Best Practices with modern Lionel Smoke Units in Legacy/TMCC engines

@LionelAG posted:

............................................

• What’s the real consequence of overfilling?
• ........................
• Is it okay to run the smoke units dry?  And is it best to shut the smoke unit off when it is out of smoke fluid or does it even matter?.......................................................

Are there any NoNo’s  for modern Lionel smoke units that I need to take into consideration?...........................

The consequence of overfilling is the same as if you overfill a drinking glass.  The fluid gets all over everything as it's quantity exceeds the volume of the smoke units fluid reservoir.  It's not fun to open up an engine just to clean smoke fluid mess off of everything inside.

Don't run the unit with the smoke unit activated if you don't intend to add fluid.  There is a mechanical switch to turn the smoke On or Off that overrides the ability to control it with the CAB-2 setting.  Setting this to "off" protects the smoke unit if you run without fluid.

Running with smoke "on" and not adding fluid will cause the resistor that provides the heat to burn out, it would need to be replaced if you ever want the engine to smoke again.  You will also have charred smoke wicking that will no longer work and will need to be replaced. 

It's not going to happen instantaneously if you happen to not notice immediately that the smoke output is diminished before you add some fluid, but it will happen if you make a habit of running it with no fluid.

-Dave

I've also heard - that if you've finished a session with the smoke unit on - to put a small amount (4-5 drops) of smoke fluid into the reservoir when you're finished your run, which helps to keep the wick moist so that it doesn't dry out.

FWIW, use Lionel Fluid until the warranty period is over. Lionel has been known to charge for warranty repairs because of this. Up to you of course. 

Find MTH engines out smoke the Lionel ones, especially at 16 or 17 volts. 18 volts may produce more smoke, we are always worried about incandescent bulb heat. As mentioned, make sure it doesn't run out of smoke fluid. 

Dry wick, whole dropper at once, etc.  You're basically looking at "how long it takes to saturate the wick".

As it saturates, the initial fluid volume maximum increases as the wick airspaces fill. But we're only talking seconds to half a minute; fill slow at first. Once wet, you can be a little faster. Filling to the brim I'd use more caution and rest time before running.

Some fluids aren't as safe as others for plastic/paints/boards or even some metals. Not to mention layout ground covers soaking if in.

Don't run them dry if on.  If you insist on it, revert to a track powered pw ni-chrome element. That can handle red hot and dry ok .

Thanks all for the responses!  Not anything hugely surprising in everyone's remarks.  Follow up questions for those deeply in the know:

• Does shutting of the smoke unit from Cab-2 really any different from shutting down the smoke unit from the manual switch on the locomotive?
• For regular/extended running, do most of you keep the smoke units off? 
• A smoke unit full of fluid (24-48 drops) is not lasting more than ~30mins, correct?
• Smoke fluid types to stay away from (non-Lionel obviously)?
• Smoke unit capacities by locomotive tend to vary, correct? 

@LionelAG posted:

Thanks all for the responses!  Not anything hugely surprising in everyone's remarks.  Follow up questions for those deeply in the know:

• Does shutting of the smoke unit from Cab-2 really any different from shutting down the smoke unit from the manual switch on the locomotive?
• None that is significant.  Obviously, the manual switch makes sure it won't come on by accident if that's an issue with you or your running environment.
• For regular/extended running, do most of you keep the smoke units off? 
• Depends on the environment and the audience.
  
• A smoke unit full of fluid (24-48 drops) is not lasting more than ~30mins, correct?
• 30 minutes is excellent if you get that much out of a single fill
• Smoke fluid types to stay away from (non-Lionel obviously)?
• IMO, that's horse pucky.  I use JT's Megasteam as to many others here.
  
• Smoke unit capacities by locomotive tend to vary, correct? 
• Correct, there are many sizes of smoke units.

@LionelAG posted:

I’d like to get a feeling from other Lionel Legacy Engine owners on the performance of their smoke output.  Most of my engines are steam with the exceptions being 2 GG-1.  Although not an owner of any, I understand MTH locomotives really put out the smoke.

