I did send Mixy a message  about creating a library for the Marx turnouts.  Dad has quite a few single reduction Marx engine that have wide drivers that can't go through Lionel or Gargraves switches without modifying the switch.  I did find a catalog of sorts and can measure the set of turnouts I have here.

Thanks for the comments.

Hi Kelpie -

I hope you have much success with your new layout.  I just wanted you to be aware of bending the Gargraves flex track.  It takes some practice, but there are some members on here who have figured it out and have commented on it.  Read what they have to say, because just picking it up and forming perfect curves the first time hardly ever happens.  I would suggest you pick up a few sections of flex track and practice before you buy your full quantity.  I have a lot of mechanical background experience, and I could never get one right and finally gave up and used Gargraves curved sections.  Just a heads up.  Good luck!

Mike

Measure the Marx switches and compare to Lionel O to see if one is close that you can use in the track plan.

Perhaps someone knows that already.

I measured the Marx switches I have and the Lionel 027 switches and they are very close.  I would imagine they would be close enough for flextrack.

Here's the layout with the 027 switches.

Do you need all that open space in the middle of the room?  You can make a trade off by extending your loops toward the middle of the room where you can have access on three sides.  Then you could lesson the space near the corners so you have easy access with out crawling under or over the layout to reach.

Forgive the crude drawing.  Just something to get some creative juices flowing.

Ron

Ron,

That's a good idea and something I haven't really thought about.  I don't think Dad needs all the room in the middle, so I'll see if I can steer him toward that.  It certainly makes sense.

I changed the layout a bit and put in some 027 curves to lessen the reach.  Also found that I had messed up the layers and fixed that too.

nice except for fact that main runs through a diverging switch rather then straight section

nice except for fact that main runs through a diverging switch rather then straight section

Sometimes a necessary evil in modeling.  Doing so may give the extra inches required to maximize the size of sidings, branches, etc.  I have one myself as a branch line departs the main to head toward my city.

Ron

Yeah, I tried to do something different with that, but we needed to put the siding where it was so Dad could use a large Marx freight terminal building he has.

push the  30 degree crosssing to right, and have runaround on other side.  This will open space on left to allow a 5 degree switch with siding

I am not sure how to do that since I am stuck with using Marx switches.  Many of the locos we have are single reduction Marx engines which have  the "fat" drive wheels.  We have to use Marx switches, or the engine will derail.

Well, I made a few more modifications.  Did some new measurements while I was down at Dad's last weekend.  The odd shaped wall on the bottom of the layout is actually a fireplace that is not used.  I added his Marx Freight terminal on the siding on the left side which is next to the door going into the train room.  All the switches were changed to Lionel 027, which are very close to the Marx switches he is using now.

He will likely build his own roundhouse, but it will be similar in size to the one on the layout.

Let me know what you all think about this iteration of the layout.  We both like it, but we may be missing something important.  Right now he has a 5 x 18 foot layout against the wall and he cannot reach anything in the middle or the far wall, so anything is better than what he has now.

There are still reach problems. The whole left side, the top right corner and the bottom right corner.

Does he want a new layout or would a Micro-Mark top-side creeper solve the problems?

If you make the track plan in Lionel 027 on one layer, you could then lay the Gargraves over top it on another layer, using it as a guide. Then delete the Lionel layer. That would help lose the wiggles.

Now a major issue- maybe the smallest that you can bend GG flex for a curve would be similar to an 031 FasTrack or an 33.65 center rail diameter according to GG specs for their sectionals.

The rail height of 027 curves will need to be raised to match GG track if you used the original curves and transitioned to GG.

Does Dad not want to use a 30"-38" table around the room with a 40" lift-out\up in front of the door?

That would solve reach and radius issues and let you have a dual main with the elements that you are considering now.

What birthday boy Dewey said...

Take a look at this- 38" wide around the room with the Atlas O 3RL double track Pratt truss bridge the lift-up.

http://shop.atlasrr.com/p-2306...russ-bridge-kit.aspx

Thanks for all your replies.  I think we'll need to go with the lift out bridge to keep the reach to a minimum.  Dad's back is in bad shape and I know he would not be able to use the top side creeper safely.

Thanks Carl for modifying the base a bit and showing where the bridge would go.  He has a 80 inch ceiling height, so I may remove a ceiling tile so he could use the bridge.

I'll take a stab at the modified baseboard and come up with a dual mainline setup using Lionel 027 as a separate layer to get the gargraves track bent to avoid all the wobbly track.

It doesn't need to be a bridge to get going, just a piece of wood with the track on it. You can a few examples by searching the forum and see the different ways to build it and the hinges or lift out setup.

If you space the track off of the wall side where you can, you can limit the reach to arms length with minimal bending.

I have revised the track plan again.  I think this one will stick.

Let me know what you think.  The tack at the top is going to be used for his Lionel trolley.

I plan on cleaning up all the funny squiggles in the track

I like the latest plan the best.  I will build an around the walls layout with some kind of lift up/out bridge in the entrance corner.  I do not want a large reach, and I don't care about being able to turn a whole train.  You can turn engines with this plan.

Russell,

That's looks really cool. there is still room for lots of scenic\accessory items. Ok, now for the bridge.

The 40" Atlas O double track or the new Lionel set of truss bridges will fit there for a 2 line crossing. Don't artificially squeeze the tracks when you can't make that happen. The Atlas O has 2 tracks with 4.5 center rail spacing. The bridge made for SCARM is the single track bridge. You could use 4 #317 bridges (2 for line) at any spacing that you like. Also, you need a short straight for both approaches so the trains won't hit the bridge.

if you build the layout using GG sectional, I'll convert it to flex track for you so you can have an accurate inventory (parts list)

Russell

When you begin to adjust for final track location regarding its proximity to the wall, allow room for building fronts, half trees,shrubs,etc[if that is one of your druthers?].

I really like your plan.

Russell,

I was thinking that you could simplify the layout design by using just the Gargraves library. The real catch that you have is using the Marx switches with the stubby 45° divergence.

matching that with GG 042 & 054 seems to work out for that last design as they are 45° sections and the radius and size fit the design. They can be cut from the flex. You can build whole layout with flex except for the switches. GG has transition pins. One should fit the Marx switches.

I mentioned the bridge spacing previously, that needs some forethought for track spacing that will depend on how you want to do that.

I saw your crossover in the center. The two stubby switches, didn't look right. It's a nasty little S. Also, you didn't have a cross back.

The solution is to move a switch to end on the curve(using 45° curves) and aim the thru straight towards the adjacent line and connect to the divergence of that switch on a straight. Hopefully, you enough switches to do this.

Also, note, as you engines won't be that sensitive, you can mix the 054 & 042 to get the right amount of turn or angle needed. (see bridge approach near door)

SCARM with ideas attached. Tracks are in yellow.

Hey Moonman,

Thanks for your help modifying the layout.  Especially the switching problems we would encounter.  I switched everything over to GG sectional track and the Marx switches.  As you can see, I cannot get it to all match up without using some flex track.

I put in a double bridge to solve the track width problem.  Looks like I may be able to stick with mostly sectional and only a small bit of flex.  Dad does have a layout now with all flex that he may want to reuse, although only the straight sections.

Let me know what you think.