Adding smoke fluid:

• 20 drops is the recommended amount per all the owner’s manuals.  Some engines require about double (40 drops) to get going if they are bone dry I find that with our Legacy locos, about 25 drops is the proper amount once the unit has been filled and run previously.
• A whole squeeze dropper (delivered with a Lionel locomotive) is about 50 drops. This is probably about what is needed the first fill as the wick is bone dry. I actually use 40 instead of 50. I then use 25 for future fillings. 
• What’s the real consequence of overfilling? Smoke fluid getting everywhere inside of your loco's electronics.
• Adding drop-by-drop vs. squeezing a full dropper in. I use a needle-point filler and do it slowly. The needle allows me to get the fluid down into the batting (unless the smoke unit has a offset funnel) and that ensures that the smoke fluid doesn't creep and travel along pathways that it shouldn't. I also find that letting the unit sit for a while after filling produces better smoke than say filling and immediately running. Not tremendously better but slightly.
• I hear there is a lot of variability in visible smoke unit output.  Is this true?  If so, why? The arrangement of the batting to allow maximum airflow as well as the path (straight or having to flow through an offset funnel) can impact the flow of smoke out of the stack,
• Is it okay to run the smoke units dry?  And is it best to shut the smoke unit off when it is out of smoke fluid or does it even matter? Not good to do. The batting will char and no longer be absorbent and properly wick the fluid up to the heating element. 
• How much do you really need to baby these units for long life and efficiency? Even in the best of conditions, I've come to grips with the fact that a smoke unit requires some regular attention. Swapping out the batting is usually not a demanding task. The nature of a super-hot element against the batting is going to produce some level of charring.
• How much run time between adding more smoke fluid will you typically have with a smoke unit on high?  10 mins?  30 mins?  60 mins?  How variable is this? On high, 10 min. might sound close to what I see. Some say to let the unit cool a bit before refilling as the cold fluid hitting the hot element can cause it to crystalize. Not sure if this is true but I recall it being said.
• Is there a difference in the handling of smoke units for a Diesel/Electric vs. Steam Locomotive? No.

Are there any NoNo’s  for modern Lionel smoke units that I need to take into consideration? I choose to use Lionel Premium as I find it just produces the most smoke. However, many swear by JT's as well.

Just trying to learn best practices for my stable of beauties!  Any feedback is appreciated.

It’s horse puckey until you need it repaired under warranty. It’s certainly up to each individual but Lionel policy in the past is to use only Lionel fluid. So in the interest of protecting my warranty that is what I use throughout that period. After that I use what ever I feel like. Truth be told though the Lionel fluid is fine. 

I figured I’d post the final list.  Thanks for everyone giving their feedback on this!

Consolidated List – Best Practices for Lionel Smoke Units in Legacy/TMCC engines:

• Don’t run the smoke units dry!  Don’t run locomotive with the smoke unit activated if you don’t intend to add fluid.  Use mechanical switch or Legacy soft key to turn off smoke unit
• Smoke reservoirs vary in capacity and output from engine to engine; size/orientation of smoke unit in locomotive.
• General capacity:  25 drops of fluid is a “normal” fill for Legacy locos; 40-50 drops if the wick is bone dry.  Overfilling runs smoke fluid over internal electronics; makes a mess.
• Best to keep the wick moist for long life.
• After a session of running with smoke unit on, allow the engine to cool down first and then put 4-5 drops of smoke fluid into the smoke unit when finished to keep wick moist
• Use needle-point filler and add slowly to avoid overflow, air-bubble.  Get the needle past the heating element and down to the wick/batting.
• Over time, a regularly used smoke unit does require maintenance (service center); wick or batting replacement
• Locomotive smokes better if you let the unit sit for a while after filling (vs. running immediately after adding)
• Lionel Train Fluid (required to preserve factory warranty) or JT’s Megasteam fluid are most commonly used fluids.
• 30 mins is a good run from a single fluid fill
• Mike Reagan video - Smoke Units 101

Feel free to suggest other items missed.

LionelAG; all good info; have rebuild quite a few of the 5V AC regulator smoke units on steamers; changed to 8OHM element and "loose string wicking"; no problems with your info.  Just curious if anyone notices a change in smoke output with speed; is there more smoke at speed than at slow chuffing?  I think I see a change but cannot imagine the regulator changes element voltage with speed; just asking.  Falcon70

At one point there was a chart posted about the automatic smoke volume control for Legacy locomotives, and there is indeed a change in smoke volume when you are moving vs. when you're stopped.

Increased speed would have a small effect on smoke production, but climbing a grade pulling a string of cars typically produces a noticable change. This is because the engine is working harder which you can see on a z4k ammeter; the current might increase from say 1 amp up to 1.5. The motor driver board senses this and serial data to the AC reg causes it to increase voltage to the heater, thus more smoke. When working properly it is a neat effect. Lionel started using AC regs in about 2003 on higher end tmcc engines, and on into Legacy engines. Arguably the AC reg boards are somewhat fragile and seem to fail often IMO.

Making big smoke is all about heat energy delivered to the heating resistor, and it takes in the range of 10-12 watts to do this in my experience. So running command at 18 volts you want to see a .6 to .7 amp load increase when smoke is switched on, especially for steamers. Less for diesels because they don't need to smoke nearly as much to look realistic.

The downside of big heat to the resistor is you really need to prevent running the smoke unit dry, lest you get charring and scorching of the wick material. So adding 10-15 drops of fluid (about 3/4" in a dropper) frequently, whenever the smoke starts to noticably decrease, is a good idea.

The real detriment of adding too much fluid is that it will overflow into the fan compartment where it will get into the motor bearings and likely trash the motor. So if you added 10-15 drops of fluid, and it won't smoke, DONT ADD MORE! The problem is not lack of fluid. Either the resistor is burned out (unlikely), or it's not getting power, or the fan is not moving air for some reason.

Just some of my observations about smoke units, and hey, I'm no expert!

Rod

Mike Reagan explains the Legacy smoke unit "stepping" process in this video.

There was also a nice chart Marty, but I can't find it now.

From personal experience I can tell you that overfilling smoke fluid will cause it to leak onto the board that contains the driver for the electrocuplers and short them out. $50 learning experience.

@third rail posted:

From personal experience I can tell you that overfilling smoke fluid will cause it to leak onto the board that contains the driver for the electrocuplers and short them out. $50 learning experience.

You got off easy Bill!

Rod

Need some help with a 11104/Legacy Big Boy with the 5V regulator for the smoke unit element power; changed the element from 6 ohm to 8 ohm and the wicking; smokes good but it randomly shuts off power to the element; get it back on line using AUX 1 + 0 (reset).  Will smoke fine and then dump again about 5 min after the reset; should I replace the regulator?  Thanks for the help; Falcon70

Replace the regulator, that is one of the many failure modes.

Thanks John; will do; Falcon70

@LionelAG posted:

I figured I’d post the final list.  Thanks for everyone giving their feedback on this!

Consolidated List – Best Practices for Lionel Smoke Units in Legacy/TMCC engines:

• Don’t run the smoke units dry!  Don’t run locomotive with the smoke unit activated if you don’t intend to add fluid.  Use mechanical switch or Legacy soft key to turn off smoke unit
• Smoke reservoirs vary in capacity and output from engine to engine; size/orientation of smoke unit in locomotive.
• General capacity:  25 drops of fluid is a “normal” fill for Legacy locos; 40-50 drops if the wick is bone dry.  Overfilling runs smoke fluid over internal electronics; makes a mess.
• Best to keep the wick moist for long life.
• After a session of running with smoke unit on, put 4-5 drops of smoke fluid into the smoke unit when finished to keep wick moist
• Use needle-point filler and add slowly to avoid overflow, air-bubble.  Get the needle past the heating element and down to the wick/batting.
• Over time, a regularly used smoke unit does require maintenance (service center); wick or batting replacement
• Locomotive smokes better if you let the unit sit for a while after filling (vs. running immediately after adding)
• Lionel Train Fluid (required to preserve factory warranty) or JT’s Megasteam fluid are most commonly used fluids.
• 30 mins is a good run from a single fluid fill
• Mike Reagan video - Smoke Units 101

Feel free to suggest other items missed.

LionelAG - Regarding the 5th bullet of your point form summary above, I would clarify that (following a session of running with smoke unit on) the engine should be allowed to cool down before adding the 4-5 drops (in accordance with Mike Reagan's attached Smoke Units 101 video).

@PH1975 posted:

LionelAG - Regarding the 5th bullet of your point form summary above, I would clarify that (following a session of running with smoke unit on) the engine should be allowed to cool down before adding the 4-5 drops (in accordance with Mike Reagan's attached Smoke Units 101 video).

Update made.  Thx.